4042 replies to this topic

[SCUDmissile]

After 2 GP i think it's pretty clear Mercedes is still a bit ahead in Q but they need full power. I'm OK with that if we are so close
For the future my only concern is about the start. In Australia it seems Mercedes solved the bad starts of the past and they were very strong. Bottas was close to steal 2nd place from vettel. It could be a problem if we are in the dirty side of the grid every GP.

So its not a big deal if we cant find a couple of tenths to beat Mercedes in Q but we need to be 2nd after the first corner.

I think a bit of Melbourne was also being on the dirty side, which ibviously is the case here, but in a wet start it maybe wont mean too much.

Race will start ynder safety car anyways lol.

[NervousNerys]

They have already according to Dutch tv

Oh, not surprised really it's a bit blatant!

[Kelateboy]

Mercs are too fast in S2 and that makes the difference.

 

Nope. Mercedes were untouchable in S3.

 

Mercedes must have turned up the power in Q3 especially for the 2nd run. Hamilton was clocking 328kph in his Q3 runs whereas in Q1/Q2 he was only touching 324kph. His time for S3 improved markedly from Q1 to Q3.

 

Edit : Vettel gave away 0.112s to Lewis in the middle sector vs 0.057s in the final sector. You are right.

Edited by Kelateboy, 08 April 2017 - 11:21.

[Kelateboy]

http://www.espn.co.u...e-compared-merc

 

Sebastian Vettel: Ferrari still lacking qualifying pace compared to Merc

[JonnyJ]

Nope. Mercedes were untouchable in S3.

Mercedes must have turned up the power in Q3 especially for the 2nd run. Hamilton was clocking 328kph in his Q3 runs whereas in Q1/Q2 he was only touching 324kph. His time for S3 improved markedly from Q1 to Q3.

I'm re-watching it now and Lewis was 326.6 in Q2. BOT was 327.3

[ViMaMo]

Alrighty then, seems like it's a case of similarly matched cars. Awesome awesome. Finally Ferrari have caught up. Going to be a interesting season.

[MikeV1987]

reminds me of the ferrari vs mclaren days of 07/08

 

hopefully the cars stay evenly matched

[Kelateboy]

I'm re-watching it now and Lewis was 326.6 in Q2. BOT was 327.3

 

Bottas was always ahead of Hamilton at the speedtrap in all sessions - FP3, Q1 and Q2. But in Q3, Hamilton edged ahead of Bottas.

[Frank]

Nope. Mercedes were untouchable in S3.

 

Mercedes must have turned up the power in Q3 especially for the 2nd run. Hamilton was clocking 328kph in his Q3 runs whereas in Q1/Q2 he was only touching 324kph. His time for S3 improved markedly from Q1 to Q3.

 

Edit : Vettel gave away 0.112s to Lewis in the middle sector vs 0.057s in the final sector. You are right.

What does speed trap got to do with sector time? Magnussen has the highest at 329.7. We only lose few hundreds of a second in S1 and S3 but we lost more than 1/10th in S2.

[anyeis]

Oh, not surprised really it's a bit blatant!

 

What can they do if the wings can pass the tests?

[ConsiderAndGo]

This cars a beast.

 

Should be an awesome season! Lets hope we can keep up with the development race!

[Wuzak]

Race will start ynder safety car anyways lol.

 

And when the track is suitable they will stop and do a standing start.

[maaaarsh]

What can they do if the wings can pass the tests?

 

Change the tests.

[Marklar]

Regarding qualifying Bahrain next week will be interesting. It's neither an outright Mercedes track nor a particulary strong Hamilton track (Vettel splitted the Mercedes in 2015 in qualifying and Kimi almost won the race for example), while both Melbourne and Shanghai were it in the past. I can see pretty good chances there for the first pole of the season.

 

Regarding tomorrow: Ferrari was a bit slower on the speed traps than Mercedes and may run with more downforce. In theory this should be helpful if it's wet. Even if not the long runs (and Melbourne) suggested that Ferrari may have the edge in race pace (then again the long runs in Melbourne suggested the exact opposite) and overtaking is easier here too.

Edited by Marklar, 08 April 2017 - 11:57.

[NervousNerys]

What can they do if the wings can pass the tests?

i don't think they do tests on the winglets they're just covered by the flexing bodywork rules.

[Jordan44]

i don't think they do tests on the winglets they're just covered by the flexing bodywork rules.

The FIA do perform a flex/deflection test on the front wing, it was toughened in 2015 after Red Bull's illegal wing in Abu Dhabi

Edited by Jordan44, 08 April 2017 - 12:26.

[NervousNerys]

The FIA do perform a flex/deflection test on the front wing, it was toughened in 2015 after Red Bull's illegal wing in Abu Dhabi

Yes on the main wing tho, not the winglets.

[Kelateboy]

/8 a

What does speed trap got to do with sector time? Magnussen has the highest at 329.7. We only lose few hundreds of a second in S1 and S3 but we lost more than 1/10th in S2.

 

 

Ferrari were competitive in S1. In fact, Vettel had the best S1 time of 23.998 vs Hamilton's best of 24.036 and Bottas' of 24.152

 

I don't have the mini sector timing to state whether Ferrari were losing time on the high speed S section of turn 7/8 or the double left-hander of turn 9/10 for S2 but Vettel was faster than Bottas here, but significantly slower than Hamilton.

 

For the final sector, Vettel lost only 0.057 to Hamilton but gave away a significant time to Bottas 0.151.

 

IMO, top speed for S3 is important for top teams like Ferrari n Mercedes. It is where you control the race and it is where most of overtaking take place on this circuit. It is no coincidence that Mercedes/Ferrari drivers with the highest top speed at the trap have the best S3 times - Bottas 328kph 40.469; Hamilton 328kph 40.563; Vettel 325kph 40.620; Raikkonen 323kph 40.741.

Granted S3 also has aero section of Chinese Parabolica (T11-T13) and traction zone T14 hairpin  but a significant time is spend on back-straight and FS straight where top speed is paramount.

[ferkan]

Top speed is important, but 2kmh on longest straight on calendar is not enough to pass. I feel like Ferrari runs a bit more DF, Magnussen was fastest in straight line. For race its better to have more DF as tires work better and last longer.

[Seanspeed]

What does speed trap got to do with sector time? Magnussen has the highest at 329.7. We only lose few hundreds of a second in S1 and S3 but we lost more than 1/10th in S2.

I think the point trying to be made there was that Mercedes turned up the power in Q3 more than Ferrari.  I dont know if that's actually what happened, but that was why the figures were being brought up.  I noticed it myself while watching.  Apparently Lewis was 326kph in Q2 according a poster above, but I didn't catch that myself.  I saw 323kph.  Either way, Ferrari definitely are down on straight line speed a bit so even if they're faster in the race overall, that kind of deficit will be hard to overcome to actually overtake on-track.  

 

Still, quite encouraged.  As somebody said, this has been Mercedes ground for a while now.  And Lewis is always a beast here.  To be so close bodes well going forward.  

[EthanM]

meh the merc engine turned up to 11 has maybe 2 tenths over the Ferrari. In normal (racing) conditions it doesn't.

 

This won't get fixed until the next engine iteration (if then) but 2 tenths is not a gap that allows Mercedes to do what they did for 3 seasons, run away and hide. So I 'm cool with that.

 

As to overtaking, slipstream + drs effect is pretty strong in china, plus you get to effectively double tap

[Kelateboy]

 

Albert Fabrega ES @AlbertFabrega

 

Detalle d la zona alzada en el fondo plano del Ferrari SF70H esta mañana

 

 

 

[Seanspeed]

meh the merc engine turned up to 11 has maybe 2 tenths over the Ferrari. In normal (racing) conditions it doesn't.

 

This won't get fixed until the next engine iteration (if then) but 2 tenths is not a gap that allows Mercedes to do what they did for 3 seasons, run away and hide. So I 'm cool with that.

 

As to overtaking, slipstream + drs effect is pretty strong in china, plus you get to effectively double tap

The double tap will probably be the main hope.  I doubt we'll get lucky with the strategy again.  

 

Who knows though, maybe we'll get a monster start.  

[Claudiu]

 

 

Albert Fabrega ES @AlbertFabrega

 

Detalle d la zona alzada en el fondo plano del Ferrari SF70H esta mañana

 

 

 

 

It doesn't look very clean to my eyes... In fact it looks like a copy paste job.

[encircled]

Looks like the Ferrari PU loses a bit of steam just at the end of the long straight vs the Mercedes.

 

Edited by encircled, 08 April 2017 - 14:32.

[Seanspeed]

Looks like the Ferrari PU loses a bit of steam just at the end of the long straight vs the Mercedes.

 

Keep in mind that is not Vettel's best lap.  It was his 1st run in Q3.  

 

Seeing his last lap, he doesn't drop in speed while still full throttle like he does in the video you posted.  

 

Anyways, as agile as the Ferrari looks, it still doesn't seem to have that raw traction and composure of the Mercedes.  

[Claudiu]

Looks like the Ferrari PU loses a bit of steam just at the end of the long straight vs the Mercedes.

 

 

It can also be down on the setup, it doesn't necessary means our engine is slower, to my eyes the Ferrari is hitting the limiter a bit faster than the Mercedes. It's just a matter of setup in the end.

And the difference in S3 was insignificant anyway... something like 0.05 for Mercedes.

I wouldn't be concerned about our engine too much.

Edited by Claudiu, 08 April 2017 - 14:48.

[Claudiu]

Keep in mind that is not Vettel's best lap.  It was his 1st run in Q3.  

 

Seeing his last lap, he doesn't drop in speed while still full throttle like he does in the video you posted.  

 

Anyways, as agile as the Ferrari looks, it still doesn't seem to have that raw traction and composure of the Mercedes.  

 

I also think it's not about the power anymore, Mercedes had their biggest advantage in S2 which is the technical part of the circuit (in fact I was expecting Mercedes to have the edge in S1 & S3 while we in S2 but it was completely the other way around). 

They are a bit better on traction coming out of corners and there's where the difference is being made.

Edited by Claudiu, 08 April 2017 - 14:47.

[ferkan]

Keep in mind that is not Vettel's best lap. It was his 1st run in Q3.

Seeing his last lap, he doesn't drop in speed while still full throttle like he does in the video you posted.

Anyways, as agile as the Ferrari looks, it still doesn't seem to have that raw traction and composure of the Mercedes.

It does look more planted in corners to me though.

[alessandro2013]

Nope. Mercedes were untouchable in S3.

 

Mercedes must have turned up the power in Q3 especially for the 2nd run. Hamilton was clocking 328kph in his Q3 runs whereas in Q1/Q2 he was only touching 324kph. His time for S3 improved markedly from Q1 to Q3.

 

Edit : Vettel gave away 0.112s to Lewis in the middle sector vs 0.057s in the final sector. You are right.

[EthanM]

They are a bit better on traction coming out of corners and there's where the difference is being made.

 

 

traction or power delivery from the engine?

 

to me it doesn't look like Seb is having traction issues, meaning he has to delay throttle demand to ensure he doesn't lose the rear. It looks like when the Merc makes a throttle demand the delivery is just slightly higher than the Ferrari

[AlexS]

Ferrari is running with a lot of wing, the top speed says that. Now maybe they can take out the gurney flap, but loose downforce. 

 

I saw Hamilton pushing the car around more than in Australia.

[AlexS]

Slowest top speed Ferrari(Kimi) 323.9kph, slowest top speed Mercedes (Hamilton): 328kph

 

Bottas: 328.8kph, Vettel: 325.3kph.

 

Diiferences are significative and that might mean that will be difficult to pass them on track with DRS.

Edited by AlexS, 08 April 2017 - 15:11.

[Tardis40]

Looks like the Ferrari PU loses a bit of steam just at the end of the long straight vs the Mercedes.

 

That could be gear ratio, or engine mapping.

Top speed is an overrated statistic.  What is more important is how quickly you achieve top speed.

[Kulturen]

traction or power delivery from the engine?

 

to me it doesn't look like Seb is having traction issues, meaning he has to delay throttle demand to ensure he doesn't lose the rear. It looks like when the Merc makes a throttle demand the delivery is just slightly higher than the Ferrari

 

It's actually hard to impossible to know for sure seeing how Mercedes has had significant advantages in both over the last few years.

[tmekt]

3457 kph  Ferrari don't stand a chance 

[cokata]

After taking a closer look in the comparison video with Lewis's pole and Vettels 1st Q3 lap i saw a few things. The straight line speed is now much closer than it was in Australia. No team changed any of their wings/monkey seats for China, so probably Merc used a bit more front wing flap angle, and/or Ferrari used a little less. This also aligns with the observable increase of oversteer that Merc had here compared with Australia.

 

On the pit straight the Ferrari was actually slightly quicker and reached turn 1 just a bit sooner than the Merc. On most other straights it was very close, with the only difference came in the long back straight where the Ferrari reached 327kph and then it started clipping and his speed dropped to 322kph before Vettel started to brake for the hairpin, Hamilton reached 329kph.

 

It looked also like the Ferrari was more comparable in slow speed performance, and it looked like it had at least as good traction as the Merc. However the braking advantage that we saw in Australia disappeared here, and on high speed corners both cars also looked very closely matched. Really the biggest difference came in turn 8 where Hamilton carried a lot more speed than Vettel for whatever reason. The apex looked quite bumpy, so maybe the Merc has a more compliant suspension than the Ferrari, or just in that lap Vettel carried less speed through there (after all he improved his S2 time on this 2nd run). All in all it looks very close between both cars, and it is a shame that tomorrow will be dry as won't be able too see if the Ferrari really has a better tire wear, or Australia was an outlier. 

[Seanspeed]

3457 kph  Ferrari don't stand a chance 

Yea, but how quickly are they reaching it?  That's what is important. 

[Seanspeed]

Really the biggest difference came in turn 8 where Hamilton carried a lot more speed than Vettel for whatever reason. The apex looked quite bumpy, so maybe the Merc has a more compliant suspension than the Ferrari, or just in that lap Vettel carried less speed through there (after all he improved his S2 time on this 2nd run). 

I noticed that as well and am unsure what to make of it.  It's where I'd have expected the Ferrari to have done better, but you're right - it was quite bumpy mid-corner which *potentially* upset the Ferrari more than it did Mercedes, leading to a less composed line.  

 

Though it's interesting that Vettel makes up some of the difference through Turn 9 and 10 and is able to get on the throttle earlier.  

[9nelson]

Is it too optimistic to believe that Ferrari is just running a setup more inclined to a damp track?

[Claudiu]

Is it too optimistic to believe that Ferrari is just running a setup more inclined to a damp track?

 

Yes

[alessandro2013]

Yea, but how quickly are they reaching it?  That's what is important. 

Too quick (cit, RB radio)

Edited by alessandro2013, 08 April 2017 - 17:43.

[alessandro2013]

3457 kph  Ferrari don't stand a chance 

You miss ..the point...