93 replies to this topic

[garagetinkerer]

Honestly, anyone will be hard-pressed to deny the competitive advantage Mercedes has had over others in last 3 years. While others may have been waiting for championship to be over one way or the other, depending on which driver/ team they liked, i was hoping for a new record to be made. A record that possibly eclipsed the win percentage record of McLaren was very much possible last year, & this year, yet they didn't do it.

 

19 wins from 21 races is incredibly impressive. So what do you guys think?

 

thank you for your opinions.

[Riverside]

I would say it's not far off the most dominant.

[garagetinkerer]

I would say it's not far off the most dominant.

MP4/4 did end up winning more percentage wise, but damn, this car... 

[PilotPlant91]

In term of pace differential, this car is on another planet.

 

And take into account that most of the time Merc only run 80% of their PU output on sunday, its just scarily dominant.

[Marklar]

Ironically I believe that the W05 & W06 were even more dominant despite not winning as many races.

[Riverside]

I'm utter sick of Mercedes dominance....

[garagetinkerer]

Ironically I believe that the W05 & W06 were even more dominant despite not winning as many races.

 

I think Mercedes cars in last 3 years have been well & truly much ahead of their competitors. The token system regulating development was always going to make this a more herculean task, than it already was. I've been quite critical of the token system since it was first spoken of.

[garagetinkerer]

I'm utter sick of Mercedes dominance....

I wouldn't even mind, if development was open season for all. I'm a nerd, and i love seeing engineers doing what they do best.

[Marklar]

I doubt that the engine is the main reason for their success. Ferrari has apparently closed the gap in that department completely, yet they are way off the pace. Of course not everyone is doing an equally good job as I'm sure that Red Bull would be close on the same engine.

The whole package is incredible and while I believe that this years car is not as dominant anymore as last year they are also owning the others in terms of strategy this year, won many close races in that way.

With that in mind I would be shocked if they would drop far behind next year.

[minime]

I doubt that the engine is the main reason for their success. Ferrari has apparently closed the gap in that department completely, yet they are way off the pace. Of course not everyone is doing an equally good job as I'm sure that Red Bull would be close on the same engine.

The whole package is incredible and while I believe that this years car is not as dominant anymore as last year they are also owning the others in terms of strategy this year, won many close races in that way.

With that in mind I would be shocked if they would drop far behind next year.

I keep seeing references to Ferrari catching up, no proof though, except they don't seem to do much winning which is proof in itself I guess. 

[garagetinkerer]

I doubt that the engine is the main reason for their success. Ferrari has apparently closed the gap in that department completely, yet they are way off the pace. Of course not everyone is doing an equally good job as I'm sure that Red Bull would be close on the same engine.

The whole package is incredible and while I believe that this years car is not as dominant anymore as last year they are also owning the others in terms of strategy this year, won many close races in that way.

With that in mind I would be shocked if they would drop far behind next year.

have they now? 

 

In term of pace differential, this car is on another planet.

 

And take into account that most of the time Merc only run 80% of their PU output on sunday, its just scarily dominant.

 

Merely 80% of PU output is being used. 

[Izzyeviel]

Considering it was so dominant, they were always worried about failures and stuff.

[Atreiu]

I think Mercedes cars in last 3 years have been well & truly much ahead of their competitors. The token system regulating development was always going to make this a more herculean task, than it already was. I've been quite critical of the token system since it was first spoken of.

 

I think it's a better alternative than a full freeze or unlimited development.

 

But it should be tweaked to have less successful manufacturers have more token than thse most successful.

[w1Y]

Considering how vettel has been the last couple of years I would probably say that Red Bull he won titles in was as dominant.

[TomNokoe]

Says it all that Mercedes will be slightly ticked off they didn't take 100% pole and win in any one season

[garagetinkerer]

Considering how vettel has been the last couple of years I would probably say that Red Bull he won titles in was as dominant.

RBR had their strengths & their weaknesses, with there being times where no matter who the driver, they would've lost to better cars on the day. Then look at races from last 3 years in comparison, & note in first 2014-2015 they won 16 out of 19 races. This year they have won 19 out of 21 races.

 

Sure, you probably don't like Vettel, but can you at least be objective about something like this which rarely happens? Mercedes is perhaps as dominant as Williams/ McLaren from their better days. Heck, even Ferrari's 6 on the trot with Schumacher weren't this dominant. In one of their most dominant years, they did one amazing race at MagnyCours, where they stopped 4 times to beat Alonso who stopped thrice. Mind, this wasn't the only time where they pipped an opponent on strategy, but is one glaring example of such which is hard to miss. They almost always had to push even in their best years (2002 & 2004).

 

This is not even a complaint about Mercedes' dominance. I'm slightly puzzled/ dismayed (a bit of both), that while Mercedes should have had broken that MP4/4's record, they didn't. I'm saying Mercedes should have won more, and i'd have liked to see that happening given the car.

[SoapBoxCart]

I'd say the mercedes this year was more dominant than the MP4/4. The MP4/4 stats look better because it was piloted by Prost and Senna.

[Retrofly]

Merc is way more dominant than the RBR.

 

The RBR was a good car with periods of utter domination but Merc were head and shoulders above the rest for nearly the whole 3 years.

 

At least during the RBR years someone else winning was more of a possibility, for parts of it. I admit some of the time the RBR was untouchable, but overall the Merc has continued to be more dominant than the RBR was.

[garagetinkerer]

I think it's a better alternative than a full freeze or unlimited development.

 

But it should be tweaked to have less successful manufacturers have more token than thse most successful.

Has this done anything for the teams? I thought supply of newer engines is in fact about same, or more expensive than V10s/ V8s for a customer. No? Cost cutting, not just for manufacturers, but the teams who buy from them was the reason such measures were put into place, or were said to be a reason to do so, or so i thought. I loved development wars... you just didn't know what to expect... now if you turn up at Australia or wherever they'll start with a good package, more than likely you're winning through the season.

 

At any rate... going back to topic, what do you think of subject at hand? Probably most dominant car ever?

[Archer]

They are so dominant that red bull and ferrari had trouble to catch them in abu dhabi even having in mind that Hamilton sometimes lapped 9 seconds slower than the pole, and Rosberg was able to lap 1 second faster than Verstappen to overcut him with old tyres vs new tyres. They could have put Lauda and Toto in this cars and they would have won the world championship anyways. This last 3 years must have been boring even to the Hamiton and Rosberg fans, because in 2004 I was a huge Schumacher fan and even I was bored to see him win without having to put a fight, to me, the 2004 world championship felt like if it had no value whatsoever because of that, and he was my idol. Let's hope no team dominates the next season, it would be the death of the sport if we come from a red bull domination, to a mercedes domination, to another team domination, I'm really tired to see cars 1 second faster than any other car on the grid, and team mates that having a disaster of a race can still finish comfortably in second place in every race making it seem like a great performance.

[chunder27]

No, FW 14, FW 11

 

MP4/4 were just as if not more dominant.

[drionita]

[...] This last 3 years must have been boring even to the Hamiton and Rosberg fans, because in 2004 I was a huge Schumacher fan and even I was bored to see him win without having to put a fight, to me, the 2004 world championship felt like if it had no value whatsoever because of that, and he was my idol. Let's hope no team dominates the next season, it would be the death of the sport if we come from a red bull domination, to a mercedes domination, to another team domination, I'm really tired to see cars 1 second faster than any other car on the grid, and team mates that having a disaster of a race can still finish comfortably in second place in every race making it seem like a great performance.

 

No, as an Italian Merc fan I was not bored. I dreamt about this successful F1 campaign since Group C era, and now I'm enjoying it. But, while I know that such an utter dominance is a truly joy for the engineers that designed car and engine and that, at the end of day, this is a technological challenge, I realize that it could be mortal for the concept of motorsport as for the nowadays parameter, the show. In other times, 30/20 years ago, F1 people would have thought "wow, what a car, let's work hard to reach it". Now it's "wow, what a bore, let's change the rules".

[Nonesuch]

So what do you guys think?

 

If we define modern F1 as since, say, 1980 then yes - Mercedes has been dominant as not seen before.

 

That wins percentage eludes them, but they've basically kept this up for three years straight.

 

Wins:

93,8% McLaren 1988

90,5% Mercedes 2016

88,2% Ferrari 2002

84.2% Mercedes 2014

84,2% Mercedes 2015

 

Poles:

95,2% Mercedes 2016

94,7% Red Bull 2011

94,7% Mercedes 2014

94,7% Mercedes 2015

 

Podiums:

84,2% Mercedes 2015

81,6% Mercedes 2014

80,6% Ferrari 2004

79,4% Ferrari 2002

 

Points:

86,0% Mercedes 2015

85,8% Mercedes 2014

84,7% Mercedes 2016

82,9% McLaren 1988

 

Fastest laps:

77,8% Ferrari 2004

72,2% Ferrari 2008

70,6% Ferrari 2000

70,6% Ferrari 2002

70,6% Ferrari 2007

 

Please correct the numbers where I've erred. It wouldn't be the first time.

Edited by Nonesuch, 29 November 2016 - 08:36.

[screamingV16]

I'd say the mercedes this year was more dominant than the MP4/4. The MP4/4 stats look better because it was piloted by Prost and Senna.

 

Really, what races did the MP4/4 win that were purely down to the driver and not it's inherent performance advantage? Reliabilty has to be considered part of the package of a dominant car just as much as speed is. The MP4/4 only failed to win all races in 1988 due to external factors and nothing to do with the car. At least one victory was lost this year by Mereceds due to their unreliability.

[MJB5990]

Pure pace wise, I think the W05 was the most dominant of the three cars. Then the W06 which was more reliable and finally the W07 which was a great car out in front but struggled to get through the pack aswell as its predecessors.

[HP]

Considering how vettel has been the last couple of years I would probably say that Red Bull he won titles in was as dominant.

No. For starters, the engine wasn't the best of the field. And when in the pack, the RBR performed not as good as the Mercedes.

[Clrnc]

Pure pace wise, I think the W05 was the most dominant of the three cars. Then the W06 which was more reliable and finally the W07 which was a great car out in front but struggled to get through the pack aswell as its predecessors.

Wouldn't disagree with that. 

[PlayboyRacer]

Still MP4/4 in my opinion.

With this years Mercedes a close second. It was miles ahead generally, on a planet of its own.

[Rinehart]

I think the Merc was more dominant than we ever realised. 

If they'd enforced a clear optimised 1-2 policy, they'd probably have won every race. 

I think Merc ran the 2 cars equal, but with loads of performance in hand. 

It will be a miracle if they're not at the front with the new regs.

[string158]

It'd be great to see what this years car could have done with the engine turned up to 100%...

 

I'd be suprised if Mercs arent at the sharp end next year. 

[noikeee]

Honestly, anyone will be hard-pressed to deny the competitive advantage Mercedes has had over others in last 3 years. While others may have been waiting for championship to be over one way or the other, depending on which driver/ team they liked, i was hoping for a new record to be made. A record that possibly eclipsed the win percentage record of McLaren was very much possible last year, & this year, yet they didn't do it.

 

19 wins from 21 races is incredibly impressive. So what do you guys think?

 

thank you for your opinions.

 

How can it be the most dominant, they're so worried that Ferrari will catch them, and how they're sweating all the races as the car is running so close to failure, and how Verstappen is keeping them nervous, and and and...

 

[SenorSjon]

MP4/4 did end up winning more percentage wise, but damn, this car... 

 

 

I'd say the mercedes this year was more dominant than the MP4/4. The MP4/4 stats look better because it was piloted by Prost and Senna.

 

I think the McLaren was more dominant. That car was made in an era with unlimited testing and development, whereas the Mercedes had a locked in token-advantage PU-wise. They invested heavily in their 2014 car and reaped the rewards. In the past Ferrari could out-develop others during the year, but since the testing ban, that has never happened again.

 

Really, what races did the MP4/4 win that were purely down to the driver and not it's inherent performance advantage? Reliabilty has to be considered part of the package of a dominant car just as much as speed is. The MP4/4 only failed to win all races in 1988 due to external factors and nothing to do with the car. At least one victory was lost this year by Mereceds due to their unreliability.

 

They lost only 2 races:

Spain: crash

Malaysia: Rosberg was spun by Vettel and Hamilton had an engine failure. If Vettel had spatial awareness, Rosberg would have won Malaysia.

[string158]

How can it be the most dominant, they're so worried that Ferrari will catch them, and how they're sweating all the races as the car is running so close to failure, and how Verstappen is keeping them nervous, and and and...

 

 

It was a tough battle out there.... 

[Kristian]

This year's car was scarily good - had the collision in Barcelona not happened and the drivers had not hit problems in Sepang, then they'd have won every race. 

 

Unlike last year, for example, where sometimes it was beatable - e.g. in Singapore. 

[PlatenGlass]

The MP4/4 only failed to win all races in 1988 due to external factors and nothing to do with the car. At least one victory was lost this year by Mereceds due to their unreliability.

There were two McLarens at Monza in 1988. Their defeat wasn't entirely down to Senna's collision with Schlesser. A lack of reliability took care of the other one.

On the flipside, Rosberg didn't break down in Malaysia.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 29 November 2016 - 10:53.

[sopa]

Ironically I believe that the W05 & W06 were even more dominant despite not winning as many races.

 

I tend to agree. While W07 still obviously was the class of the field, I felt the W05 and W06 were even more so.

 

The telling part for me were the lack of 1-2 finishes for much of the season. When something went slightly wrong, Hamilton or Rosberg could finish 3rd or 4th. In 2014 and 2015 they easily cruised to second even in a slightly handicapped race, bar some exceptions.

[superden]

Nope. That remains the MP4/4.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Like others, I actually think the W05 was the most dominant only for the fact that Ferrari won races legitimately in 2015. RB tended to be a little closer this year on average than anyone else was in 2014/15.

 

Its been the most dominant period though, yeah. Way more so than Ferrari of 2000-2004 and RB 2010-2013.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 29 November 2016 - 11:28.

[sopa]

This year's car was scarily good - had the collision in Barcelona not happened and the drivers had not hit problems in Sepang, then they'd have won every race. 

 

Unlike last year, for example, where sometimes it was beatable - e.g. in Singapore. 

 

Singapore 2015 is probably the worst performance Mercedes has shown during the last 3 years.

 

But there were some pretty close races in 2016 as well, which somehow narrowly went in Mercedes' favour - i.e Monaco, Canada. So I'd say on a couple of occasions Mercedes was as beatable as in 2015, just the difference is that in those races Merc had a superior strategy (2016), while in, say, 2015 Malaysia Ferrari had the better strategy. Swings and roundabouts.

[tifosi]

Nothing is even close to as dominant as the '88 McLaren.

Not only did this car finish 1-2 in just about every race, they routinely lapped the field.

The only thing that ever prevented a 1-2 was mechanical problems (and they were FAR more common in those days) or accidents.

[w1Y]

RBR had their strengths & their weaknesses, with there being times where no matter who the driver, they would've lost to better cars on the day. Then look at races from last 3 years in comparison, & note in first 2014-2015 they won 16 out of 19 races. This year they have won 19 out of 21 races.

Sure, you probably don't like Vettel, but can you at least be objective about something like this which rarely happens? Mercedes is perhaps as dominant as Williams/ McLaren from their better days. Heck, even Ferrari's 6 on the trot with Schumacher weren't this dominant. In one of their most dominant years, they did one amazing race at MagnyCours, where they stopped 4 times to beat Alonso who stopped thrice. Mind, this wasn't the only time where they pipped an opponent on strategy, but is one glaring example of such which is hard to miss. They almost always had to push even in their best years (2002 & 2004).

This is not even a complaint about Mercedes' dominance. I'm slightly puzzled/ dismayed (a bit of both), that while Mercedes should have had broken that MP4/4's record, they didn't. I'm saying Mercedes should have won more, and i'd have liked to see that happening given the car.

To the contrary as I actually like Vettel but you can't deny that his performances of late add extra credibility to how good that Red Bull was. Maybe saying it's on par with the merc is stretching it but it was a dominant car that's for sure.

[micktosin]

I'd say the mercedes this year was more dominant than the MP4/4. The MP4/4 stats look better because it was piloted by Prost and Senna.

Prost & Senna aren't that much better than Lewis/Alonso if at all. It's all academic with different era and all. I must say it is a lot easier to stand during Senna/Prost era than it is now. 

[wrighty]

I'd need to have another look back at the records on the FW14 but i do think that in terms of the performance they still had in hand with the Merc then possibly yes it was the most dominant car of the modern (post-DFV) era of F1 because the level of comparative reliability of the field means that in theory more cars should have been a factor yet 1-2 has been the default result.

[Lotus53B]

I'm pinning my hopes on my belief that it's only the engine of the Merc that was its route to success, we often saw that when it was in traffic it struggled to get past other cars, and that with an increased reliance on aero next year, we may have /less/ dominance.

I still think it will be a little one-sided, but to nowhere near the same extent as the last 3 years.

[peroa]

I'm pinning my hopes on my belief that it's only the engine of the Merc that was its route to success, we often saw that when it was in traffic it struggled to get past other cars, and that with an increased reliance on aero next year, we may have /less/ dominance.

I still think it will be a little one-sided, but to nowhere near the same extent as the last 3 years.

IMHO merc have the best aero of the field and I see no reason for it not to continue unless they pull a silver donkey a la macca.

RBR might get close but I'd not pin too much hope on that if you look at the past 3 years, same for Ferrari.

[Nonesuch]

Its been the most dominant period though, yeah. Way more so than Ferrari of 2000-2004 and RB 2010-2013.

 

These were certainly periods in which the teams mentioned played a big role and won the titles (Ferrari won in 1999, too!), but periods of domination seems a step too far.

 

Ferrari won "only" 58% in 2000, 53% in 2001 (this actually surprised me), and 50% in 2003.

 

Red Bull in 2010 won less than half the races, and in 2012 they got to only 35%. Thirty-five!
 

[robefc]

I think the Merc was more dominant than we ever realised. 

If they'd enforced a clear optimised 1-2 policy, they'd probably have won every race. 

I think Merc ran the 2 cars equal, but with loads of performance in hand. 

It will be a miracle if they're not at the front with the new regs.

 

I'm not sure if there is another example but Bahrain 14 really showed of their pure speed advantage. The gap they pulled over everyone else whilst still battling for position was pretty awesome.

[LORDBYRON]

The McLaren MP4/4 is Formula 1's Most Dominant Car 

[OO7]

have they now? 

 

 

Merely 80% of PU output is being used. 

That is not the case and if it is, the other teams are also running at about 80% of their peak power outputs during the races.

[OO7]

I'd say the mercedes this year was more dominant than the MP4/4. The MP4/4 stats look better because it was piloted by Prost and Senna.

The Mercedes cars have been more dominant than the MP4/4 in reliability, nothing more.