149 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

 Mods: I have posted this in RC (not racing simulators) to discuss the crossover between real motorsport and e-sports that is happening and let people discuss.

 

I just read this article by James Allen reporting from CES:

 

https://www.jamesall...T CES LAS VEGAS

 

"Also on Saturday the Formula E racers went head to head with the world’s leading drivers from ESports in a US$1 million E-Race. The race was won by another teenage Dutch racing sensation, Bono Huis, ahead of Formula E racer Felix Rosenqvist."

 

 

 

E-Sports are big business already. The real Formula E driver was beaten by the sim racers. This 21 year old sim racer just earned more money driving a racing game than most do working for a few years. In fact, more than most real world racing drivers earn in a year in a single race!

 

This Bono name rang a bell (not from the lead singer of the band he was named after  ). After a moment's racking of my brain I realised I raced against this kid (Bono Huis) many years ago in the FSR World Series, the peak of world sim racing then. I almost got pole at Spa that season with a low DF setup, JV 97 style  . I could have earned money from Sim Racing had I stuck at it, no doubt. I was 7 tenths faster than Bono at Spa that year (2009):

 

 

 

5. (12)
+7 Bono Huis
Roaldo Racing
  44
0 1h17m28.614
1m43.813 +11.428

 

10. (6)
-4 Paul Taylor
Formula Racing Organisation
  44
0 1h18m42.264
1m43.101 +1m25.078

 

After a poor start on old tyres (forgot to change them after qual!) my race was ruined by a cretinous Lee Morris, the Pastor Maldonado of the 2009 season, who took me out Rosberg style at Les Combes forcing a damaged lap and an extra pitstop to repair damage. I held fastest lap for most the race. Bono came 5th, I came 10th. 

 

In the 10 races or so I could commit to I had 1 points finish (only points for top 8 back then!) and a few top 10s in sim racing's top echelon but the time that was needed to perfect setups to compete wasn't compatible with normal life. Think what would happen if real F1 teams had completely unlimited testing time, they'd have cars running 24/7. That's what the top sim racing teams did to perfect the setups and driving style. Teams of drivers perfecting setups. The level of driving and racing was unbelievable on the whole. The Suzuka race that year was epic, battles for the lead going lap after lap, side by side through T1 and the esses. No contact, top quality. A lot higher than many real F1 drivers IMO. Yes, none of the physicality or danger but the quality of racing is what really matters to real racers. The purity of competing.

 

Bono has gone on to be the Michael Schumacher of Sim racing winning many titles including 5 FSR world championships and this CES formula E race has boosted his profile further. I'm sure he has the driving talent to be a real racing driver and it would be great to see him get a test in a Formula E car.

 

To give you my background I've always been as big a racing and F1 as anyone here. I love cars and motorsport. Being born in the 80s I also love computer games. These passions naturally combined into racing games. From my first racing game, pole position on the Atari 2600:

 

 

To iRacing on PC (as raced by Max Verstappen)

 

 

 

Racing games have come a long way.

 

The GT Academy is another successful crossover of the real and virtual disciplines, http://www.gran-turi.../academy/about/ producing many top racing drivers in recent years including Lucas Ordinez and Jann Mardenborough who have both won major races and championships.

 

http://www.gran-turi....html?t=academy

 

Anyone doubting the relevance of sim racing ability to real racing has now been well and truly silenced. 

 

The question is, can virtual racing become a popular sport in itself? I'm sure it can. As virtual reality becomes more feasible and mainstream the immersion will only increase. Computing power for graphics is almost lifelike already. In 10 years F1 might be second fiddle to Virtual Formula E.

 

Discuss! 

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 14 January 2017 - 12:04.

[noikeee]

 In 10 years F1 might be second fiddle to Virtual Formula E.

 

No chance. It'll get bigger but not THAT big.

 

That eRace must've been bugged, Huttu didn't win.

[RedBaron]

Great post Tenmantaylor 

 

I made a similar one in another topic but focusing more on how technology is improving so quickly that setting up a quite advanced sim station in your home was now relatively cheap. Questioning how long it would be until we saw an alternative route to top level racing. From kids starting out in karting moving to lower formula moving towards pure sim racers who have raced many more hours and from a younger age than those who took the physical route over the virtual.

 

The idea of kids getting into Formula 1 from 'computer games' is easily scoffed at but teams use simulators and we all know as tech gets cheaper it appears in our homes and it already is on this subject (you have to assume to sim driver also keeps up with fitness too, the whole package is a requirement obviously)

 

I don't think sim racing will surpass Formula 1 as a sport or as entertainment but I think it will maybe in the next decade or so play a major role in the young up and coming generation.

[Anja]

Simracing could get bigger, but I don't really see it becoming an actual alternative for real racing or equalling the success of other esports. There's one main difference here. Games like CS:GO or Dota 2 don't have their real-life versions (well, CS is based in reality but that's not what I mean) hence they offer something new and different to the public. Simracing is just a virtual version of something already existing and well established. We don't really consider FIFA or PES as competition to actual football, I can't see why it would be that much different with racing. 

 

What I can see happening is simracing becoming more significant in driver development and training. GT Academy already proved that the skills between virtual and real racing can transfer in a pretty major way. I'd expect the two worlds to become more and more connected and intertwined. 

Edited by Anja, 14 January 2017 - 12:29.

[noikeee]

 We don't really consider FIFA or PES as competition to actual football, I can't see why it would be that much different with racing. 

 

I don't think this is quite the same thing as simracing overlaps far far far more with real racing, than pushing a couple of controller buttons whilst watching the full pitch overlaps with real footballing.

 

Also simracing can work as a cheap replacement for real racing which is prohibitively expensive, and dangerous. None of this applies to football, anyone can just do a kick about with their mates anywhere with no dangerous consequences. Whereas going racing round a track is a pipe dream for most.

[Anja]

I don't think this is quite the same thing as simracing overlaps far far far more with real racing, than pushing a couple of controller buttons whilst watching the full pitch overlaps with real footballing.

 

Also simracing can work as a cheap replacement for real racing which is prohibitively expensive, and dangerous. None of this applies to football, anyone can just do a kick about with their mates anywhere with no dangerous consequences. Whereas going racing round a track is a pipe dream for most.

 

From a competitor's perspective you're absolutely right. I was writing more about viewers as it's mostly those who matter in a popularity context. As in what does virtual racing have to offer to the public that real racing doesn't. 

Edited by Anja, 14 January 2017 - 12:42.

[chunder27]

Sim racing is already a huge part of motorsport, even at lower levels

 

If for no other reason to establish familiarity.

 

But as a spectator sport it will always have limited appeal.

 

To sim geeks fair enough, it's been going on in a limited way for years, I have been in races online that were commentated on etc.

 

But these big tournaments like this are backed by huge sponsors and mainly designed to PR their series and products. Clever idea. And you have been able to win decent money in Iracing for years. What might happen is an age restricted F1 series backed by teams like Mercedes and Red Bull, I can see that as a grooming area! lol

 

GT Academy did very well, but the selection process was flawed, all to often the guy that won it was not as quick as others but his profile fitted the Nissan and Sony PR machine better.

 

Same as real life really.

[Peat]

It's popularity will rise, but I can't see it becoming a spectator sport in it's own right. It just looks silly. I struggle to watch sim races that I was in!

Oh, and that last picture. He's doing triple screens ALL WRONG!

[JHSingo]

I'm still baffled by the idea that playing video games constitutes a "sport".

[Anja]

I'm still baffled by the idea that playing video games constitutes a "sport".

 

Some card games, chess etc are sparkling the "what is a sport" debates for ages now. Videogames are not that different. 

[EightGear]

Oh, and that last picture. He's doing triple screens ALL WRONG!

That grinds my gears so much more than it should... I see it so often, people buying fancy triple screens and then placing them a meter in front of them with a completly wrong FOV.

However I believe Max was running this at some Playseat headquarters, not as his usual setup. It is by the way Project Cars, not iRacing.

Edited by EightGear, 14 January 2017 - 13:43.

[MikeV1987]

Time will tell but it is definitely on the rise in terms of popularity. Even Forza Motorsport (which is a pretty casual racing game and no where near a sim racer) is getting into E-Sports via ESL. Just last summer they had their first tournament and the overall winner got a brand new Ford Focus RS, along with cash and prizes going to the players who finished in high positions. Also, they recently did another tournament with $150,000 in cash and prizes.

 

Even Gran Turismo Sport will have events that will be supported and recognized by the FIA. Imagine going to Paris for the FIA's prize giving ceremony for playing GT? 

 

The closest i've done to sim racing was doing organized races with TORA in Forza Motorsport. Those guys eventually got recognized by the MSA and also streamed their top lobbies on motorstv.com. Pretty cool stuff considering the people running that site are just average joes. Who knows what they could do with some proper backing and a better (and more popular) racing game.

 

Real motorsport may be dying but the future is bright for sim racing, one of these days I will have my own race rig and the wife can't stop me! 

Edited by MikeV1987, 14 January 2017 - 15:29.

[johnmhinds]

Just based on how I watch video game "Letsplays" on YouTube I wouldn't be interested in watching people taking video games super seriously like this.

 

Most of the fun and entertainment of spectating someone who is playing a game is seeing things go wrong when the games physics break on them or just by being entertained by the players personalities.

 

Very few people want to sit down and watch professionals silently trying to get the best time possible on a virtual track.

[Archer]

In my opinion the simracing will never take off, it is very much an isolated niche sport inside of an ocean of casual players. But the top 1% of them deserve a lot of praise. You only have to see that iracing, Rfactor2, Assetto Corsa ,Automobilista, or RBR combined are nothing against Gran Turismo or Forza player base, hardcore simulators are not for everybody, for most of the people are boring and frustrating, leading to a crash fest in the first corner in the public servers. This is not simracing, this is videogaming. If there is not a fanbase for hardcore simracing nobody will see a race, so, I don't see it taking off as a popular esport.

 

But, they should have a lot more recognizment, the elite of the simracers are the people with the best driving technique in the world. Because they all have the same equipment, the same resources, ilimited testing oportunities, ilimited chances to setup the car, the track limits are a lot more enforced in serious simracing than in the real life, and because they know the cars and tracks way better and they don't have their lives on the line they are pushing 100%. In 10 years one simracer can do more laps than any real driver ever.

 

The top 1% of this guys are used to race with 10 or 15 people able to qualify in 3 tenths of second of the pole, so they have to fight under a huge deal of stress without any chance make a mistake. And also natural selection, the best are the best purely on merit, not like in real motorsports where 90% or even more of the world population can't even mind in do a regional karting championship because how expensive is real motorsports. In simracing everybody can win at the very best driver provided he has the talent needed. In real life motorsports only god knows how may Ayrton Sennas have failed to jump categories in karting or never even had the chance to test a kart. Real life motorsports are an extremelly elitist sport, and all the nepotism we have been seeing lately shows it, you only have to see how many sons of exfootballers are in the top teams and how many expilot sons are in the 20 F1 seats available. In the Team Redline they have a lot of real life drivers, even Verstappen in in his team and trains with them and he is not the faster of them, Gregger Huttu dominated gplrank for years against +12000 competitors. it shows the level.

 

People think they are only guys playing a videogame, well, try iracing look a gregger huttu replay and try to take only a pair of corners as fast as him, after that you only will think that either he is blatlantly cheating or he has a super car setup, none of that is true, he is not called an alien and dominating the simracing scene for more than a 15 years for nothing, there is supreme hability and talent in what he does.

 

The vegas race was a farce in itself, the simracing comunity is really ashamed of that pr stunt, even the mod and track was pure crap, and the the glitch with the fan boost was so stupid... can't they even test their software before the race?, you only have to see how cringe worthy was the podium to see it was a farce. In my opinion this event has been very bad for the simracing scene public image.

Edited by Archer, 14 January 2017 - 16:34.

[chunder27]

Thing is they put Huttu in a car and he puked his guts up! the guy knew what he was doing but was not able to manage physically in a car.

 

Aliens are simply able to process the information quicker, have an innate feel for the sim. Not necessarily real driving. And they are sometimes able to design setups that exploit flaws in the game and the game physics as you try their setups and they rarely feel good, they simply have a unique skillset or driving style that suits one or two mods. Very clever but hardly fair. And also ways of driving that bear no relation to real driving, but work well in a sim. Again fair enough but not realistic.

 

When I played seriously there were some games that I was very good at, and some that I wasn't. It is how your style works in the game and with the physics. This does bear relation to real life which is good, but sim gamers don't make racing drivers.

 

I have said for years that if you pulled 50 race fans out of a room and trained them as they do in GT Academy, one or two of them would have the talent to make a career out of racing.  Not many of them have let's face it. 

 

A sim alien is the same as any alien in sports, just that in gaming you don't need tons of money. 

[savvy2210]

How long is going to be before it's an Olympic "sport"?

[f1paul]

How long is going to be before it's an Olympic "sport"?

Dunno, but there's not much point taking performance enhancing drugs for it. 

[savvy2210]

Dunno, but there's not much point taking performance enhancing drugs for it. 

I wouldn't bet on that.

[Archer]

Thing is they put Huttu in a car and he puked his guts up! the guy knew what he was doing but was not able to manage physically in a car.

 

Aliens are simply able to process the information quicker, have an innate feel for the sim. Not necessarily real driving. And they are sometimes able to design setups that exploit flaws in the game and the game physics as you try their setups and they rarely feel good, they simply have a unique skillset or driving style that suits one or two mods. Very clever but hardly fair. And also ways of driving that bear no relation to real driving, but work well in a sim. Again fair enough but not realistic.

 

When I played seriously there were some games that I was very good at, and some that I wasn't. It is how your style works in the game and with the physics. This does bear relation to real life which is good, but sim gamers don't make racing drivers.

 

I have said for years that if you pulled 50 race fans out of a room and trained them as they do in GT Academy, one or two of them would have the talent to make a career out of racing.  Not many of them have let's face it. 

 

A sim alien is the same as any alien in sports, just that in gaming you don't need tons of money. 

In all fairness it must be said Gregger had been sick before the test, but they couldn't re-squedule the test, and also he didn't do any kind of physical training before. Even having in mind that Gregger don't even have a driver license in the real life it says a lot that he was inmediatly competitive even if he only could do 4 laps. Give him a 6 month training strenght and 6 days testing the car and maybe he sets the track record.

 

Gregger has been fast in every sim he has ever drived, he dominated GPL, Nascar racing 2003, GTP, GTR2, WTCC game, iracing, and he has been really competitive in rfactor 1. When someone is slower in other sims it means that this driver is worse, period, it is part of the driving technique to adapt to the changes, if you can't adapt you're not as good as someone that can.

 

Also in the real life motorsports some people can't adapt to everything, Kimi went to WRC didn't do anything nearly close as what he did in F1 and he had the best car of the era, Kubica adapted much better but never was good enought to fight for a overall victory, Loeb nearly won le mans, broke pikes peak record, and nearly won dakar rallye, but in WTTC he never was a solid title contender, or in rallycross even having in mind he is the best WRC driver ever. Casey Stoner dominated in Motogp and never was competitive in australian V8, nearly every F1 driver that has went to DTM has failed to be competitive, even someone as talented as Hakkinen.

 

The part about exploits and wathever, well, in the real life the drivers and engineers use everything in their hand to be faster, so it is in the spirt of the competition, it is ok, and the sim developers tend to fix it, so, no problems. And no sim is ever going to be like the real life, it is impossible, not even the F1 teams with supercomputers can simulate in real time the aero of a wing. But engineering isn't about to be exactly accurate, is about create a solution close enough to what the application needs. Hardcore sims are close enough, and still keep getting better physics wise, allways will be exploits and people taking advantage of them, kudos to them, because they have had enought analysis capacity and perception to catch them and use it to their advantage. What is a shame is the people that have programming knoledge and manipulate the game physics, those are cheaters, are driving with a different physics as the others. But the exploits are there to everybody.

 

Also, as I said, a sim is never going to have a 100% correlation with the real life car. But even if it isn't, this guys racing is real, and the techniques they use have translation to the real world. They only should have to have to adjust their driving with a real world car, in the same way as a F1 driver would need to adapt to a LMP1 car.

 

Please, Gt Academy is like a MarioKart academy, it is not even considered as a sim, a simcade if you like, but not more than that. And even in that case the winners have been drivers competitive enough to keep their racing careers going, but I was talking about the top 1% of the simracers, not about a game contest. But it is not what I said, I said that they are the people with the best driving technique. It means that they are the most skilled people in compete and handle with a car on the limit, and it deserves credit. Gregger defeated +12000 people to reach the very top of GPLrank and stayed consistently in the top for years, against how many people has raced any F1 champion in his life?, with equal material?. I didn't said the top 1% would have been the best drivers in the real life, just that they have the best driving technique there is. To compete in the real life also have influence other things as the fear to die, physical strenght, or motion sickness, pr habilities... so not all of them would make a good real life driver, but they still would know better how to handle a car on the limit of adherence. That is what I meant to say and I believe that deserves credit. So, I share with you that an alien in simracing is the same as an alien in sports.

 

 

 

[Tenmantaylor]

https://www.youtube....h?v=dMilNmgPLMY

 

At 26:00 me battling Sean Edwards for 8th place for two laps at Circuit Istanbul in 2009 FSR World Series with another "JV" low downforce setup (that still worked through legendary T8!)   Later disgraced myself rearending Shaun Stroud into T1 after my first stop. This race featured David Greco, who also competed with Bono in the $1m race. Sean was a champion real life Porsche Cup legend who we sadly lost a couple of years ago in a Porsche as an instructor    It's a real shame they've removed the audio, the commentary was excellent. 

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 14 January 2017 - 18:06.

[EvgeniyNeytman]

Well, the problem of simracing is almost the same as real racing has. It is very expensive and totally not for all. Have you ever tried to explain the complexity of racing to "the guy from the street"? This guy prefers football, basketball or hockey, because it is quite simple for his average mind. Now emagine, that we speak about "games" - can you really prove to the 40+ years old audience that simracing is very close to the nature of real racing? No. Because when the here the word "videogame", they imagine it as tetris, or other arcade thing, that is made for entartainment, not for for serious kind of things.  

 

Also, you have to buy expensive hardware - G29 or Fanatec Clubsport, or T500RS, theese are must have things to be competitive. And with a nice PC and a special seat it is > than 3000 euros. But, i have to say that in last 10 years sim-games made GREAT progress. From F1C 99-02 to rFactor and rFactor based games, like great GTR and GTR2 games to iRacing and Assetto Corsa, that makes you feel like driving a real race car. 

 

Personally, a have a lot simracing experience at the top level, including winning 24H (well, with relays of course) GTR2 races in GT and LMP1 - with more than 50 teams and 300 drivers (3-6 drivers in a team). This is great experiance. To manage the tires and to save fuel, to make right pit calls when its time to switch to full wet tires ot sclicks....It helps to make friends, it unites. Sometimes simracing is about real passion.

 

As for GT Academy....well, a very big PR company. Its not about from simracer to real racing driver, as they say, its from low-level real racing driver to professional racing driver. I say this with full responsibility, because i made it to Silverstone Race Camp in 2013 for Russia, and did well. None of the 12 top guys were pure simaracers - i do a lot of karting (rotax, dd2), as many others did. Some guys did local touring races. Not becasuse of their abilities - racing is not only about driving skills, it about hard work in a gym and mental strength. But yes, the whole project is based on such a legend, that all guys are just simracers, nothing more. It helps to them to sell millions of Playstation consoles, this awfull overrated Nissan GT-R cars. It works.

 

Formula E Road to Vegas race was simply poorly organised...The mod and tracks quality were under any worthy levels. This will change of couse - this race is a start, a first attempt. 

 

I cant say that simracing is useless. No. I know a lot of really fast guys, aliens of racing, and many of them are very capable at the real racing car driving wheel. The greatest thing about simracing is to switch between real racing (even karting) and E Racing - this helps to achieve great results. But games have their small features, that sometimes make it hard to judge real driving skills. Simracing will grow with the new, internet and gadget oriented generations.

[Archer]

Well, the problem of simracing is almost the same as real racing has. It is very expensive and totally not for all. Have you ever tried to explain the complexity of racing to "the guy from the street"? This guy prefers football, basketball or hockey, because it is quite simple for his average mind. Now emagine, that we speak about "games" - can you really prove to the 40+ years old audience that simracing is very close to the nature of real racing? No. Because when the here the word "videogame", they imagine it as tetris, or other arcade thing, that is made for entartainment, not for for serious kind of things.  

 

Also, you have to buy expensive hardware - G29 or Fanatec Clubsport, or T500RS, theese are must have things to be competitive. And with a nice PC and a special seat it is > than 3000 euros. But, i have to say that in last 10 years sim-games made GREAT progress. From F1C 99-02 to rFactor and rFactor based games, like great GTR and GTR2 games to iRacing and Assetto Corsa, that makes you feel like driving a real race car. 

 

Personally, a have a lot simracing experience at the top level, including winning 24H (well, with relays of course) GTR2 races in GT and LMP1 - with more than 50 teams and 300 drivers (3-6 drivers in a team). This is great experiance. To manage the tires and to save fuel, to make right pit calls when its time to switch to full wet tires ot sclicks....It helps to make friends, it unites. Sometimes simracing is about real passion.

 

As for GT Academy....well, a very big PR company. Its not about from simracer to real racing driver, as they say, its from low-level real racing driver to professional racing driver. I say this with full responsibility, because i made it to Silverstone Race Camp in 2013 for Russia, and did well. None of the 12 top guys were pure simaracers - i do a lot of karting (rotax, dd2), as many others did. Some guys did local touring races. Not becasuse of their abilities - racing is not only about driving skills, it about hard work in a gym and mental strength. But yes, the whole project is based on such a legend, that all guys are just simracers, nothing more. It helps to them to sell millions of Playstation consoles, this awfull overrated Nissan GT-R cars. It works.

 

Formula E Road to Vegas race was simply poorly organised...The mod and tracks quality were under any worthy levels. This will change of couse - this race is a start, a first attempt. 

 

I cant say that simracing is useless. No. I know a lot of really fast guys, aliens of racing, and many of them are very capable at the real racing car driving wheel. The greatest thing about simracing is to switch between real racing (even karting) and E Racing - this helps to achieve great results. But games have their small features, that sometimes make it hard to judge real driving skills. Simracing will grow with the new, internet and gadget oriented generations.

Gregger Huttu dominated GPL with a microsoft sidewinder steering wheel, a really crappy and cheap as dirt steering wheel, it was in his gplrank profile in that era:

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure this steering wheel didn't cost more than 150 euros in his time. Nobody needs a Huskveld pedals + OSW steering wheel (or a leo bodnar one) + PlaySeat + triple screen or VR gogles. The people that have this kind of setup it is just because they have money for punishment and because it feels more rugged, better quality feel, it is more comfortable, durable, reliable, ergonomic, for the 1:1 FFB torque without lag, or they believe (wrongly) that it will make them more competitive.

 

But Gregger took the simracing world by storm in a chair with a crappy plastic steering wheel with 270 degrees and pedals with carbon potentiometers (even the steering wheel had a potentiometer) with 8bit ADC resolution. Yeah, there is a lot of youtubers (most of them seem to be sponsored) with extremely expensive cockpits, displays and F1 like steering wheels, but then I see their driving and I see failed braking points, poor race craft, fake countersteerings to make it seem harder than it is, or people clearly driving with driving aids, then you look their times and usually find that I'm way faster than most of them with a 10 years old G25 and a set of DIY pedals + DIY game controller. I was between the 20 faster guys in the GPL65V2rank, with a G25 and I never felt the wheel was the limititation, it was only me, and even today that I stopped to do league racing still can be at 0.5sec of the faster RSR times in assetto corsa, and a significant amount of the world records in assetto corsa are made with a set of G27 steering wheel + the stock G27 pedals without load cell.

 

A lot of people seems obsessed with hardware when they should be training more instead of spending absurds amounts of money, in the photography world happens the same: people talking in the forums a lot about hardware and searching information about hardware, instead of doing photography.

 

The only thing that makes a noticeable difference in consistency and feel (not in speed) is a load cell brake pedal, and even having that in mind the difference is not so great as it would seem initially. Simply it is easier to not overdo a braking because it is easier to modulate pressure than position. But I'm same as fast with than without it, just a bit more consistent if I'm not taking it seriously, it is harder to overshoot a corner. But with a squash ball behind the brake pedal it is a lot easier to brake consistently in a potentiometer brake pedal.

 

Even if someone wanted a set of pedals with load cell can still buy a set of Fanatec CSL elite pedals for 90€, this is like in the DSLR cameras, for an amateur the difference between a 900€ and a 6000€ professional grade cameras don't justify the inversion, but still there is people so obsessed that buys then without a professional interest because they apreciate the slight difference in quality feel, ergonomy and performance. Looking a lap, nobody can tell if the driver had a OSW, in the same way nobody can tell if a picture was taken with a 900€ camera or a 6000€ one.

 

So, no, nobody needs to spend 3000€ to be competitive. Huttu and others have a sponsorship from Fanatec, that is the reason why Gregger use this setup, if not probably he would race with whatever he wanted, because he races with very little ffb to have a faster steering input. All that anybody needs to be competitive is a second hand G25, that is 95% the same hardware as a G29, for less than 150€, new that steering wheel costed 230€ one week after it came to the market, not 3000€.

 

In my opinion except with the costs of being competitive, I believe you're spot on on everything you exposed and I share your opinion.

Edited by Archer, 15 January 2017 - 00:23.

[Disgrace]

I'm still baffled by the idea that playing video games constitutes a "sport".

 

Some card games, chess etc are sparkling the "what is a sport" debates for ages now. Videogames are not that different. 

 

The money is serious as well. The total prize pool for last year's DOTA 2 tournament was $20 million, of which the winners took home $9 million.

[RPM40]

While its very interesting in terms of participation, especially the level of competition that is emerging for top level sim racing. I agree that I can't see much of a spectator audience for it on the mainstream level. Maybe for enthusiasts of the simracing, just as enthusiasts of any sport love watching it. But general audience? Unlikely.

[Peat]

@Archer - I can't 'quite' agree with you.

It's not a level playing field, it never is. Hardware does play a role. You point to Huttu's old Sidewinder setup. That was pretty good back in the day. Any FFB is better than no FBB when judging tyre slip angles etc. A better PC also buys you more visual input, the ability to draw more than 10 cars at any one time helps you avoid crashes, judge gaps to rivals etc.

Practice time is virtually unlimited, should you have that time available to you. It's another thing to make proper use of that time and actually learn things and get faster, but if you're part of a 'team' of these wunderkind, you have virtual 24hr setup farms testing out every variant and producing the ultimate trick setup for them all to benefit from.

So, virtual racing does mirror real racing in a way. There is always an advantage to be had, whether that's through applying yourself(selves) more or spending more. (the latter has limited returns in comparison with the former)

[Tenmantaylor]

At the time I competed and made it to the top 10 of sim racing I was using a:

£600 laptop (Dell m90)
£90 logitech driving force pro wheel
£30 ikea desk
Office chair I found on the street (still have!)

The only reason I got close to competing near the front mid 2009 season was due to a period of not working (between freelance roles) giving me the free time to spend days on end perfecting my own setup. The difference between an average and good setup was 2s a lap. At the start of the season we were being lapped with what we thought were decent setups. The biggest differentiator was setup time, not kit.

[Tenmantaylor]

More coverage on the topic:

 

http://www.autosport...probably-missed

 

and Tost calls for e-races before the Grand Prix on Sunday

 

http://www.autosport...rning-f1-eraces

 

They should call it the Grand 'E'.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 20 January 2017 - 16:40.

[DaddyCool]

It's a good idea, therefore it won't happen.

[Giz]

Does rocket league count?

[Prost1997T]

The money is serious as well. The total prize pool for last year's DOTA 2 tournament was $20 million, of which the winners took home $9 million.

 

http://www.esportsea...com/tournaments and the runner-up prize was $3.4 million. Starcraft is still huge in Asia, not sure how much money is involved though.

[Kalmake]

http://esportsobserv...ts-games-tiers/

[travbrad]

Just based on how I watch video game "Letsplays" on YouTube I wouldn't be interested in watching people taking video games super seriously like this.

 

Most of the fun and entertainment of spectating someone who is playing a game is seeing things go wrong when the games physics break on them or just by being entertained by the players personalities.

 

Very few people want to sit down and watch professionals silently trying to get the best time possible on a virtual track.

 

On Twitch.tv there are a lot of popular streamers who are speedrunners, basically doing exactly what you are describing.  They take the game very seriously and try to complete it in the absolute fastest time possible. eRacing has the added benefit of a multiplayer competition rather than just racing against the clock too.  I'm not saying it's going to be super popular but there is a niche market of people interested in watching people who take games very seriously.  All of those Dota/CS:GO/etc tournaments are pretty popular too, also filled with people taking games REALLY seriously.

 

I don't see the appeal of it myself.  Taking any game that seriously sucks the fun and spontaneity out of playing games IMO but not all people share that view clearly. eRacing won't ever be really popular as a spectator sport I don't think but as others have mentioned it definitely has a place becoming a "feeder series" or at least supplemental training for real motorsports.  Experience counts for a lot, and there is nowhere a young racer can get more experience than a racing sim that is available literally 24 hours a day and for very low costs compared to any real track time.

 

One thing about all the really popular eSports games is that they are all very popular games in general, even among casual players.  There are no racing simulators that are popular, so that is probably the biggest thing working against eRacing becoming popular.  Most of the viewers are people who play the games themselves or at least have tried it.  You have a very limited pool of potential viewers with any racing sim.

Edited by travbrad, 20 January 2017 - 22:36.

[RPM40]

Watching people play games? Yay, that sounds riveting. Don't get me wrong, I love games. I grew up in the arcade era and have embraced everything from the ZX, to the Amiga, right up to the current gen consoles but it's dull as hell to watch other people doing it, no matter how 'realistic' the presentation.

Real life is just so passé eh.

 

Its because the risk and consequence is removed.

[PlatenGlass]

At the time I competed and made it to the top 10 of sim racing I was using a:

£600 laptop (Dell m90)
£90 logitech driving force pro wheel
£30 ikea desk
Office chair I found on the street (still have!)

The only reason I got close to competing near the front mid 2009 season was due to a period of not working (between freelance roles) giving me the free time to spend days on end perfecting my own setup. The difference between an average and good setup was 2s a lap. At the start of the season we were being lapped with what we thought were decent setups. The biggest differentiator was setup time, not kit.

Even though it's more "realistic", I think having to set the cars up actually detracts from these games and makes them less fun. With computer games there's the opportunity to strip away the crap and find out who the best racers are!

[Requiem84]

I think Tosh shows he is quite aware of the modern times.

Great idea to have Eraces as a warm up. Each F1 team could contract and train sim racers. The F1 game should be visually appealing and physics should be very good too (iRacing/Assetto Corsa/RF2). Fans of Ferrari would identify with a Virtual Ferrari driver. It would make F1 more in reach of the fans, since they could play the same endorsed game.

Additionally, the F1 teams could use their e-drivers as marketing tools. Such as let them drive in the real F1 car during a test etc. It would sort of bridge the gap between the fans and F1, since F1 becomes more in reach.

Finally, it is just a nice warm up for the real F1 race. And we might see sone virtual tactics which the guys in the real race might apply in the afternoon. (Remember Max on Nasr in Blanchimont? - he practiced that move in iRacing).

In the Netherlands, the first official football E competition just started. All professional teams contracted a gamer to participate on their behalf.

For F1, reaching out to the e-world, will make sure they stay in touch with the you ger generation!

All in all, it is one of the best idea's I ve heard in a long time. Surprising tgere is so little attention for Tosts plan.

[HoldenRT]

I like the pureness and sporting aspects of sim racing, it has the fun aspects of racing without all the other stuff.  It's sort of also the reason why it'll never be as big as the real thing though.  The other stuff sort of makes F1 what it is.  Lewis with his bunny ears, Scrooge McDuck and his latest antics, and teams cheating or conniving against each other etc.

[ilferrari]

"We must improve the show itself," Tost told Autosport. "We must bring in the young peoples' interest, for example with E-games. "Why not have Sunday morning an eGame with a big broadcast where people worldwide are involved to increase the interest?"

 

 

F1 is the only sport which doesn't view itself as a sport. They view themselves as showbiz. No wonder F1 has become so unskillful and contrived.

 

It's like snooker using pool pockets to increase scoring, now the world number 20 is as good as Ronnie O Sullivan. Viewing figures decline, and to fix it they put a pop concert before each match.

[chunder27]

Nonsense.

 

Darts, WWF, boxing, parts of NFL, NASCAR, all like to put on a show aswell as the serious side..
 

F1 is actually far too serious, and for people that don't watch it it looks frankly ridiculous, all thee men with headsets on trying to look important blowing air through leaf blowers onto a brake duct.

 

it is, honestly sometimes a little embarassing!!

[ilferrari]

Well, it's one of very view outside America. But the point remains. Nobody watches a sport for the cheerleaders and junk which goes with it, despite what some executives think. You need a sport which has genuine interest.

[hlz15]

From a technological point of view, it is obviously very interesting and it will definitely play a part in driver development - although won't entirely replace real life experience as the pressure will never be as critical nor the variables quite so variable.

 

However in terms of it's popularity and commercial value, it's important to remember where we are in terms of economic cycles and the social and cultural phenomena this present stage of those cycles result in.  We've seen gaming have peaks and drop before and those peaks have came in similar economic circumstances.  As we know that these circumstances result in an increased desire for escapism, virtual sports are obviously going to have a peak at this time.  Even the board game Monopoly owes its success to being launched in a similar economic spot.  People during times like these want to believe and imagine a life that is essentially more interesting, exciting and fulfilling than the one they are actually living.  Gaming, and it's good pal gambling, are part of that desire.

 

These same socio-economic circumstances and desires they create are also what results in cultural movements that long for greater simplicity and authenticity like hippies and hipsters, that determine the lengths of hemlines and facial hair and which result in the rise for the demand of power to the people which is oh so easily corrupted into support for populist political parties and figures.  And we know that these are all, thankfully, cyclical.

 

So the cycle will move on.  And gaming will drop back as the need for escapism does also.  As such, heavily investing in and backing esports at the moment is taking a gamble on that not having as large an impact as history would suggest from all previous gaming spikes.

 

All of which means that it's a bit premature to declare esports as being the future regardless of how important and exciting it may feel at this point in time.  And we're getting close to the predicted end of this phase of the economic cycle so it may be that the technological has come a little to late for it to be worth the commercial gamble this time round (which is understandable giving the developments in technology will only ever be pushed by increased desire and demand).

[Juan Kerr]

That grinds my gears so much more than it should... I see it so often, people buying fancy triple screens and then placing them a meter in front of them with a completly wrong FOV.

However I believe Max was running this at some Playseat headquarters, not as his usual setup. It is by the way Project Cars, not iRacing.

Not to worry, forget screens, I'm an ex-national competition gamer myself and I'm sat back waiting for the last bit of VR display development to finish off whats going to be the next amazing chapter. We're gonna be sat in the cars looking in any direction we want full resolution and not taking up space in our houses! 

[Gretsch]

 We don't really consider FIFA or PES as competition to actual football, I can't see why it would be that much different with racing. 

 

 

The difference is huge. In simracing  you are the driver. In football the "driver", the football player, is simulated. You are not actually playing football.  

[Kalmake]

Simracing is a great way of re-visiting the good old days of dangerous tracks and exiting cars. It's a let down that the esport focus at least seems to be on current venues and cars. I get the hardcore sim viewpoint, but I think simracing would do well to pick and choose what is actually worth imitating.

[hlz15]

The difference is huge. In simracing  you are the driver. In football the "driver", the football player, is simulated. You are not actually playing football.  

You're also not actually driving a car.

[EightGear]

You're also not actually driving a car.

But you are simulating the driving. In FIFA you don't simulate playing football.

[Gretsch]

You're also not actually driving a car.

Yes you are.

[Lights]

No, you aren't 'actually' driving a car. You are controlling a virtual, simulated environment, powered by computer code. You drove the car on your way to the building the simulator is housed in ...

 

The context of this discussion started with a comparison to FIFA. I don't find it that weird to say you are driving the car in simracing compared to not playing football in FIFA.

 

In FIFA you press buttons and the computer let's a virtual player control the ball. You don't need any ball technique or skill to play well. You don't even need legs.

In simracing the input is similar than that of a real racing driver, through pedals and a racing wheel. In that aspect I would definitely agree with Gretsch that there is a big difference.

Edited by Lights, 22 January 2017 - 18:29.

[Requiem84]

Not to mention that in FIFA your own team
Players are controlled by the computer. When the ball gets close, you take over the control from the computer.

In simracing online, there is no cpy control. The only thing the cpu does is calcukating the physics.

Simracing does have a downside: its less attractive to look at on tv..

[hlz15]

Yes you are.

If you believe that, you are utterly delusional.  You could no more jump into a real F1 car than you could jump straight into the first team for Real Madrid.  You are not exposed to any of the physicality nor any of the risk.  You are playing pretend.  A well designed pretend but pretend nonetheless.

[savvy2210]

You're also not actually driving a car.

 

Yes you are.

 

Good grief.