42 replies to this topic

[BittenHeroes]

The years I followed F1 most passionately were the mid-90s until around 2010.

In this time, Mike Gascoyne worked for many different teams and seemed to be rated very highly by a lot of people. 

But the results some of his cars achieved were less than convincing. His first proper Jordan (2000) wasn't reliable, Renault's real success came after Mike had gone, and Toyota never improved despite all the investment. Did he turn up any trees at Spyker/Force India and or Caterham? Not that I remember.  

So how good was he really? Worth all the millions he was paid, or was he 'stealing a living' for many a year?

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts about this.

[FullThrottleF1]

Yes, he ruined Caterham with the switch to the Coanda Exhaust in Silverstone 2012.

[TomNokoe]

Yes

[SpartanChas]

What's he doing now anyway? seem to remember him sailing around the world, but not sure if I unfollowed him on twitter or he went quiet.

[Richard Jenkins]

He was a very good self-publicist (indeed still is) and not afraid to hype himself, but in today's Formula 1, that's no bad thng as if that gets you to where you want to go, then who can blame him?

 

The main reason I always felt his generally disappointing results were glossed over and he was rated higher than he should be was down to having the right friends in the media. But again, kudos to MG to then exploit that to the maximum once he'd found that was the case.

 

What's he doing now? This - http://www.oldracing...s/Mike_Gascoyne

[Rentta]

Yes, he ruined Caterham with the switch to the Coanda Exhaust in Silverstone 2012.

 

Based on articles i have read, caterham ruined themselves from the start, by trying to act like a big team without being a big team and lacking any sort of direction. Mike probably played a role in it, but i highly doubt it was just him. 

[messy]

Responsible for some very tidy mid-grid F1 cars over the years. Caterham was rotten from the foundations up.

[Kristian]

To be honest, Caterham could have hired Adrian Newey and they'd have been terrible - it was a doomed operation from the start.

 

I think Gascoigne was a very competent designer. His effect on Jordan was pretty immediate, as at Benetton/Renault, but then his move to Toyota ruined his reputation somewhat. Again, I think this was more down to Toyota culture than his talent. Also moving between these teams in such quick succession gave him somewhat of a mercenary reputation with fans, thus he probably is not as appreciated as he should be. 

 

I think if he was hired now he would be an asset. 

[Nathan]

With a small design team, he was pretty good.  But with a large design team, I think he went off the rails.  Too much ego. Something like Gary Anderson.

Edited by Nathan, 28 December 2016 - 22:52.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

I think the question should be asked of him directly. 

[TF110]

To be honest, Caterham could have hired Adrian Newey and they'd have been terrible - it was a doomed operation from the start.
 
I think Gascoigne was a very competent designer. His effect on Jordan was pretty immediate, as at Benetton/Renault, but then his move to Toyota ruined his reputation somewhat. Again, I think this was more down to Toyota culture than his talent. Also moving between these teams in such quick succession gave him somewhat of a mercenary reputation with fans, thus he probably is not as appreciated as he should be. 
 
I think if he was hired now he would be an asset.

Toyota was finally able to get into a winning position around his time but the drivers were never a winning pair. Ralf after the crashes wasn't the same and Trulli was more of a qualifying guy. But the cars under Gascoyne were never as good as the 2005 Toyota. They didn't get back to podium finishers until 2008 when Pascal Vasselon took over.

[DogEarred]

Standing in the middle of design offices shouting "I'm in a sacking mood today. Who am I going to sack?" would also have been a tad detrimental his reputation.

[Baddoer]

They did stole Force India windtunnel model if my memory serves right for first Caterham/Lotus which kinda says it all.

[PayasYouRace]

 

I think Gascoigne was a very competent designer. 

 

Like Ross Brown?

[sopa]

Gascoyne certainly had a fair amount of impact on Jordan and Benetton/Renault, and the Toyota TF105 is probably the best car the team ever had. But since then he slightly fizzled out. Though I do think Gascoyne played some role in the turnaround Force India had during 2009, by which time he already was gone, but he set the foundations during 2008.

 

Caterham? I suspect the whole management was a slight mess.

 

Character-wise it is mentioned that Mike was somewhat of an ego. Maybe it influenced as well.   Because chances are after some serious impressions he got carried away and thought he was the best designer in the business and could make any demands on teams he wants. But it didn't quite work out like that. Which means he hasn't had the longevity like some other technical people in the business have had. Peaked early. 

[TazioRaikkonen]

Well, Toyota's politics didn't let us see what could have been a very strong partnership between Trulli and Gascoyne. Those 2 worked well together.

[sopa]

Well yeah. I do think Gascoyne was the best designer Toyota ever had, even though he messed up their 2006 car. And by 2009 Toyota was also already somewhat coming back to the fore in F1 competition.

 

But the problem for Toyota was also that they failed to attract top talents. I think the move of Newey, and the likes, to Cologne was never on the cards. Even despite Toyota having the budget to hire anyone they would have liked.

[sniper80]

Gascoyne always created dogs of cars IMO. Very overrated & overpayed. Dino Toso was the rising star of the future until he died from cancer unfortunately 

[Peat]

I don't think it's correct to lay the success/failure of a car in the modern era down to one individual.

But, was he overated? Undoubtedly. I can imagine him and Sam Michael charging thier glasses and laughing "How did we pull that off??"

[Talisman]

Well yeah. I do think Gascoyne was the best designer Toyota ever had, even though he messed up their 2006 car. And by 2009 Toyota was also already somewhat coming back to the fore in F1 competition.

 

But the problem for Toyota was also that they failed to attract top talents. I think the move of Newey, and the likes, to Cologne was never on the cards. Even despite Toyota having the budget to hire anyone they would have liked.

 

Gascoyne wasn't a designer, he was more like Brawn helping establish a good clear management structure to allow the team to perform to its best.  I'm not convinced he was as good as mooted and he was very outspoken, unable to temper his style according to the people or organisation he was working with/for.  This resulted in him being kicked out for political reasons.  Its interesting to note that although he was around when many teams improved he never stayed around to enjoy the success the teams later enjoyed and IIRC none went on to win a championship.

 

Toyota is a bit OT, they took a long time adapting their philosophy from GTs where endurance is key to F1 where reliability is less important.  Also they recruited a lot of continental-based engineers especially from the Netherlands but found it difficult to retain staff once BMW got on the scene and competed for European based predominantly German speaking engineers.

[Nemo1965]

I've talked (or e-mailed, or e-chatted) to about three people who worked with Mike Casgoyne. Citing these sources too directly would reveal too much off private conversations (and the identity of the persons in question), but if I summon it up:

 

- Very talented designer

- Bit of an ego

- Needed someone to direct him

- As a leading manager himself: hopeless because of no social skills

 

So I don't think he is overrated. But I do think he was hired for roles that did not fit him, which ended in tears for him and the teams he worked for.

[BittenHeroes]

I've talked (or e-mailed, or e-chatted) to about three people who worked with Mike Casgoyne. Citing these sources too directly would reveal too much off private conversations (and the identity of the persons in question), but if I summon it up:

 

- Very talented designer

- Bit of an ego

- Needed someone to direct him

- As a leading manager himself: hopeless because of no social skills

 

So I don't think he is overrated. But I do think he was hired for roles that did not fit him, which ended in tears for him and the teams he worked for.

 

That's interesting to hear, thanks for sharing.

[george1981]

He seemed to do well turning around failing  mid field teams but as others have said he struggled when he had a big budget. By the time he was at Caterham he seemed to believe his own hype.

[Talisman]

He seemed to do well turning around failing  mid field teams but as others have said he struggled when he had a big budget. By the time he was at Caterham he seemed to believe his own hype.

 

I think its safe to say Caterham was doomed to failure regardless of what Gascoyne did.

[LORDBYRON]

With a small design team, he was pretty good.  But with a large design team, I think he went off the rails.  Too much ego. Something like Gary Anderson.

Big G was the bomb he had some good designs  

Edited by LORDBYRON, 29 December 2016 - 14:19.

[TF110]

Well yeah. I do think Gascoyne was the best designer Toyota ever had, even though he messed up their 2006 car. And by 2009 Toyota was also already somewhat coming back to the fore in F1 competition.
 
But the problem for Toyota was also that they failed to attract top talents. I think the move of Newey, and the likes, to Cologne was never on the cards. Even despite Toyota having the budget to hire anyone they would have liked.

I think the TF109 was Toyota's best. Vasselon is a better man at TP than Gascoyne. I don't know if location was the only issue with TMG, I think it was part management at the time (John Howett) and the head company's expectations. But Gascoyne does not have much of a winning history on the teams he was with. I don't think he had a good history of turning around the bad either.

[Francesc]

The TF109 had infinite hours at two wind tunnels and it didn't even win a race. It was a failure and it was logical that Toyota pulled the plug at the end of that season.

[Baddoer]

The TF109 had infinite hours at two wind tunnels and it didn't even win a race. It was a failure and it was logical that Toyota pulled the plug at the end of that season.

It had shocking performance at Monaco where downforce needed. I think very few people understood how did that car work.

Edited by Baddoer, 30 December 2016 - 09:00.

[HoldenRT]

Yes.

[jannyg]

The TF109 had infinite hours at two wind tunnels and it didn't even win a race. It was a failure and it was logical that Toyota pulled the plug at the end of that season.

 

Drivers were the issue. An over the hill Trulli and an average Timo Glock

 

That car was good for a win at least once, especially during the first few races when it had the double diffuser advantage

[TF110]

^And at Spa and Suzuka and Bahrain and Brazil. Bahrain was a sure thing but the team made the opposite tire call of everyone else. Plus in 09, Toyota reduced the budget for f1 by quite a big margin. Every team spent huge hours in the windtunnel because the new regulations for 2009. But this is the Gascoyne thread so let's look at how good his team did back then. 

[Tsarwash]

Probably. Perhaps he was a great number two, but not a great number one. It happens.

[Pierce89]

Gascoyne certainly had a fair amount of impact on Jordan and Benetton/Renault, and the Toyota TF105 is probably the best car the team ever had. But since then he slightly fizzled out. Though I do think Gascoyne played some role in the turnaround Force India had during 2009, by which time he already was gone, but he set the foundations during 2008.

Caterham? I suspect the whole management was a slight mess.

Character-wise it is mentioned that Mike was somewhat of an ego. Maybe it influenced as well. Because chances are after some serious impressions he got carried away and thought he was the best designer in the business and could make any demands on teams he wants. But it didn't quite work out like that. Which means he hasn't had the longevity like some other technical people in the business have had. Peaked early.

I'd say the 08-09 cars and the never raced '10 under Pascal Vasselon are probably the three best f1 cars Toyota built. To give an answer.... by a mile.

Edited by Pierce89, 31 December 2016 - 09:37.

[DogEarred]

Apart from the discussion about his character, surely the fact that, apart from this thread, nobody talks about him or clamors to offer him a F1 position, more or less answers BittenHeroes' original question.

[Boing 2]

The years I followed F1 most passionately were the mid-90s until around 2010.

In this time, Mike Gascoyne worked for many different teams and seemed to be rated very highly by a lot of people. 

But the results some of his cars achieved were less than convincing. His first proper Jordan (2000) wasn't reliable, Renault's real success came after Mike had gone, and Toyota never improved despite all the investment. Did he turn up any trees at Spyker/Force India and or Caterham? Not that I remember.  

So how good was he really? Worth all the millions he was paid, or was he 'stealing a living' for many a year?

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts about this.

 

He joined Toyota in early 04, which they finished in 8th with 9 points, the following year with the car he oversaw they finished 4th with 88 points.

 

At the end of 05 after the 06 car was designed to run Michelins the head company switched to a Bridgestone contract because IIRC they were equipping their road cars with them. The tyres were a totally different concept to the Michelins and the car didn't work on them. I think this top down managerial interference is what led him to leave but that 1 season was their best result in F1.

 

Jordan in the first half of 98 had a reasonable but fragile car and hadn't scored a point in the first half of the season, in the second half after he joined they scored their first victory  ( a 1-2) and racked up 34 points to finish 4th, the following year with Mikes first car they fought for the title (with help from McLaren and Ferrari's misfortunes)  won 2 more races and came 3rd with 61 points. The 2000 car was fast but fragile again as Jordan overextended themselves trying to make their own gearboxes IIRC .

 

He joined Bennetton in 01 when they finished 7th with 10 points and 3 years later they were 4th on 88 points with their first victory (as Renault).

 

Caterham may have ended a disaster (after Gascoynes departure) but in the first 2 years under his direction they were by a country mile the most stable and respectable of all the 3 new starts.

 

The guy certainly had a reputation as an arsehole on a human level but he knew what he was doing technically and no team he joined ever went backwards barring that single Jordan season.

 

Curiously, if you look at Gascoyne, Newey and Chapman, they were all race winning designers and all quite tidy drivers in their own right, I always felt being a driver gave them an edge as designers over their peers.

[Pierce89]

Yet nobody wants him. If he was really THAT GOOD, an f1 team would be employing him right now.

Edited by Pierce89, 29 January 2017 - 18:52.

[FullThrottleF1]

Yet nobody wants him. If he was really THAT GOOD, an f1 team would be employing him right now.

Thread Revival!

[EvilPhil II]

I think this is a bit unfair.  He was responsible for the structures that designed the car.  So far example at Renault he put in place the 2 teams working on this and next years cars.  This was later adopted by Mclaren and more recently Mercedes with their 1 billion team principles. 

[Boing 2]

Yet nobody wants him. If he was really THAT GOOD, an f1 team would be employing him right now.

 

He was pretty open about why he retired, he saw his mentor, Harvey Postlethwaite drop dead of a heart attack on the job, probably brought on by stress. Mike said he vowed not to end up the same way and so went off to enjoy life after making his money in F1

[Gorma]

If you read this forum you'd come to the conclusion that he was underrated. He setup Renault for success in the mid 2000s and Toyota had their most successful season under Gascoyne. Spyker and Caterham never had the funding or the time to be successful. I think he was a capable technical director, but you need time and money to build a succesful technical team. 

[messy]

The Renault car from 2003 was still pretty much forming the basis of the 05/06 cars that won the titles wasn't it? He had a big hand in that. 

Edited by messy, 30 January 2017 - 13:37.

[kevinracefan]

Yes, he ruined Caterham with the switch to the Coanda Exhaust in Silverstone 2012.

c'mon.. there was nothing good to ruin at caterham, LOL...

[Craven Morehead]

He was good in his day.