162 replies to this topic

[RebeccaS]

Not surprising these things had came out of his mouth. https://www.carkeys....ersies?76542rh 

 

His comment on women drivers - "If there was somebody that was capable, they wouldn't be taken seriously anyway, so they would never have a car that is capable of competing." 

 

Can't wait to see this be proven wrong and we see a mixed grid, Susie Wolff is an incredible addition to the sport.

 

[dweller23]

I think Susie Wolff meme is getting a bit old now. She literally did not accomplish any success in motor sport as a competitor.

[Marklar]

I think he is pretty much spot on that one. Even if it is a shame.

[Vielleicht]

He is right in the fact that it would cause female drivers difficulty, but I don't like saying never. So few female drivers try to get into racing so the sample of them is so small. I fully believe there could be a female driver capable of competing at the top. More difficult? Sure. Never? No.

[Clatter]

I think he is wrong. It is extremely difficult for anyone to reach the top in motorsport, and even harder for a woman to make it in even the lower echelons, but if someone ever comes along who really is good enough and with enough determination to progress through the lower series, I think a team will snap her up. The sponsorship potentials would phenomenal. But it really would have to be a case of winning everything on the way up. There wouldn't be any shortcuts and they would have to tread every rung of the ladder.

[balmybaldwin]

If a woman can fly a fighter jet (they can and do) then they can drive an F1 car.

 

If women can ride a bike down stuff you can't walk down an be in the running with the boys (e.g. Rachel Atherton) then they clearly can have the balls to drive a the limit and risk their lives (people often cite this as a missing element)

 

tens of thousands of young boys in this country and a lot of others get taken down the local junior kart track to have a go each year, and eventually every 5 years or so 1 "F1 worthy" candidate plops out of the other end of the system. of course these few will have been backed to the hilt by rich parents and/or sponsors which are both relatively rare things.

 

I think I've seen about 3 girls at the local junior karting over a year going most weekends..... what really is the chance of finding a Nigella Mansel with such odds? and to top it off she'd have to have parents with deep pockets.... thankfully she could appeal to sponsors that boys cant

[Afterburner]

I think I've seen about 3 girls at the local junior karting over a year going most weekends..... what really is the chance of finding a Nigella Mansel with such odds? and to top it off she'd have to have parents with deep pockets.... thankfully she could appeal to sponsors that boys cant

And a mustache. God, that would be scary.

[ANF]

Back on topic.

[AvranaKern]

Wow. It's been a while since I last saw a webpage that uses Tahoma as a body font. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have never seen one since 1999. Way to go, carkeys.co.uk. Your take on nostalgia is as gallant as it gets.

[jonpollak]

Suzie Wolf couldn't carry Christina Nielsen lunch box. No offense intended Becky.
Jp

[Otaku]

 

Can't wait to see this be proven wrong and we see a mixed grid, Susie Wolff is an incredible addition to the sport.

 

 

Susie Wolff? You mean the driver that has 0 wins, 0 fastest laps and 0 poles in every racing series she raced on?

 

 

 

Now tell me that she wasn't in F1 just for promotion and for "being a woman".... how many male drivers with that kind of careear do you know that made it to F1 without big big pockets, or even with big pockets.

Edited by Otaku, 31 January 2017 - 04:19.

[taran]

I think he is wrong. It is extremely difficult for anyone to reach the top in motorsport, and even harder for a woman to make it in even the lower echelons, but if someone ever comes along who really is good enough and with enough determination to progress through the lower series, I think a team will snap her up. The sponsorship potentials would phenomenal. But it really would have to be a case of winning everything on the way up. There wouldn't be any shortcuts and they would have to tread every rung of the ladder.

 

If a woman can make it through the feeder series, she will get a lot of attention.

 

Danica Patrick is a good example. She is talented but has a much bigger media presence than her results justify.

And she was a sponsor magnet until lack of results in NASCAR became too obvious to ignore.

 

The first woman in F3/GP2 who does well is likely to start a Max Verstappen-like hiring frenzy.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Susie Wolff? You mean the driver that has 0 wins, 0 fastest laps and 0 poles in every racing series she raced on?

 

 

 

Now tell me that she wasn't in F1 just for promotion and for "being a woman".... how many male drivers with that kind of careear do you know that made it to F1 without big big pockets, or even with big pockets.

 

Ouch.

 

A shockingly bad record!

[ensign14]

Despite which she was twice shortlisted for the Autosport Young Driver Award.

 

Which proves the point that any half-decent woman driver ought to be able to find sponsors/publicity &c for F1.

 

Compare: Carmen Jorda.  Three seasons of GP3.  No points.  In her third season, her finishing positions were last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last, last and last.   Although technically in the second Spa race she had three drivers classified behind her, who had all retired.

[chunder27]

The good old female drivers debate.

 

Susie was on a 5 live sports panel last week and if nothing else was funny, engaging and offered some decent opinion and debate to the show.

 

I think she simply aimed too high, she did not really achieve enough at a lower level to warrant where she got to, and that is based simply on good management in her career, picking the right fella from no doubt a horde of suitors, and being a woman.

 

You cannot blame her, or Jorda. But you CAN blame the teams involved, the idiots who think it's a good idea to actually do more damage to female participation and have a talentless driver in their team for tv appearance reasons, nothing more. Susie I think could do a job, was not hopeless and for certain things in F1 was fine, but clearly there were reasons she was there over and above sheer driving talent.

 

The bigger issue is that in plenty of other far more demanding types of motorsport there are woman that have been able to compete and win. Some there are not. But in circuit racing they find it very hard to get to the top for some reason.

 

I have some ideas why, but they are too controversial to print here.  But I imagine some folk can probably guess.

[Clatter]

The good old female drivers debate.

Susie was on a 5 live sports panel last week and if nothing else was funny, engaging and offered some decent opinion and debate to the show.

I think she simply aimed too high, she did not really achieve enough at a lower level to warrant where she got to, and that is based simply on good management in her career, picking the right fella from no doubt a horde of suitors, and being a woman.

You cannot blame her, or Jorda. But you CAN blame the teams involved, the idiots who think it's a good idea to actually do more damage to female participation and have a talentless driver in their team for tv appearance reasons, nothing more. Susie I think could do a job, was not hopeless and for certain things in F1 was fine, but clearly there were reasons she was there over and above sheer driving talent.

The bigger issue is that in plenty of other far more demanding types of motorsport there are woman that have been able to compete and win. Some there are not. But in circuit racing they find it very hard to get to the top for some reason.

I have some ideas why, but they are too controversial to print here. But I imagine some folk can probably guess.

The good side of it is that the publicity they generated might inspire others.

[CSF]

The good side of it is that the publicity they generated might inspire others.

 

 

Exactly, its rarely the first that breaks the barrier, but the first is often an inspiration for others in the future. 

[savvy2210]

 

Not surprising these things had came out of his mouth. https://www.carkeys....ersies?76542rh 

 

His comment on women drivers - "If there was somebody that was capable, they wouldn't be taken seriously anyway, so they would never have a car that is capable of competing." 

 

Can't wait to see this be proven wrong and we see a mixed grid, Susie Wolff is an incredible addition to the sport.

 

In what way is (was) she incredible?

 

Please tell me, I would really like to know.

[chunder27]

I do think her role now is far more suitable, an ambassador for female participation.  Even though she achieved very little on pure talent, she was not slow, she could compete to a certain level in DTM a place where multiple F1 race winners struggled for years.

 

As I have said many times about this topic, the sad part is that circuit racing lags way behind so many other forms of motorsport, many of them non MSA backed.  I regularly watch women in junior contact formulae in short oval racing and they are not women to us, they are just racers. They win and lose as much as the men do. Maybe not at the higher levels but at junior level the talent pool is equal, if not in the last few years slightly biased towards girls to be honest. They are just as aggressive, just as talented, just as ruthless.

 

In their minds and ours watching they are just a group of young kids racing, the whole female participation thing has moved on to such a level that it doesn't even matter, a stage ahead of where females competing in motorsport just about everywhere else in the world are. .

 

That is not just a sad reflection on world racings lack of ability to really treat women equally, but also of a lack of ability to attract female competitors. And I can only put that down to a general sexism in the whole world motorsport scene.

 

Having said that, women are less likely to be interested per se, usually only through parental involvement in the past, and keeping them interested at 15-18 is almost impossible at lower levels for obvious reasons.

Edited by chunder27, 31 January 2017 - 11:12.

[7MGTEsup]

I think in this media lead world that a half decent female driver would be fast tracked to Formula 1. We just haven't seen her yet but I'm sure one will come along. There is no physiological reason a woman can't compete with a man in a racing car.

[sopa]

 

tens of thousands of young boys in this country and a lot of others get taken down the local junior kart track to have a go each year, and eventually every 5 years or so 1 "F1 worthy" candidate plops out of the other end of the system. of course these few will have been backed to the hilt by rich parents and/or sponsors which are both relatively rare things.

 

I think I've seen about 3 girls at the local junior karting over a year going most weekends..... what really is the chance of finding a Nigella Mansel with such odds? and to top it off she'd have to have parents with deep pockets.... thankfully she could appeal to sponsors that boys cant

 

That's a really important point brought here among all the discussion. Women go into racing much less than men, so yeah, the sample size is small. It is not out of the realms of possibilities that one day we might get a seriously talented woman driver with (obviously) deep pockets to make it through the ranks. A Michele Mouton of Grand Prix racing. But such drivers would always be an exception.

 

Edit: Also Jutta Kleinschmidt won the Paris-Dakar rally back in 2001. One heck of an achievement I'd say. But as mentioned, these instances are exceptions.

Edited by sopa, 31 January 2017 - 12:27.

[chunder27]

OK I take the point and it's a superb one. This is something I am very interested in as you might have guessed.

 

In Brisca Minis a few years ago there were 6 or 7 girls who were winning regularly and a fair few more competing at all levels. They won the majority of big races titles and the like.

 

I recall years ago numerous women in autograss racing who raced with the ladies for a bit, then the men and beat them all in the most heavyweight classes and still do, one was taken into circuit racing I think by someone and did OK.

 

It depends where you talent spot, these sort of categories are unknown to most of you, yet there is massive female talent there.  But as I say, they race as equals not as women, and race for fun and laughs, not for a career.

 

But the talent pool there is far, far wider in terms of equality than it ever will be in karting.

 

I have friends who race motorbikes off-road and you will always have 4 or 5 ladies and girls racing in a group of 100 men, some of them are useless as are the men, some are just as good as the guys, but we have not yet had one that has risen above and been as good as the top men.

 

But you are right, very few girls unless their Dad was a racer are going to really want to do it, and that's an issue of awareness and letting them have a go, something that should be done far, far more as it is with countless other sports.

 

Regarding Bernie, off the cuff obviously, but it doesn't help does it. Read the comments from James Cracknells wife abut how she was treated as a media person. It is rife in F1 sorry. All they are good for is media and PR it seems. Utter rot.

[loki0420]

 

Not surprising these things had came out of his mouth. https://www.carkeys....ersies?76542rh 

 

His comment on women drivers - "If there was somebody that was capable, they wouldn't be taken seriously anyway, so they would never have a car that is capable of competing." 

 

Can't wait to see this be proven wrong and we see a mixed grid, Susie Wolff is an incredible addition to the sport.

 

We saw this mixed grid with exact same Susie at DTM which is even less physically demanding than F1. We know why she and other woman were there and we know how they performed. Can't see a slight chance for women in F1 apart from the same reasons they were in DTM.

[Tony Mandara]

Bernie's comments on women drivers and their prospects are not even close to being one of his biggest controversies.

(Didn't Susie Stoddart (effectively) get where she did (F1) by marrying the boss?)

Edited by Tony Mandara, 31 January 2017 - 14:48.

[loki0420]

Bernie's comments on women drivers and their prospects are not even close to being one of his biggest controversies.

(Didn't Susie Stoddart (effectively) get where she did (F1) by marrying the boss?)

Not boss, but Toto owned some shares at Williams and i think he still has small amount.

[LeClerc]

We saw this mixed grid with exact same Susie at DTM which is even less physically demanding than F1. We know why she and other woman were there and we know how they performed. Can't see a slight chance for women in F1 apart from the same reasons they were in DTM.

Low blow!

Wollf/Stoddart was pants because she was pants. I don't think having ovaries had anything to do with that.

[loki0420]

Low blow!

Wollf/Stoddart was pants because she was pants. I don't think having ovaries had anything to do with that.

She had a drive because of them, thats what i'm saying.

[LeClerc]

She had a drive because of them, thats what i'm saying.

That was not my point of contention.

[ensign14]

Wollf/Stoddart was pants because she was pants. I don't think having ovaries had anything to do with that.

 

Although amusingly in 2010 she beat both Ralf Schumacher and Coulthard in the DTM...
 

[LeClerc]

Although amusingly in 2010 she beat both Ralf Schumacher and Coulthard in the DTM...

Coulthard was abysmal in DTM, and Ralf...well I've been stuck behind him on the roads where I live His ex is faster.

Edited by LeClerc, 31 January 2017 - 15:19.

[BRG]

A few throwaway sexists comments are hardly BE's biggest controversies!

 

How about bribery and paying off the German state to avoid prison?

[Fastcake]

Or on another German point, how he admired Hitler's ability to get things done.

[Clatter]

Or on another German point, how he admired Hitler's ability to get things done.

That must be one of the reasons he was so pally with Moseley.

[Clatter]

We saw this mixed grid with exact same Susie at DTM which is even less physically demanding than F1. We know why she and other woman were there and we know how they performed. Can't see a slight chance for women in F1 apart from the same reasons they were in DTM.

So are you saying that because of how those few woman performed that spells the end for all possible female entrants?

[loki0420]

So are you saying that because of how those few woman performed that spells the end for all possible female entrants?

I say that competition element is absent from the beginning. She could be 5 seconds slower than worst driver on the grid but would still have chance because she's a woman and that is exactly what i don't like. It'll be like pay driver in 10th degree.

 

And on the performance side - yes, i do believe they stand no chance against men in auto/motosport. But occasional success is possible in lower categories, not in F1.

[Clatter]

I say that competition element is absent from the beginning. She could be 5 seconds slower than worst driver on the grid but would still have chance because she's a woman and that is exactly what i don't like. It'll be like pay driver in 10th degree.

 

And on the performance side - yes, i do believe they stand no chance against men in auto/motosport. But occasional success is possible in lower categories, not in F1.

 

I think your just blinded by how relatively few woman there are in motorsport, and ignoring the thousands of men who are equally bad or worse. As in all sports only the best will make it to the pinnacle and I see no reason why a woman couldn't do it. The problem is encouraging enough woman into and staying in the sport to actually find the truly talented ones.

[George Costanza]

The only woman who is great would be Jacky Ick's daughter.

[pRy]

 

Not surprising these things had came out of his mouth. https://www.carkeys....ersies?76542rh 

 

His comment on women drivers - "If there was somebody that was capable, they wouldn't be taken seriously anyway, so they would never have a car that is capable of competing." 

 

Can't wait to see this be proven wrong and we see a mixed grid, Susie Wolff is an incredible addition to the sport.

 

As is quite often the case with Bernie what he says is viewed in a negative context but I think he was speaking fact here rather than attacking women. Formula One is a very limited sport where the window of opportunity to get a drive is tiny. Look at all of the drivers sat on the side lines because they've no drive. The Paul Di Resta's of the sport. Forced to go looking for drives in other series because theres no room in F1. 

 

So not only would a woman have to prove she's quick enough.. she would also have to get over the big hurdle of being a female in a sport that's been dominated by male drivers since it's inception. That's not easy. It would be like a woman breaking into professional Snooker. Or a woman wanting to play football along side the men. Or a woman wanting to play tennis against the men (I suspect Serena might give them a good game). It's not going to happen.

 

The best thing that could happen is a series for women.. which Bernie did suggest. But that was shot down by the few women who are interested in F1 as insulting. But that's how every other sport is. I'd rather have a small series featuring women drivers than no women in motorsport at all.

[loki0420]

By the way, is there actually any game where women and men compete against each other?

[johnmhinds]

I don't think creating a female only version of GP2 would increase the chances of any of them getting into F1, if anything it would make it even easier to ignore them because they'd be segregated away with no way to compare them to any male drivers.

[Henri Greuter]

To he honest, no offence intended to anyone posting here or the `subject` discussed but I think that `greedy` B E has caused bigger controversies than the subject discussed here. His influence in driving F1 out of countries with a real racing heritage to the benefit of questionable venues in the Middle East or his active particpation in finishing off Gp C in the late 80's and early 90s (even if that would have spelled the end of Le Mans) with the aim to boost more factory participation within F1 and eliminate serious rivals for the popularity os his cash-cow world wide.....

 

 

Henri

[Nathan]

Off the top of my head, when SLEC was put up for sale and the valuation became public, combined with the sale to EM.TV and Kirch Group.  That seems to have kicked up the most dust, drama and controversy within F1.

 

I always thought the political donation was a little over blown.

[Clatter]

I don't think creating a female only version of GP2 would increase the chances of any of them getting into F1, if anything it would make it even easier to ignore them because they'd be segregated away with no way to compare them to any male drivers.

A women only event might encourage more to at least try and that could increase the talent pool. Assuming the cars are the same, the lap times would give a damn good indication of how good they are compared to the men, and those that demonstrate a good turn speed get their chance against the men.

[chunder27]

Women and men compete equally in Equestrian events.

 

And they also do in all kinds of motorsport in reality, just not IN reality!

[427MkIV]

To he honest, no offence intended to anyone posting here or the `subject` discussed but I think that `greedy` B E has caused bigger controversies than the subject discussed here. His influence in driving F1 out of countries with a real racing heritage to the benefit of questionable venues in the Middle East or his active particpation in finishing off Gp C in the late 80's and early 90s (even if that would have spelled the end of Le Mans) with the aim to boost more factory participation within F1 and eliminate serious rivals for the popularity os his cash-cow world wide.....

 

 

Henri

 

And the lack of a rational, sustainable approach to F1 in the U.S. Maybe COTA will succeed, but Indianapolis was doomed, and places such as Dallas, Phoenix and Las Vegas were jokes. Detroit could've been OK if the circuit had been better. Long Beach could have been almost perfect but for the F1 $. And whatever role Bernie had, if any, in contributing to the inception of the IRL should go against him.

[LuckyStrike1]

By the way, is there actually any game where women and men compete against each other?

 

Chess. 

Various board games. 

Love.

Sex.

Equestrian.

Edited by LuckyStrike1, 31 January 2017 - 20:10.

[quickshift]

Low blow!

Wollf/Stoddart was pants because she was pants. I don't think having ovaries had anything to do with that.

but having ovaries is why people think she should be given more of a chance than others (without ovaries)

 

 

 

looking from an equestrian perspective one has to realise women have different aims in life 

when i was 10 i was competing against almost exclusively female competitors 

by the time i was 15 it was 50/50 by the time i was 30 90/10 to the men.

it had nothing to do with ability nothing to do with cash and everything to do with each persons personal ambitions

Many women do see the main goal of their life to be a wife and mother is that wrong of men to allow that if they choose?

or should we now say the 1% (just for example not based on knowledge or facts) of females (interested in racing) should get 50% of all the teams seats going purely on ovaries rather than a person wants to make it their main goal

and is the better driver of a car

 

Yes if a woman is better and wants to make it she should have the opportunity

but i bet some of the fastest women never wanted it

should men be punished because women choose not to race?

[ANF]

Women and men compete equally in Equestrian events.
 
And they also do in all kinds of motorsport in reality, just not IN reality!

Not sure what to make of this, but anyway:

https://en.wikipedia...lis_500_drivers

https://en.wikipedia...ational_jockeys

[Clatter]

but having ovaries is why people think she should be given more of a chance than others (without ovaries)

Which people? I've not seen anyone suggesting that.

[dweller23]

Oh I only now noticed that OP keeps creating threads with carkeys links in it. I guess sentence about Wolff was a nice way to get the discussion rolling.