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Augie Pabst in Formula Junior


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#1 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:28

Augie Pabst is said to have driven an Elva Formula Junior for the Mecom team in 1959-60.  I am putting together an article for a club newsletter and wonder if anyone has a photo of him in that car.



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#2 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 13:11

No sign of Augie Pabst in an Elva (please post here if you find) but see Moretti Branca:

 

http://www.velocetod...anca-the-races/

 

Update: http://www.race-cars...085226633ss.htm

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 11 January 2017 - 13:44.


#3 RA Historian

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 15:32

As principal author of the Augie Pabst biography, I will attempt to answer your question. First of all there
are no photos of Augie in an Elva Jr from 1959-60 because he never drove one. Secondly, the Mecom Team was not
in existence in 1959-60. John Mecom did not start his team until 1962. Augie's first race in a Jr was at
Sebring in 1960, where he drove a Moretti. He drove that Moretti a number of other times in 1960, with one win.
He disposed of the Moretti following 1960, and drove but two races in FJ in 1961, one for Ollie Schmidt in a
DeTomaso, and one for Briggs Cunningham in a Lotus 20. He was more active in Jr in 1962, mainly in an old
Stanguellini which he purchased to use to race himself back into shape following his bad Daytona crash. He
also drove a few Jr races in a Cooper and a Brabham FJ for Briggs Cunningham. Augie liked the Brabham so much
that he bought it from Briggs at the end of 1962. He raced it a number of times over the next two years, with
several wins. The car was painted in Mecom colors, although it was owned by Pabst, not Mecom.

The two links posted immediately above cannot be trusted. Both are full of errors and greatly exaggerate both the
number of races and wins, have the time frame all wrong, and the story of Pabst in a Mecom Elva is absolute
nonsense. pure fiction. None of that pertaining to Mecom and Pabst ever happened. The Moretti link has some elements
of truth, but again lists events and results which did not occur.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 11 January 2017 - 15:39.


#4 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 19:42

Thanks Tom,

 

I posted my question after having seen the list of owners and number of races quoted in one of the links above.  I did an internet search and could not find his name in association with any FJ races (or the 22 wins out of 23) except for his drives in the Moretti, the De Tomaso Isis and the Lotus 20 (I did not go beyond 1961 since that was the scope of the said ownership of the Elva by John Mecom).  What made me doubtful was also that I found that Pabst first joined John Mecom in 1963, so I decided to put the question on this forum.  It seems that you have settled the question and I will now have to find out how to phrase the car's history diplomatically in the newsletter.  There is also reason to doubt the statement in the second link above that the car was sold Mecom (which now know was not true) by Rob Walker, who of course lived in the UK, since according to the factory records it was sold directly to the USA.



#5 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 20:58

If you are writing about a particular Elva FJ (front-engined) you might like to look in my recently published gallery here:

 

https://revslib.stan...-formula-junior

 

Who bought the car initially?

 

RGDS RLT



#6 group7

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 03:41

just for interest, here is a link that shows the start of FJ race at Sebring 1959

 

http://fjhna.org/wp-...ing-fj-1959.jpg


Edited by group7, 12 January 2017 - 03:42.


#7 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:08

Thanks for the link to revslib.stan.  Lots of interesting pictures there.  Unfortunately I don´t know who bought the particular car (claimed to have been driven by Pabst) initially. What I understand is that the factory records only give the destination country, in this case USA.



#8 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:22

When was it shipped? Do you know anything about drivers in the sixties?

Motor fitted? Any fragment to get started?

 

RGDS RLT



#9 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:42

Apart from the statement that it was sold directly to the USA I don´t know more about the owners than can be read in the link you posted above (the advertisment when it was offered for sale).



#10 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:53

Obviously parts of the ownership trail in the advertisement are fictional.

 

However the Texas connection, B.M.C. motor must narrow the field.

 

We are looking for an Elva 100-B.M.C. that ran in Texas in 1960-1961?

 

Do you own the car?

 

Competition Press, May 27, 1961: 

ELVA FORMULA JUNIOR-BMC engine, mag-

nesium wheels, Alfin brakes, Sun tach. Some

spares, few races. R.P. Hall, Jr., Box 325,

Meridian, Miss. Phones 485-5041 or 485-5832.

 

RGDS RLT 


Edited by Rupertlt1, 12 January 2017 - 11:13.


#11 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:29

No, I don´t own the car, but I know who the owner is.  The car is in Scandinavia.  There is one name which is not on the list in the advertisment:  John Henry Kirbo, if that could give any lead.



#12 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 12:35

Formula Junior ran at SCCA Corpus Christi, Texas, October 9, 1960.

 

http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_W37.htm

 

An entry list might make interesting reading.

 

Also Green Valley, Texas, 19 Feb 1961. 

 

Green Valley, Fort Worth, Texas, Feb 17/18 1962.

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 12 January 2017 - 14:05.


#13 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 14:47

Starting in March 1960, various Texas racers began to appear with a new Elva 100. At Mansfield, Louisiana, Jim Hall, Chuck Hall and Ronnie Hissom brought such cars, but they all had DKW engines. In fact, all Elvas 100 in the Southwest had DKW engines, those raced by the above, plus Hap Sharp, George Koehne, Harold Krech, Terry Stokes, Delmo Johnson and Truett Helms.

At Mansfield in May 1961 John Henry Kirby [not Kirbo] ran an Elva 100 as well, and again it was DKW powered. Kirby was a good friend of John Mecom Jr.

The only BMC-powered Elva 100 that I can remember in that period was raced by Charlie Kolb, by then living in Florida.


All research: Willem Oosthoek

#14 group7

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 15:03

Jerry, you beat me to it, I was going to suggest that the starter of this thread get in touch with you. between you and Willem much detailed information in various threads.

 

thank you !



#15 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 15:47

Two Elva BMC-powered cars here at Mansfield, LA, (Stokes and Kirby)?

 

7 May 1961:

 

http://www.racingspo...5-07-21215.html

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 12 January 2017 - 15:49.


#16 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 17:11

This particular car - chassis number 100/14 Ex - is now BMC-powered but that does not exclude that it might have been converted from DKW at some stage of its life. This was not uncommon, since the DKW engine had a rather bad reliability record.  Most Elva 100s have a suffix to their chassis number, either A (for Austin, i.e. BMC-powered) or DKW.  Some of the cars shipped to the US did, however, lack this and instead had the suffix Ex for 'Export', which was the case for 100/14, which also means it cannot be seen from the factory record which engine it had. 

 

The hand-written list of owners (which I got from the present owner) lists as first owner 1959-61 John Mecom but has the following note:  "owned by John Mecom and raced by Augie Pabst and John Henry Kerbo (sic), won 22 of 23 races".  Based on what RA Historian writes in an earlier post, it seems that the parts about Pabst and number of race wins are not correct, but at least now we know that Kirby raced an Elva, but probably DKW-powered even the link in the post above states 'BMC'.  At least that might be some connection to this particular car.



#17 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 17:40

The programme for the Mansfield races, 7 May 1961, would help. RGDS RLT



#18 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 18:00

I don't have the race program for the May 1961 Mansfield Divisional. The most comprehensive, ten-page report was done by A. Hardcaslle in Sports Car Digest. He mentions John Kirby in the results, but only as driving an Elva FJ.

Kirby was from Houston, so I checked the July 1961 race program for Galveston. Al Stokes [Houston] and John Kirby are mentioned, both with just an Elva FJ, no engine mentioned.

No appearances of either in the three Green Valley events near Fort Worth that year, or the other two Mansfield events.

But...Competition Press also covered the May 1961 Mansfield event, in an article by Dennis Cipnic. He does mention Mrs Terry Stokes and John Kirby, both racing an Elva/BMC. Did Cipnic get it right? If so, I stand corrected and it seems the only BMC Elvas 100 among the many in the Southwest had Houston as their domicile.

As for John Mecom Jr. owning Kirby's car, I doubt it. As Tom mentioned, Mecom did not start his team until 1962, with a Chevrolet Corvette raced by Bob Schroeder. And Kirby could well afford his own FJ., being part of the family that owned K & G Oil Tools, a Houston-based oil services business.

All research: Willem Oosthoek

#19 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 18:13

For obit see:

 

http://www.legacy.co...y&pid=130731511

 

RGDS RLT



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#20 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 18:15

Jerry/Willem,

 

Many thanks for the effort you put into this.  I think I will leave it as BMC-powered unless proof of the opposite pops up. 

 

(By the way, I have Willem's books on the Birdcage and Supercage Maseratis and find them absolutely excellent).



#21 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 19:14

Good to hear that you enjoyed the Maserati books. One more piece to the puzzle of early ownerships. Leroy Melcher is mentioned between 1961 and 1963. He was from Houston as well and is better known as the 1963 owner of the FoMoCo II raced by Jack Saunders, another buddy of John Mecom Jr. Melcher was the 1962 owner of the Gary Laughlin Testa Rossa as well, although that car was not raced when Leroy owned it.

It definitely steers us toward Houston for the Elva's early ownership chain.


All research: Willem Oosthoek

#22 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 19:18

Jerry, What do you make of the obit saying that John Kirby drove for John Mecom? RGDS RLT

 

P.S. Houston, 1964: "John Henry Kirby, driving a De Tomaso Formula Libre with an Alfa engine, had a radiator hose connection blow just as he neared the end of the back straight. The hose, just above Kirby's knees, spewed hot, hot water all over his legs while he was travelling in excess of 100 mph.

Kirby brought the vehicle under control nevertheless before ejecting himself from the steaming cockppit."


Edited by Rupertlt1, 12 January 2017 - 23:30.


#23 Jerry Entin

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 00:07

After racing his Elva 100 at Mansfield in May 1961 and Galveston in July 1961, we have Kirby in a Volpini FJ, embossed with NART decals, at Green valley in October 1961. Then a void until Mansfield in September 1962, where he drove a Cooper/BMC FJ. [owner unknown].

By 1963 Kirby did drive for Mecom, in the de Tomaso Formula Senior [the one raced by Bob Schroeder in 1962] and its Formula Junior version.


All research: Willem Oosthoek

#24 group7

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 00:56

quick glance through the Wimpffen Elva book, only shows Kirby as a driver who drove Elvas.



#25 Rupertlt1

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 01:28

According to János Wimpffen:

 

7-May-61 Mansfield (LA) USA SCCA Divisionals FJ,GM,HM, 2nd Race: John Kirby -BMC FJ 2/2. Winner: Homer Rader, Cooper-DKW

 

RGDS RLT 



#26 David Birchall

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:01

In the late seventies I bought an Elva 100 front engined Junior in Philadelphia.  It was unusual in that it was fitted with a dry-sump XSP engine and Cooper FJ wheels.  What was also unusual, but I didn't realise at the time, was that it had an oil cooler mounted above the radiator opening.  The photo of an Elva 100 in Georgano's books shows an Elva with this oil cooler installation so at the time I assumed it was common.  I have never seen another so fitted.  It was a very good car with big brakes and that special engine plus modified suspension that used a "proper" double a arm front suspension with separate anti-roll bar instead of the usual set up.  There was no chassis plate with the car-it has been 'souveniered" at some point.  The car was red when I got it but had been green and gold at some point plus other colours.     Any leads as to its history?


Edited by David Birchall, 15 January 2017 - 04:06.


#27 Rupertlt1

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 12:53

David, is this a clue?

 

#34 Elva 100-BMC, Team Triple S, driver Ian Smith

 

https://revslib.stan...log/df205tq0253

 

https://revslib.stan...log/rj143yy5215

 

Two for the price of one:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/yj044wq2138

 

https://revslib.stan...log/ww846yc8903

 

https://revslib.stan...log/kv014xm8251

 

https://revslib.stan...log/tn377pv2466

 

#28:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/jx735xf4819

 

More:

 

https://revslib.stan...tem/mc608yr5033

 

https://revslib.stan...tem/qb923bc0042

 

Said to be a Deek, but note similar paint scheme to Team Triple S:

 

https://revslib.stan...tem/xc520hf1945

 

See: http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_GB4.htm

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 14 January 2017 - 16:20.


#28 David Birchall

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:01

Many thanks for that Rupert!  It certainly looks like my old car but whether it is  will be hard to establish.  I sold my car to a Californian in about 1984 and then it was resold later in the eighties-I lost track of it.

 

Here is the car at Westwood BC, Canada in the early eighties:

img013.jpg

 

I have many other photos that I would love to pass on to the current owner if he can be located.



#29 Rupertlt1

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 10:04

Can you elaborate re green and gold paint scheme? Was it basically green with gold nose flash (like in the pics)?

 

There is something not quite right about the #90 "Deek" at Monaco - why would a two-stroke motor be fitted with an oil cooler?

 

There are better pictures here:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/md238cx1876

 

https://revslib.stan...log/vn681pb7979

 

The car above looks uncannily similar to this car, #34 Elva 100-BMC, chassis 100/29:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/df205tq0253

 

Richard Hanson also drove for Team Triple S.

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 15 January 2017 - 14:15.


#30 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 15:55

Great links Rupertlt1.  I have passed them on to a friend and Elva owner in Denmark who has been looking for period photos of Elvas with an oil cooler scoop.



#31 David Birchall

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 19:41

RacingCompagniet:  Here is a photo of the mounting bracket for the oil cooler-you can also see the 'later' style suspension fitted to this car.

 

img011.jpgimage hosting free

 

My first drive:

img006.jpgimg hosting

 

My apologies for co-opting the thread but the opportunity to tap into some Elva expertise was too good to miss!


Edited by David Birchall, 15 January 2017 - 19:47.