Roger Andriesse and other lesser-known Lotus Cortina drivers in Australia
#1
Posted 04 January 2017 - 04:03
1960's.
I can't recall ever hearing of this guy, does anyone else? Lotus Cortinas were very few and far between in Oz at that time, so someone should recall him.
I checked on Google for Roger Andriesse and came up with this marvellous quote from him:
"I raced a Lotus Cortina in Australia 1964-66 with great lack of success, the two factory sponsored cars that the Goeghan (sic) brothers ran for Neptune Racing were so much faster.
We all received our cars in the same shipment but within a few weeks both the Neptune cars had some very innovative modifications, still within the rules....sort of"
Any comments?
#3
Posted 05 January 2017 - 04:30
#4
Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:46
I guess you're as aware as anyone that the Geoghegans were never with Neptune... And I'm pretty sure that the Neptune Lotus Cortina of Jim McKeown had no Ford backing. I'd say it was a half-baked attempt at faking a history.
Ray, the whole quote from this guy is just so laughable. For those of us with knowledge of Australian racing history it is just a joke. That's why I finished with "any comments?"
What these people attempt to get away with overseas is disgraceful.
I'll give a simple example. He claims to have raced his LC from 1964 to 66, yet he sold it to Brian Michelmore in early 1965. (you remember those fantastic races Michelmore had with Max Volkers in similar LC's)
Here is the link to where I got his quote:
http://www.lotus-cor...iesse/2cars.htm
#5
Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:05
Come on fellas, give the guy a break. Take off the anoraks.
He did have an early LC and he raced it, probably at club level.
He doesn't claim he raced against the Geoghegans or Jim McKeown, just that their cars were quicker. He's likely confused 'Total' and 'Neptune", big bloody deal.
Not everyone was into the sport to the level of TNF'ers, and that includes many who competed. I'm surprised how many concepts I've long held of those days have, in recent times, been proven erroneous. Apart from knowing where I was when I heard JFK was shot I wouldn't bet a testicle on any recollections I have of the 60s.
Edited by Wirra, 06 January 2017 - 19:43.
#6
Posted 05 January 2017 - 21:57
Come on fellas, give the guy a break. Take off the anoraks.
He did have an early LC and he raced it, probably at club level.
He doesn't claim he raced against the Geoghegans or Jim McKeown, just that their cars were quicker. He's likely confused 'Total' and 'Neptune", big bloody deal.[/size]
Not everyone, even many competitors, was into the sport to the level of TNF'ers. I'm surprised how many concepts I've long held of those days have, in recent times, been proven erroneous. Apart from knowing where I was when I heard JFK was shot I wouldn't bet a testicle on any recollections I have of the 60s.
So I ask why do you bother being on The NOSTALGIA forum?
I'm sure Ray can respond better than me to your post.
#7
Posted 05 January 2017 - 22:45
Soon we'll have access to all the Warwick Farm records, we'll see if he's in there...
#8
Posted 06 January 2017 - 01:13
I have just spent a considerable amount of time going through records at my disposal and can not find Roger Andriesse listed for any National Open meeting 1964-1965. NSW or Vic. As suggested, if he competed, it may have been in club meetings.
Dale.
Edited by Dale Harvey, 06 January 2017 - 01:13.
#9
Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:22
Were there any other names of 'unknowns' with Lotus Cortinas?
#10
Posted 06 January 2017 - 13:52
Edited by Bloggsworth, 06 January 2017 - 13:53.
#11
Posted 06 January 2017 - 21:45
Here here, Bloggsworth. Terry S asked Wirra why he bothers being on TNF. Like me, it's probably to learn more of the history of motorsport and correct errors of note, but not to conduct witch-hunts on minnows of no historical significance. Memories are certainly fallible, and we're all guilty of relying on them to our detriment, including Ray.
#12
Posted 06 January 2017 - 23:02
#13
Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:31
My last meeting was at Sandown 500 meeting Oct 2000. On the Friday we had a couple of bus loads of school kids come through,, I must have given 50 autographs. As did most competitors. I was up the back under the carport, peacefull there sharing with Bryan Thompson running his Supra Production car as a Sports Sedan.
There was a few older kids there, I ended up with a couple as helpers and they were quite handy and I gave them passes for the weekend.
#14
Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:55
Thank you Dale...
Were there any other names of 'unknowns' with Lotus Cortinas?
Dale, If it isn't too much trouble could you check if Bob Caddy ('64 Hillclimb Champ) ever ran his LC at Open meetings? Thanks.
#15
Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:32
Perhaps someone should call Brian Michelmore?
AFAIK he's still with us.
Was going to, myself, but couldn't find a likely target in White Pages.
#16
Posted 07 January 2017 - 21:37
Dale, If it isn't too much trouble could you check if Bob Caddy ('64 Hillclimb Champ) ever ran his LC at Open meetings? Thanks.
Any particular year?
Dale.
#17
Posted 07 January 2017 - 23:58
I'm glad there's a couple of others that have similar thoughts to me about this thread. Spread, I note across 2 forums.
Roger's is not a name that I currently have any records of from race programmes. But I don't have enough of the AARC Club members Warwick Farm race meetings to confirm or deny the man raced there. Bob W is about the only person I can think might have access to those meetings.
My small Lotus Cortina file has numerous names that hardly became household in Australia. Unless your name was Moffat, McKeown, Geoghegan or Jane. Regardless, they were all having a bit of fun at the time.
As for Bob Caddy, I currently have him listed at the June 64 Warwick Farm open meeting and the August 64 AARC Club meeting. Quite possibly his name appears elsewhere but i haven't recorded every name, from every programme. I have.a note that he gets a mention/photo in the September 64 RCN for the WF Clubbie meeting report.
Stephen
#18
Posted 07 January 2017 - 23:59
Dale. Just '64 would suffice. If he didn't run it that year I doubt he ran in any other.
AFAIK it was in a three car delivery which included the Dr John Uren car (then to Chris Brauer) and one other (Moffat?).
(edit) Missed Stephen's post as we were typing at the same time.
Edited by Wirra, 08 January 2017 - 02:56.
#19
Posted 08 January 2017 - 01:32
I always understood the Moffat car was the one he ran in a couple of Saloon/Trans-Am style of races in the states and bought it back with him.
....... I'm surprised how many concepts I've long held of those days have, in recent times, been proven erroneous.
.... and like Wirra suggests. I could be wrong
As I have understood it, Moffat spent a bit of time working in the Team Lotus garages (doing what, I don't know) when they ran a few saloon events in the states, and "somehow" ended up with one of the cars.
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#20
Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:08
Again unsure, but I think he drove an LC with Jon Leighton at the '64 Sandown 6 hour before his stint in the USA from which he brought his LC back. Perhaps the 'third' LC in the initial batch belonged to Leighton?
#21
Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:17
Dale, If it isn't too much trouble could you check if Bob Caddy ('64 Hillclimb Champ) ever ran his LC at Open meetings? Thanks.
As Stephen has already stated Bob Caddy is listed for Warwick Farm 7/6/64 with #18 also 9/8/64 with #12 also 6/9/64 with #20 and 6/12/64 with #15. I can't find any listings at any other circuits. Warwick Farm must have been his favorite.
Dale
#22
Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:32
Jon Leighton co-drove the Moffat LC at the '64 Sandown.
The fact that the photo Andriesse includes in his website is at private practice at Warwick Farm probably suggests 2 things ...
a) he may have been NSW based and
b) if that is the best photo he had to place on his site may mean that he was only ever a clubbie racer and minor events. Everything's revelative. Some of my most memorable races (TO ME) are some club meetings at Oran Park and Amaroo. But they've never been reported in RCN, never appeared in collectible programs.
So as I say, to Roger Andriesse, what ever he did do in his Lotus Cortina Mk1, are important to him and worth sharing on his web page. Anyway, just my thoughts.
#23
Posted 08 January 2017 - 04:22
In response to Ray's question about 'unknowns' racing Lotus Cortinas: I knew a guy who raced a few times back in the late '60s: David Weekes. He lived in Vaucluse, and had a Mark 1 - but the later version with the indicator/parking lights joined to the grille moulding. He raced at a few open meetings in 1968 at Warwick Farm, and maybe a few other places. He's probably as well-known here as Roger Andriesse was - prior to this thread.
Probably something more than 'unknown' was John Uren - a Penrith doctor. He was not a Geoghegan or McKeown, but he did OK. He also raced a Mark 1 at Warwick Farm - and Oran Park and Catalina too, IIRC. He was more of a hillclimber. I bet Greg Mackie would remember him. Both David Weekes' and John Uren's cars were in original Lotus Cortina colours.
EDIT: I just noticed that Wirra mentioned John Uren . The doc is becoming less unknown with each mention.
Edited by gkennedy, 08 January 2017 - 04:38.
#24
Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:17
Given this thread has now actually got some usefull info, perhaps is could be re-birthed as "Lotus Cortina drivers in Australia" Then we can mention all the other 'unknowns' and piece together the lineage of the cars.
Wirra's mention of Bob Caddy and the 1964 AHC made me check RCN, John Uren also ran at that July 64 Silverdale Australian Hillclimb Championship meeting
Moffat raced quite consistantly afterwards, with the car he brought to Australia for the 1964 Sandown 6 Hour, I don't believe Jon Leighton had any ownership of an LC for racing. He was a Cooper S owner at the time of the 6 Hour and must have been a late inclusion with Moffat. Because Moffat's entry just has TBN in the programme for the other driver. In fact getting the car was difficult as discussed in issue 77 of Australian Muscle Car.
Stephen
#25
Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:53
John Uren drove his LC at least once at the Farm...can't remember when though.
#26
Posted 08 January 2017 - 07:17
Greg, t's only 50 something years. lol
John Uren is mentioned in the April 65 AARC Newsletter results as a winner of event 9 at the April WF AARC Club Members meeting.
Stephen
#27
Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:40
John Uren drove his LC at least once at the Farm...can't remember when though.
6/12/64. Number 16 and Bob Caddy was number 15.
Dale.
#28
Posted 08 January 2017 - 11:43
He was a regular competitor in his Lotus Cortina.
Who has the rules? I'm now wondering also exactly what capacity was the threshold point for 2-door cars in Appendix J, Lotus Cortinas were 1558cc IIRC.
Some AARC meetings were reported in RCN, I'll have a look and see but certainly very early ones were and in the eighties all of them were.
#29
Posted 08 January 2017 - 12:51
"Works" Lotus Cortinas were 1594cc (.040'' or 0.9mm overbore).
From memory, .040'' was the maximum overbore allowed under Appendix J, IIRC. This was the capacity listed in the contemporary race programs for the Geoghegan, Jane and McKeown cars, the former two being "works" cars, from memory.
Similarly, and for comparison only, 1275 Mini + .040 over = 1310cc; + .020" =1293cc.
Good article in Lotus Cortinainfo.com website on the mods made to the "works cars" or "Production Racing Conversions": http://www.lotuscort...om/?page_id=889
#30
Posted 08 January 2017 - 19:05
Appendix J rules [before 1964] allowed for 2 door cars up to 1300cc.
I must find a new record...this one appears to be broken !
#31
Posted 08 January 2017 - 20:14
Some AARC meetings were reported in RCN, I'll have a look and see but certainly very early ones were and in the eighties all of them were.
Ray, RCN were ok in 64 to 66 reporting on AARC meetings, a report every second meeting or so, and then their reporting petered out to nothing. Probably space requirements and the growth of all branches of motorsport from 67 on.
When RCN went to magazine format on Sep 63 they would have been looking for column inches so reported on a lot more "minor" events and stories. But even in those reports I have no record of Roger Andriesse. Maybe the most useful information from this thread maybe the lineage of some of the cars.
Steve
#32
Posted 08 January 2017 - 20:31
Good article in Lotus Cortinainfo.com website on the mods made to the "works cars" or "Production Racing Conversions": http://www.lotuscort...om/?page_id=889
Interesting read - thanks.
Running a LC would be pretty expensive for the private owner, especially a non-mechanic one - crack test the rods after every meeting, crack test the axles every 400 miles ...
#33
Posted 08 January 2017 - 21:51
Originally posted by Kenzclass
"Works" Lotus Cortinas were 1594cc (.040'' or 0.9mm overbore).
From memory, .040" was the maximum overbore allowed under Appendix J, IIRC. This was the capacity listed in the contemporary race programs for the Geoghegan, Jane and McKeown cars, the former two being "works" cars, from memory.
Similarly, and for comparison only, 1275 Mini + .040 over = 1310cc; + .020" =1293cc.....
There was no limit to how far you bored under the Appendix J rules, apart from the fact that it had to hold together without sleeves...
That limit came in with Improved Production in 1965.
#34
Posted 08 January 2017 - 22:54
I knew Weeksie at the time. Another LC guy was a Kiwi, Peter Bennett, and of course there was also another Kiwi John Ward? who was tragically killed at Catalina in his LC. He rolled coming out of Dunlop after tangling with a fella I knew, but whose name escapes me atm driving an early XR GT Falcon. I understood that Ward was freakishly speared by the broken wood-rim steering-wheel.In response to Ray's question about 'unknowns' racing Lotus Cortinas: I knew a guy who raced a few times back in the late '60s: David Weekes. He lived in Vaucluse, and had a Mark 1 - but the later version with the indicator/parking lights joined to the grille moulding. He raced at a few open meetings in 1968 at Warwick Farm, and maybe a few other places. He's probably as well-known here as Roger Andriesse was - prior to this thread.
Probably something more than 'unknown' was John Uren - a Penrith doctor. He was not a Geoghegan or McKeown, but he did OK. He also raced a Mark 1 at Warwick Farm - and Oran Park and Catalina too, IIRC. He was more of a hillclimber. I bet Greg Mackie would remember him. Both David Weekes' and John Uren's cars were in original Lotus Cortina colours.
EDIT: I just noticed that Wirra mentioned John Uren . The doc is becoming less unknown with each mention.
Also, let's not forget Bill Fanning and Bob Inglis
#35
Posted 08 January 2017 - 23:40
He refused to wear belts, as I understand it, and was also partly ejected through the screen. Ken Stacey was the name of the Falcon GT driver.
Wasn't Fanning's car Moffat's? And Bob Inglis I seem to recall in a Mk 2 (1967 or later) model.
#36
Posted 08 January 2017 - 23:57
John Ward only ran one Farm and a Lakeside before the fatal Catalina...
He refused to wear belts, as I understand it, and was also partly ejected through the screen. Ken Stacey was the name of the Falcon GT driver.
Yeah,Dr. Michael Henderson,https://en.wikipedia...derson_(doctor) ,used photos from this accident in his seat belt campaign lectures in the late 1960's early 70's.
Long time ago but IIRC there were many LC,possibly 20 or more,racing in NSW/Qld events in the late 1960's.I know some would be replica's but surprised more names haven't been thrown forward.
#37
Posted 09 January 2017 - 00:07
What follows are the names of lesser known Lotus Cortina drivers in Australia, that I already had on file before any of these discussions took place. Some are indeed well known drivers, but not necessarily household names as LC drivers in Australia. (thanks for changing the thread title Richard or Tim)
These are 1960s drivers of genuine LC (that is hopefully correct). If the later years (of particularly Historics) are added, then the list would grow significantly.
I know there's both names of some already discussed and even names missing that have now come out from discussion on this thread. Some even only drove other's cars.
Hopefully I've got the states of Australia they came from correct.
Terry Allen, Vic– ex Moffat
Robin Bessant, Tas – ex Norm Millen. According to Ellis French info
Chris Brauer, NSW
Bob Caddy,,NSW
Don Elliott, Tas
Bill Fanning, NSW
George Garth, NSW
Jon Leighton, ex UK, Vic
Andrew McComb, South Aust – ex Moffat/Allen
Frank Melit, Qld – ex Geoghegan
Brian Michelmore, ex NSW, Qld
Malcolm Nancarrow, South Aust
Ron O’Neill, Qld (co-driven Graham Perry)
Bill Orr, NSW.
Robin Pare, Tas - Don Elliott LC
John Uren, NSW
Max Volkers, Qld
Norm Watts, Vic
David Weekes, NSW
NZ drivers
John Ward – unfortunately killed at Catalina. Was the Kerry Grant car
Jim Palmer – who ran an LC with some Scottish chap, JYS who raced a bit.
Stephen
Edit to correct Frank Melit
Edited by cooper997, 09 January 2017 - 01:30.
#38
Posted 09 January 2017 - 00:47
How could we have forgotten Bill Orr? He was always there at the Farm, like a twin to John Uren.
#39
Posted 09 January 2017 - 00:48
Since the name of Bill Fanning has been raised by Seldo and Ray, I'd like to now raise the issue of the lineage of his car.
I've seen it described in various articles as "ex-Moffat", yet photos show it as the later "Aeroflow" Mark 1, not the original body type as driven by Moffat in the 1964 Sandown 6 hour.
So, were there two Moffatt L-C's or just the original early one with some external cosmetic upgrades?
Frank Melit - he's still going in his mid-eighties, and I have a contact through his nephew, so I should see if he has any period photos to post here, particularly post-inversion ones.
Edited by Kenzclass, 09 January 2017 - 00:50.
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#40
Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:47
...So, were there two Moffatt L-C's or just the original early one with some external cosmetic upgrades?...
I was speaking to the 'Caddy' car owner today who suggested there were a few Moffat LCs in the sense Alan was making a few bob importing them. I don't mean to imply misrepresenting them as his personal car, just that he had a source for LCs. Perhaps he gave them a gallop before selling on?
I also viewed a 'Cortina' poster supplier by Autopics which had a photo we believe was of Andriesse and Caddy exiting The Causeway at WF - chased by a Humpy. The Andriesse car had the same number on the rear window as the 'mid-week practice' image at the same location. I tend to think the 'mid-week' image was probably a club meeting. A search on Autopics under 'Cortina' did not reveal the image.
In something of a 'Twilight Zone' moment I looked for the poster on Autopics site and lo and behold the photo (centre - bottom row) has been replaced by one of a red sports sedan Cortina. I think there might be some Russian meddling going on here!
http://autopics.com....m-1963-to-1970/
One factor quite stunned me in looking at some of the meeting reports was that 5000 spectators attended a '64 club meeting at WF and 4000 attended the hillclimb at Silverdale. Crikey...
Edited by Wirra, 09 January 2017 - 01:48.
#41
Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:05
I'm also under the impression Moffat had at least 2 LC in Australia. At least one was Team Lotus and probably with Bowden's in Qld now. Moffat's 1965 Sandown 6 Hour car was an Aeroflow LC and is indeed entered as '1965' for the year of manufacture quoted in the entry list. It was fitted with a rollcage.
Now that I've looked at the November 65 Sandown 6 Hour programme, we can add some more names...
Barrie Broomhall in Volkers entry.
George Reynolds in the Jane entry
Steve Holland & Albert Poon over from Hong Kong
Reg McDougall & TBN - did it start??
Stephen
Edited by cooper997, 09 January 2017 - 02:22.
#42
Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:29
In line with my original post the timeline should be 1964 to 1966. On this correct basis many of your list would not qualify.What follows are the names of lesser known Lotus Cortina drivers in Australia, that I already had on file before any of these discussions took place. Some are indeed well known drivers, but not necessarily household names as LC drivers in Australia. (thanks for changing the thread title Richard or Tim)
These are 1960s drivers of genuine LC (that is hopefully correct). If the later years (of particularly Historics) are added, then the list would grow significantly.
I know there's both names of some already discussed and even names missing that have now come out from discussion on this thread. Some even only drove other's cars.
Hopefully I've got the states of Australia they came from correct.
Terry Allen, Vic– ex Moffat
Robin Bessant, Tas – ex Norm Millen. According to Ellis French info
Chris Brauer, NSW
Bob Caddy,,NSW
Don Elliott, Tas
Bill Fanning, NSW
George Garth, NSW
Jon Leighton, ex UK, Vic
Andrew McComb, South Aust – ex Moffat/Allen
Frank Melit, Qld – ex Geoghegan
Brian Michelmore, ex NSW, Qld
Malcolm Nancarrow, South Aust
Ron O’Neill, Qld (co-driven Graham Perry)
Bill Orr, NSW.
Robin Pare, Tas - Don Elliott LC
John Uren, NSW
Max Volkers, Qld
Norm Watts, Vic
David Weekes, NSW
NZ drivers
John Ward – unfortunately killed at Catalina. Was the Kerry Grant car
Jim Palmer – who ran an LC with some Scottish chap, JYS who raced a bit.
Stephen
Edit to correct Frank Melit
I must note it is sad to see you change my tread title. If you want a thread on Australian lotus Cortina drivers you could surely start one, rather than bastardise mine.
I view it as extremely bad manners, but then I guess you either have good manners or don't......
Some comments on your list for what it's worth:
Don Elliot: did he ever race an LC himself or was just an owner? By the way there is only one "t" in Elliot.
George Garth: Was his a genuine LC or just the ex Geoghegan GT with a T/C engine and some cosmetic changes?
Jon Leighton: wasn't he just a co driver for Moffat in the Sandown 6 hour. If you include him you have to include Jane's co driver George Reynolds, and also Barry Broomhall. I recommend co drivers be left out.
Ron O'Neill: Who is he?
Missing drivers:
Gary Douglass
Spencer Martin
Denis Watson
Norm Watts
As this thread is no longer what I intended, this will be my final post on this thread. Perhaps I should open a new thread on Roger Andriesse quote, and see if that gets hijacked?
Edited by TerryS, 09 January 2017 - 04:07.
#43
Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:10
Ron O'Neill: Who is he?
Ron O'Neill ran a parking station in Elizabeth St, Brisbane City (next to the Irish Club) and competed in the the Lowood Four Hour Race in 1965, as co-driver to Graham Perry who was listed above. Ron owned the car.
#44
Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:18
Here is an image of Rodger Andriesse racing a Lotus Cortina in Australia.
#45
Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:30
Don Elliot: did he ever race an LC himself or was just an owner? By the way there is only one "t" in Elliot.
It seems Don Elliot had retired from competitive motorsport by the time the Lotus Cortina was racing under his name, with most likely Robin Pare driving, although he did have a very successful motorsport career.
http://www.hobartspo....org/don-elliot
#46
Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:33
Thanks Ray - Yes - Ken Stacey. I was there at the time of the incident and I understood that it occurred on maybe the first lap of the race and that whilst he had a full-harness, he opted to remove his arms from the shoulder-straps for the start in case he stalled because he couldn't reach the key with the full belts on. And you are correct - Bob Inglis had a Mk2 but I somehow thought he'd begun with a Mk1John Ward only ran one Farm and a Lakeside before the fatal Catalina...
He refused to wear belts, as I understand it, and was also partly ejected through the screen. Ken Stacey was the name of the Falcon GT driver.
Wasn't Fanning's car Moffat's? And Bob Inglis I seem to recall in a Mk 2 (1967 or later) model.
#47
Posted 09 January 2017 - 05:50
Was Jim McKeown's Mk 1 a genuine LC, or his GT with a Twinc inserted?
#48
Posted 09 January 2017 - 05:56
I seem to recall Bill Orr inverting his Cortina at Catalina or was it the Farm? Is it me or did they seem to fall over a lot?
Never happen in a Mini. I know ..... I know. Just because I end for ended AND barrell my "S" at Brabham Loop. But that was a one off!
#49
Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:29
The AARC did hold Club Practice Days and numbers wouldn't have been required for those.
#50
Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:37
Originally posted by Porsche718
Was Jim McKeown's Mk 1 a genuine LC, or his GT with a Twinc inserted?
It would have been genuine, I'm sure...
Too much to change to make a replica and he wouldn't have been able to get away without such things as the A-frame and coil springs in the back. I know his Mk 2 was genuine because he bought a set of Koni strut inserts for it which only fitted 1967 Lotus Cortinas.