125 replies to this topic

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

How do you define the greatest touring car of all time?? it's a bit like asking who's made the greatest telephone of all time, is it the GPO? with their whirring dial? or the Nokkia 3310? which brought mobile telecommunication to the masses, or even the modern day iphone/android thingys??

But we are to talk Touring Cars, and without being majorly biased to my choices, The BMW M3 and 635csi I will point to few other contenders for the throne!!

 

While I do consider the RS500 a very worthy candidate indeed, here are a few more to consider...... My first choice would be the drop dead gorgeous Alfa Romeo 155!! DTM or Super Tourer, both equally successful and you just couldn't help fall in love with that machine....The Mercedes 190E, again a jaw dropping machine of it's time, and you just wanted to have one!!, What about the Rover Vitessee SD1??  The late great Tom Walkinshaw certainly made Some British Leyland Crap seem cool!!, I will also add the various versions of  the E36 BMW's, the 318i/is/320i of the Super Touring days for good measure!, well i had to didn't I?? I will also add the Holden Commodore too!! Well here's my point...

 

What???? I here you say!! Wait....No mention of the Cologne Capri's??, the Audi A4?? Not even the Jaguar XJS?? Sure, all great great great touring cars don't get me wrong! but they are not the greatest, like the aforementioned telephones of the day, did they appeal to the masses?? hell yeah!!, we all went out and bought in our droves!! and that is why the Sierra RS500 is at the top table along with all the rest I mentioned, these were the touring cars that were made available to all!! not just for the works!! and partly that is key to their success, That's what makes the greatest touring car!! But RS500?? it's a close second...for me it's M3 everytime!! 

Edited by BMWTeamBigazzi, 15 January 2017 - 04:04.

[wonk123]

Godzilla!

[Porsche718]

The trouble with this sort of question. What are the parameters for the question.

 

If you talk about touring cars that has been designed, then prepared for competition by the manufacturer alone, then the various BMW candidates would be the choice. I think the Mercedes-Benz 190E had a good run as well.

 

But in my opinion no matter how good the Sierra and Godzilla BECAME .... it was outside tuning houses and race teams who really made them work.

 

So possibly, really two questions, not one?

[stuartbrs]

Greatest SOUNDING would have to be the XJS....

 

https://youtu.be/M9I7GWllPFY

 

Although, the E30 M3`s sound great with that amazing induction howl...

 

Come to think of it, the Holden 308 is a great sounding engine as well.

[arttidesco]

touring car

noun

noun: touring car; plural noun: touring cars

a car designed with room for passengers and luggage.

 

Does Woolf Barnato's “Old Number One” Bentley Speed Six count, won Le Mans twice, plenty of room for at least three passengers and a hamper, unlike any of those mentioned above which might accommodate one passenger if an extra seat is fitted ?

 

 

 

[Porsche718]

plenty of room for at least three passengers and a hamper, unlike any of those mentioned above which might accommodate one passenger if an extra seat is fitted ?

 

 

We had this argument in Australia in the early '70s. Touring car (or sedan or saloon, whatever) ruling was strictly 4 door cars only. Then some relaxing or rules and the first 2 door car accepted to race was the Datsun 1200 Coupe ... but not the TA22 Celica.

 

Why? Because the chap in charge of the rules in CAMS head office decided "if I can't fit in the back, it doesn't comply"!

[brucemoxon]

Well, the RS500 nearly killed Group A Touring Cars.

The R32 Skyline finished it off. So that's the the 'greatest', seeing as nobody else could compete. And lots of people still lust after the R32 and its successors. 

 

Like the 956 / 962 Porsche, the 917 before it and the GT 40 before that. And the 300 SLs before them. I guess destroying all competition is one measure.

 

 

 

Bruce Moxon

[Porsche718]

Hey Bruce good to here from you.

 

Therefore if something so dominates all before it, does that make it the greatest? Or does it simply mean that no one is prepared to spend the $$$$ required to try to beat it. So a class or group finishes, and a new rule set comes along to again seek out a new "greatest".

 

But I repeat my earlier point, and I know you will appreciate it, that both the Serra and the R32 became unbeatable after Dick Johnson and Fred Gibson respective developments turned them reliable and unbeatable.

 

I know that will raise the ire of overseas posters, but Gibbo's locally developed drive-shafts for Godzilla went into overseas cars (and transmission IIRC), and Johnson's reliable power output technology also ended up in Europe for the RS.

 

Anyhow. just my thoughts. Steve

[PZR]

But in my opinion no matter how good the Sierra and Godzilla BECAME .... it was outside tuning houses and race teams who really made them work.

 

 

With regard to 'Godzilla' (the Gr.A BNR32 Skyline GT-R) that appears to be an Australian viewpoint. Meanwhile, back in Japan, Nissan's in-house race division NISMO totally dominated the Japan Touring Car Championship. In 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 a BNR32 Skyline GT-R won every single JTCC race outright...

[PZR]

But I repeat my earlier point, and I know you will appreciate it, that both the Serra and the R32 became unbeatable after Dick Johnson and Fred Gibson respective developments turned them reliable and unbeatable.

 

I know that will raise the ire of overseas posters, but Gibbo's locally developed drive-shafts for Godzilla went into overseas cars (and transmission IIRC), and Johnson's reliable power output technology also ended up in Europe for the RS.

 

 

So the Gibson Motorsport R32 GT-Rs never got beaten, and never broke?

 

I have enormous respect for the GMS team, the cars they built and what they achieved, but it would be nice to see them occasionally tip their hats to the fact that the Gr.A BNR32 was originally designed, built and homologated in Japan, and that the GMS team didn't exactly start from zero with the model...

[Porsche718]

PZR, you are right. First 6 months or so the Gibson R32's did fail. Whether it was the stop/start type tracks we have down here, I don't know but certainly drive-train issues were the ones we tended to suffer from the most.

 

And yes the R32 was always, and will always be a weapon. But for Oz the amount of work needed to make it reliable for our tracks, and of course the annual Bathurst race was enormous. And those developments did find their way overseas.

 

I'm sure GMS woudn't have gone down the R32 route if they didn't recognize the amazing design and potential in the first place.

 

But the earlier point about how to pick a "greatest". Is it one that it designed, built and prepared by the manufacturer in the first place, or one that has had to rely on outside tuning houses, where-ever they may be?

 

So with Nissan and NISMO the R32 has to be close to the top.

 

It's interesting that Britain seemed to stick with the GB/Western European makes for it's BTCC, German races with BMW and Porsche (where they complied), and Japan with the locally released cars.

 

But here we seemed to get a bit of everything to combat the Holden/Ford brigade. Made for interesting racing. And I also don't think that it was Godzilla that killed off Group A in Oz. the country was going through a financial crisis at the time, $$$$ were being pulled out of sponsorships left right and centre, and Australian touring car racing was forced to go back to basics. Teams had to amalgamate to survive and so on.

 

But while Godzilla was here. it was a joy to watch. The 1992 Bathurst it's final victory.

[stuartbrs]

Mark Skaife talking about the GTR and how it was developed here in Australia.

 

https://youtu.be/6GsfgKaAU2w

[PZR]

It's interesting that Britain seemed to stick with the GB/Western European makes for it's BTCC, German races with BMW and Porsche (where they complied), and Japan with the locally released cars.

 

 

JTCC was perhaps a little bit more interesting than you realise? The BNR32 Skyline GT-Rs might have taken every race in the 1990/1/2/3 period, but it was up against plenty of good Sierras and M3s too.

[PZR]

Mark Skaife talking about the GTR and how it was developed here in Australia.

 

https://youtu.be/6GsfgKaAU2w

 

I think that's an example of what I'm trying to get across. Mark Skaife knows what he's talking about(!!!), but from some of his comments the layman might come to the conclusion that GMS developed their cars from stock production road cars and did all the race homologation and development on them from scratch with nothing from Japan.

 

Look in the first Gr.A Kit List for the Japanese works cars and you'll see that it's 95% Japanese-homologated parts. The GMS-developed parts came later, as evolutions to the original homologation. Quite a few of these were adopted for the Japanese series cars, but essentially the Japanese cars were on parallel courses of development dictated by differences in race formats, tracks, tyres etc etc.

 

The GMS cars are sublime, but the Japanese series cars are worthy of great respect too.     

[Glengavel]

I don't suppose I'll be allowed the Jaguar XJC, so I'll take the XJS.

[chunder27]

The Sierra didn't nearly kill touring cars at all, the stupid Nissan did! Hardly anyone could afford to run it, and it rendered all other stuff obsolete pretty much. It was a staggering car, but hardly a run of the mill production car as the Sierra really was, it was bespoke.

 

Anyone could build a Sierra, lots of people did, not all of them got it right, but it was accessible.

 

If any car was not it was the Nissan, and it didn't race everywhere like the Sierra did which won on all sorts of tracks in all sorts of series.

 

I would personally also put forward the E30 M3 as it was quick in multiple forms, Group A, 2 litre BTCC, 2.5 DTM.  And it was a damn good rally car too. And rallycross, hill climbs etc.

 

However the nod for me finally goes to the Sierra, because it was also able to dominate rallycross and was just as accessible there as it was in touring cars.

[Charlieman]

I don't suppose I'll be allowed the Jaguar XJC, so I'll take the XJS.

What was so wrong about the Broadspeed Jaguar XJ12C that raced in Group 2? I'm sure one of them is reliable enough for historic racing and they look gorgeous.

 

Until a few years ago, there was a Sierra shell parked on the roof of Graham Goode's garage around the corner from me.

[2F-001]

Until a few years ago, there was a Sierra shell parked on the roof of Graham Goode's garage around the corner from me.

I shall be passing by there this evening on the way to visit my father!

[kayemod]

E30 M3 for me every time, but what about the Lotus Cortinas?

[john aston]

Having seen the XJC on its embarassing debut it would be towards the bottom of my list.Towards the top would be left field stuff like Fiat Abarth 850TCs , Alfa GTAs and Cologne Capris and perhaps  the most unlikely  touring car that was the early  911   .

[2F-001]

How about an honourable mention for the Mini?

[BRG]

I would personally opt for the BMW 635Csi.  Still looks good today!

 

But the Mini Cooper S is a good call - a real gant killer in its day, that humbled 7 litre muscle cars and the rest.

[jcbc3]

 Impact? Then this one....

 

 

[Charlieman]

But the Mini Cooper S is a good call - a real gant killer in its day, that humbled 7 litre muscle cars and the rest.

Strange, isn't it, that the Mini could beat bigger engined cars for overall positions when tuning rules were a bit tighter. But in contemporary historics, a Mini, A35 or Anglia basically fights for class position.

[BRG]

One reason is that tyres and brakes are far better now, so that Galaxies and Mustangs etc don't go off the boil so soon.  Even so, Minis have still looked pretty competitive at recent Goodwood touring car races.  

[chr1s]

Alfa 155 for me!

[GTMRacer]

Got to be Alan Mann BDA Escort in the hands of Frank Gardner, and a personal favourite because I have owned 2 of them, Bevan Imp. 3 championships in a row!

[Alan Cox]

The Sierra RS500 was celebrated at Autosport International at the NEC this weekend

 

Edited by Alan Cox, 15 January 2017 - 22:24.

[AAGR]

Got to be Alan Mann BDA Escort in the hands of Frank Gardner, and a personal favourite because I have owned 2 of them, Bevan Imp. 3 championships in a row!

 

  Make that 'Alan Mann FVA Escort' (BDA didn't even exist in 1968), and I would agree with you 

[Lee Nicolle]

All Touring Car rules have been aimed at one vehicle or another, always. Gp A at least here in Oz had the control fuel aimed at Turbo engines.

And without extensive mods none of those cars were remotely reliable or very fast. Sierras with Hollinger gearboxes and 9" diffs and the engine could take a LOT of boost because of the fuel, fuel that was not an asset for the V8 n/a engines. Evidently it did not help the Bimmers either.

The Sierras with light switch engines fried tyres and were not great on slower tracks,, but had 600hp. In Europe at least most were cheating too as is well known, as did the M3s as well.

The Rovers were never very fast, when turbos came in the Rovers disapeared as did the Jags.

The Nissan AWD obese thing had better tyres and had 4 wheels driving and cost a fortune to run. Without huge preperation and mods not very fast either.

GpC cars in Oz? Several contenders. Open category would probably be the Commodore or A9X. The Fords were too fat and hampered by the Cleveland lump,, a lump that had a lot more power than the Holden. IF it stayed together! Best engine and the best 'privateer' was KBs Camaro, the car it seemed that CAMS never wanted to be competitive. eg Drum brake rear on a car that had them standard at least on the top models. Again really too heavy but at times was very fast. Even at rallysprints!!

 

Series production?  XU1 or GTHO. The light nimble Torana was on the pace and at least in  late LC &LJ form very reliable. [Aussie 4 speed not Opel gearbox] The Ford was yet again heavy but very powerfull but ate up tyres. 

As a roadcar though the Ford is about 100% better than the narrow gutted noisy uncomfortable Torana. I have driven both and raced Toranas for over 3 decades. And also have a GpC style 351 XE Falcon.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 15 January 2017 - 23:14.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Porsche718
We had this argument in Australia in the early '70s. Touring car (or sedan or saloon, whatever) ruling was strictly 4 door cars only. Then some relaxing or rules and the first 2 door car accepted to race was the Datsun 1200 Coupe ... but not the TA22 Celica.
 
Why? Because the chap in charge of the rules in CAMS head office decided "if I can't fit in the back, it doesn't comply"!

A few little variations here...

The 4-doors only was for over 1600cc cars up to 1964, I'm not aware of that being used after that time. Right through from '65 to the early nineties we had Camaros, Mustangs, Celicas, Escorts, Capris and many other 2-door cars. The change came when it was no longer Touring Car racing, but "V8 Supercar" racing, and there were no 2-door cars produced which fitted the category.

But we did have the argument in '69 about Porsches. And FIA rules won out with the 911T.

The quote "If I can't sit in the back..." actually related to Bathurst and came from Jack Hinxman. He was, as is well known, an ex-copper, so he was a fair size. I doubt that he ever tried to put his derriere into the back of any cars, however.

And to add my bit to the thread, my personal favourite is the S4 Holden, a one-year wonder. But what surprises me is that the Mk 2 Jag 3.8 hasn't been mentioned.

As for the Sierra, it was a victim of its time. Homologation of parts by racing teams led it to have, of all things, a 9" Ford differential available for it. This gave it a huge range of ratios and greater reliability, eliminating a weak link.

And for the Sierra, one has to wonder how rife cheating was when one considers the results of a serious challenge to their integrity at Bathurst in 1996.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

How about an honourable mention for the Mini?

Absolutely 

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

I don't suppose I'll be allowed the Jaguar XJC, so I'll take the XJS.

You an pick that glorious BL Behemoth!! it's a shame, cos it was BL that killed it off!! 

[bradbury west]

I always thought the Galaxies had the brakes sorted more or less from the start in 63. Mr Sears had a bit of clutch trouble in his first race, but I recall a bit of a brouhaha at Brands with Dan Gurney's Galaxie and the brakes, possibly for the six hour race, unchecked, which parties with Jaguar interests, it was said, raised objections with the RAC over non homologation, leading to acrimonious correspondence in Autosport.
Talking of Minis et al etc in period, George Shepherd kept the Jaguars honest in UCE 13. The group three Minis were always exciting, think Rod Embley in his Downton version.

Edit.
For those not familiar with those cars, Doc Shepherd had a Don Moore prepped special A40 and Rod Embley an 1132cc then later 1300 something cc Mini, later driving a Twin engined device, possibly the Gordon Allen engined car from memory which reputedly used some key castings from a 2.4 Jaguar with Allen's own cranks. These were of course running in the old group 3 class, or equivalent, as the Gp 1,2 and 3 did not appear until 1961 from memory, largely at the behest of the manufacturers who did not like their cars beaten by upstart hot rods.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 16 January 2017 - 10:02.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

 Impact? Then this one....

 

 

I will say for Citroen's first foray into Touring Cars, Spot On, Unlike their first forays into rallying in the 80's.... did their homework very well!!

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Can I just say a big Huge Thank You, to ALL that replied....I kinda wasn't expecting that sort of response... but Keep it coming!! I just wanted to talk Touring Cars instead of the F1 s**t that seems to be the talk of most!!

That's the beauty of Touring Cars!! in the corner of our minds there is that touring car gem you think is the best, but is it???? and it is best, they are all the best in their own little way  

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

The Sierra RS500 was celebrated at Autosport International at the NEC this weekend

 

Am never sure on Reuter's Paint Scheme that year?? The more I hated it, the more I looked at it, the more l looked at it, the more I liked it?? go figure ??? cos i can't lol

[Glengavel]

You an pick that glorious BL Behemoth!! it's a shame, cos it was BL that killed it off!! 

 

Yes, I've got an old copy of Car which has a feature on the TWR XJS, and there's a smaller article about the Broadspeed XJCs; the author reckons they might have seen some better results if the programme had been allowed to continue.

[john aston]

Can I just say a big Huge Thank You, to ALL that replied....I kinda wasn't expecting that sort of response... but Keep it coming!! I just wanted to talk Touring Cars instead of the F1 s**t that seems to be the talk of most!!

That's the beauty of Touring Cars!! in the corner of our minds there is that touring car gem you think is the best, but is it???? and it is best, they are all the best in their own little way

 Many of us are  so ancient on here that even the term 'touring car 'is a bit nouveau .Saloon cars, now you're talking....

[stuartbrs]

Porsche 911... I sort of agree it doesn`t really count as a touring car, given it`s a Sports car? Same as the RX7.

 

But that argument has been done to death. 

 

I have an M20 powered BMW E30 Improved Production car, so much fun to drive. E30`s are great things, very playful!

 

[Henri Greuter]

I'm surprised the mid 70s BMW CSL's haven't been mentioned yet....

 

 

henri

[Lee Nicolle]

One reason is that tyres and brakes are far better now, so that Galaxies and Mustangs etc don't go off the boil so soon.  Even so, Minis have still looked pretty competitive at recent Goodwood touring car races.  

Galaxies are big cars with big drums, in 427 form very powerfull but drums have their limitations!  Unless someone homolgated discs on them?

Mustangs have discs and in reality a similar power to weight. 11" rotors and Kelsey Hayes 4 spots may not sound much these days but with modern pads and rear shoes are quite efective.

[jcbc3]

I seem to remember a story doing the rounds, that there was an unofficial 'club' of racing drivers that had crashed their civilian E30 M3's and that it was rather big. Again, my failing memory, say that at least H-J Stuck was in the group.

[Lee Nicolle]

Yes, I've got an old copy of Car which has a feature on the TWR XJS, and there's a smaller article about the Broadspeed XJCs; the author reckons they might have seen some better results if the programme had been allowed to continue.

Those XJC seemed to have problems,, as the Stonie cartoon put it oil consumption was about the same as fuel.

The TWR Jags were better, a litre of Motul every stop at Bathurst. Poor drivers with the seat zip tied in! I was surprised that CAMS did not pull that car in.

[Allan Lupton]

 Many of us are  so ancient on here that even the term 'touring car 'is a bit nouveau .Saloon cars, now you're talking....

I'm with John Aston on nomenclature and on another point one assumes that Ford gave their cars "RS" designations to show they were Racing or Rally cars and therefore a bit different from their mass-production origins.

The other difference is in the racing: (a) I remember saloon car racing being a clean and relatively un-dangerous sport and (b) from what I've seen on TV, touring car is a contact sport conducted with a level of bumping and boring that I never want to see at any circuit I visit..

[2F-001]

I have heard, or read, it claimed that the sporting regulations governing the BTCC series, in its Toca guise, have some subtly different wording with regard to contact - i.e. a less stringent policy than 'normal' - presumably to promote more aggressive racing. Does anyone know if there is any truth in this?

[chunder27]

I would imagine there is now yes.  But I would think this was brought in during the Super Touring era when it got harder and harder to make passes.

 

I was watching some footage the other day from the 98 German series and the contact in that was unreal, a hell of a lot of team racing that has always seemed to be common in German touring car racing, and a lot of contact for positions.

 

Makes BTCC of the time look tame honestly.

[PZR]

I'm being slightly biased here as a fan and an owner, but I feel the C10-series Nissan Skyline 2000 GT-Rs deserve to be Mentioned In Dispatches.
The 4-door PGC10 model (launched in February 1969) and 2-door 'Hard Top' coupe KPGC10 model (launched in in October 1971) were classic homologation specials and featured a specification that would be noteworthy for a car in any market of the world at that period, but were all the more remarkable for being both from Japan and exclusively for Japan.

 

They racked up an extraordinary record in Japanese domestic racing, taking more than 50 class and overall race victories during the 1969~1972 period.   

[Lee Nicolle]

I'm with John Aston on nomenclature and on another point one assumes that Ford gave their cars "RS" designations to show they were Racing or Rally cars and therefore a bit different from their mass-production origins.

The other difference is in the racing: (a) I remember saloon car racing being a clean and relatively un-dangerous sport and (b) from what I've seen on TV, touring car is a contact sport conducted with a level of bumping and boring that I never want to see at any circuit I visit..

I believe the rules are you hit one car or the fence once a lap,,BTCC V8SC etc.

[chunder27]

Another thing, when you are used to watching full contact racing as I am on short ovals, the stuff that goes on in BTCC is so badly done, so poorly executed!

 

There were some drivers who were very clever in the ways they managed to use contact, very subtle.  But some of the dross done by the likes of Plato and Collard and in particular Anthony Reid (one of the dirtiest drivers I have ever had to witness) has no place on a stock car track, let alone a posh track.