11 replies to this topic

[Wes350]

So this is based on a short exchange with Dr.Austin in another thread awhile back…

 

The Michelins in WEC are touted for their ability for the driver to push on them all through a single fuel load – and even ‘double stint” them without hitting a “performance cliff”.

 

Much of that is down to the WEC being basically a "refueling" formula.

 

Where you have to enter the pits to re-fuel to finish the race distance.

 

So the tires can be designed to perform optimally within a set “fuel window”.

 

As opposed to post 2009 F1 when refueling pit stops are not needed, and pit stops have to be induced by tire degradation?

 

But it seems that it would always be better to nurse your tires to a degree and not “push” the entire time.

 

Is it possible to have a tire "Degradation" formula where the drivers won't have to nurse their tires?

 

 

Or do we go to a single set of tires for one race…

 

Dr. Austin, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:45, said:

For years Formula One ran entire race distances on one set of tires and no refueling. As far back as 1987 the Indianapolis 500 was won on the tires that started the race, so it can easily be done.

 

For many years it was part of the skill set of a formula One driver to manage the tires so you had something to race with the end. That's where Prost really outshined everyone (along with great fuel management).

...

...My personal preference would be to have Pirelli make a tire that would last the distance with a little care, and make the pit speed 30mph to discourage stopping.

 

 

But would the current crop of F1 fandom that got into the sport during the recent refueling era take to a more old school format…

Edited by Wes350, 14 December 2016 - 19:36.

[Otaku]

I'd be happy with that. Dont like the 30mph limit that much tbh, I would prefer 1 man/tyre or even 1 man/side of the car in the pits so they will "naturally" become a bit longer. 

[FPV GTHO]

We had single race tyres with refuelling and nobody liked it, I don't think an absence of refuelling will drastically change things. The cars need the chance to have big performance gap to get overtaking through the race. IMO unless you go to reverse grid qualifying, you're just going to get processions.

[muramasa]

you dont need to see WEC and michlin, it's just that this current pirelli F1 tyre is an exception in the whole racing history, no racing series ever had and has tyre like pirelli.

[f1paul]

1 man on 1 tyre for pit stops and tyres that will not degrade for about 75% of the race

[Clatter]

We had single race tyres with refuelling and nobody liked it, I don't think an absence of refuelling will drastically change things. The cars need the chance to have big performance gap to get overtaking through the race. IMO unless you go to reverse grid qualifying, you're just going to get processions.

I thought the only one who didn't like the no tyre stop formula was Bernie, as there was not enough pit action for the VIPs who sit in the prime seats overlooking the pits.

[muramasa]

 

Is it possible to have a tire "Degradation" formula where the drivers won't have to nurse their tires?

 

No, it's physically impossible because degrade means thermal deterioration. Dont have/need to nurse means tires don't degrade at its working temp.

Actually any tyres degrade as well, not just wear, if pushed harder but this pirelli is way over the top.

[anbeck]

If money weren't a problem: let Michelin bring all tyre compounds to each race and let drivers choose whichever combination they like (maybe the last 3 sets only on race day). If they want to race without a single stop on the hard compound, fine. If they want to make 3 stops on the super soft, also fine. No mandatory pitstops, no mandatory compounds. I think that might give us a little variation on tyre strategies.

 

But actually, I think the tyre nursing and fuel saving and everything is not even a problem of Pirelli or the rule makers. I think it is actually the consequence of computer simulation programs. Nowadays, the teams computers are fed with all the information they need to calculate the exact race time. The engineers just know what lap time they have to do in any single lap to get to the best position. Why carry 2 kg more fuel that could allow you to race harder during the race, if carrying less fuel but driving more economically is quicker?

 

Sure, Pirelli and FIA asking Pirelli to provide certain kinds of tyres is part of the equation. But if teams really wanted to race hard (on a harder compound with a little more fuel, as I think most teams started most races with less than the 100kg allowed), they could. 

 

As we cannot turn back the time on computers, maybe Pirelli could set some incentives to vary strategies (as the FIA asked them to do this year). But I am afraid, the computer people will still be the biggest influence in how the races unfold, no matter what kind of tyres Pirelli brings. 

[Wes350]

...

 

But actually, I think the tyre nursing and fuel saving and everything is not even a problem of Pirelli or the rule makers. I think it is actually the consequence of computer simulation programs. Nowadays, the teams computers are fed with all the information they need to calculate the exact race time. The engineers just know what lap time they have to do in any single lap to get to the best position. Why carry 2 kg more fuel that could allow you to race harder during the race, if carrying less fuel but driving more economically is quicker?

...

 

 

 

Yeah I can see that running to projections is a bigger problem than most realize.  The problem with the projections seems to be that they never have enough fuel to push or overtake if events in the race become unpredictable (safety cars, etc...)

[FPV GTHO]

I thought the only one who didn't like the no tyre stop formula was Bernie, as there was not enough pit action for the VIPs who sit in the prime seats overlooking the pits.

I'm sure Bridgestone and Ferrari made plenty of noise about it. There were also issues with under what circumstances he teams could make tyre changes.

[Atreiu]

I'd like to see a return to a 2010 like scenario. F1 had tyres which were durable and performed well over a distance, but also suffered some degradation. At some races it would have been reasonable to do the race on one set of tyres - Monaco, Monza - at others it would have been possible but not entirely reasonable - Sepang, Istanbul.

 

What really hurt the racing that season was the mandatory pit stop so each driver raced both tyres during the race. That rule alone neutered basically all possible variances in strategy from qualifying to the race itself. It was always better to qualify on softs, race a little, switch to hards, go to the flag. That was it.

 

Without it we could have seen more no stop gambles, which would backfire or not, and also more risk taking in qualifying, qualify on hards and then try to race without stoping. Or maybe drivers would still have usually stoppped once, but just ignore the hard tyre.

 

But now we'll never really get to know.

 

I also remember 2010 being much quiter in regards to puntures, delaminations, sudden failures, kerb abuse while lap times and average speeds were terrific.

[minime]

It should be a free tyre supply, run what you like as it used to be, I thought this was supposed to be motor racing not a pit stop challenge. Part of motor racing is configuring the car including the tyres to get to the finish line first without artificial crap like degrading tyres and limited fuel. F1 is supposed to be the ultimate motor race and these artificial intrusions make it far from that as the category has continually suppressed and banned anything that makes racing interesting and then they wonder why it has become dull and dreary. If it had been a free category the way it used to be it is unlikely MB would have dominated the way they have in the last three or so years as completely as they have. It was predictable that one team would get an advantage and because the rules say so no other team was allowed to catch up. Rip up the rule book, ban wings of any description and let's see some innovation in car design. A bit off topic? I think the question is redundant, the problem should not exist. 

Edited by minime, 15 December 2016 - 00:45.