149 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

From some recent research on these, there appears to have been a big explosion in the value of Lotus Cortina Mk 1's.

From what I can gather the road version was originally released at GPB 1,100. In Oz this would have ben approx. AUD 2,750 (plus hefty import duty).

I was reading a bit recently about David Weekes, an Aussie club racer, buying a second hand 2 year old road version in 1967 from Pat Hogan at Competition Cars for AUD 3,200. By comparison a new MGB was AUD 2,800 and a Morgan 4/4 for AUD 2,600.

A very nice road version was recently sold in Oz for AUD 75,000.

The price of racing prepared cars seem to have gone through the roof. Have a look at these three examples:

https://racecarsdire...1-lotus-cortina

https://racecarsdire...ld-lotus-cortin

https://racecarsdire...ina-mki-for-sal

The sale prices of these are GBP 135,000, GBP 125,000 and GBP 106,000 respectively. These are twin cam engine cars, not BDA's, BDG's etc.

In Oz, Jim McKeown's car was sold 5 years ago for AUD 85K, so may be up to those prices now.

Am I alone in thinking this is extraordinary.

[Ray Bell]

When it's all said and done, they're still only Cortinas...

There are some very nice ones around, though. The Michelmore car, subject of discussion here a couple of weeks ago, is totally period-prepared after a fairly hard life. But it was never a 'race' car, running only in Series Production. It did spend time, however, rallying.

The owner, Graham Mein, went to a lot of trouble to get things like the starter and generator from the right production dates to make it as original as he could.

And he's pretty capable, he's the man who pieced together the Geoghegan lightweight car so that it's now in showroom condition.

Nobody will be checking, of course, to see which cars have reproduction heads...

[Wirra]

...A very nice road version was recently sold in Oz for AUD 75,000...

...Am I alone in thinking this is extraordinary...

 

It seems the market is cooling somewhat of the 'elite vehicles' (XU1s, GTHOs etc) and is now turning to 'interesting' cars from pre-fuel crisis.

 

Datsun 240zs with no unique history, but matching numbers, are now selling with asking prices around $70kAUS,

[D-Type]

I suspect that in Britain, if a car is "Goodwood eligible" it will sell at a premium.  Witness the mini-explosion in the price of the Austin J40 pedal cars when they introduced a race for them.

[Lee Nicolle]

It seems the market is cooling somewhat of the 'elite vehicles' (XU1s, GTHOs etc) and is now turning to 'interesting' cars from pre-fuel crisis.

 

Datsun 240zs with no unique history, but matching numbers, are now selling with asking prices around $70kAUS,

And no doubt full of bog! I have owned several 260Zs and the last one 10 years ago I sold for about $2500. Not totally rusted out but had plenty!

Even then shorties were making 7-10k in half decent condition.

[Lee Nicolle]

I suspect that in Britain, if a car is "Goodwood eligible" it will sell at a premium.  Witness the mini-explosion in the price of the Austin J40 pedal cars when they introduced a race for them.

A30 race cars. Not A40s.

[Wirra]

He stated J40 pedal cars. Not A30 race cars,

 

 

[Lee Nicolle]

When it's all said and done, they're still only Cortinas...

There are some very nice ones around, though. The Michelmore car, subject of discussion here a couple of weeks ago, is totally period-prepared after a fairly hard life. But it was never a 'race' car, running only in Series Production. It did spend time, however, rallying.

The owner, Graham Mein, went to a lot of trouble to get things like the starter and generator from the right production dates to make it as original as he could.

And he's pretty capable, he's the man who pieced together the Geoghegan lightweight car so that it's now in showroom condition.

Nobody will be checking, of course, to see which cars have reproduction heads...

20 years ago there was a lot of Lotus Cortinas in GpN. Most built from parts I am sure. That is also the deal with many street ones as well.Along with fake Falcon Gts, 6 pack Chargers, Monaros, XU1s etc etc.

They are often ok as a road car providing you know [ and so many do not] that the car is a replica/ clone.

[arttidesco]

.
Am I alone in thinking this is extraordinary.

 

Not really that extraordinary at all after considering the returns from other areas of ones investment portfolio in recent years

[chunder27]

To carry on the title

 

Are insane.

 

But why not when people pay it, never quite sure Jim Clark drove looked at, sat in, watched, went near, passed on the motorway, parked near, so many.

[smeetsie]

Hi all.

I was the Group N eligibility scrutineer in SA. There were 3 or 4 Lotus Cortina "replicas" built in Adelaide for racing. Real cars were too valuable. Also a couple of 2 door GT's.

Unfortunately they were sometimes passed off as real ones at various times. It is the grandfather's axe story really. It had 2 new blades, 3 new handles....but it was an early 1800's genuine example. The remains of genuine cars were available in the UK if you searched hard enough.

Regards

Pete S.

[john aston]

As has been said , of the 3000 Mk 1 Lotus Cortinas made , only 12 ,000 now survive ....

[Lee Nicolle]

As has been said , of the 3000 Mk 1 Lotus Cortinas made , only 12 ,000 now survive ....

At least!!

The same with many collectable English Euro US or Aussie cars.

[Allen Brown]

I think you're comparing apples with oranges.  

 

Lotus Cortinas, as built in the 1960s by Lotus and Ford, are one thing; cars that can win at Goodwood in a race for FIA-approved "HTP Special" Silhouette class "Lotus Cortinas" are something else completely.  The former are "collectable", the latter are purely for racing at Goodwood and its satellite events,  The text of all three adverts makes clear that they are for cars built in the last few years, so you shouldn't be comparing these with the values of original cars.

[Ray Bell]

There probably isn't an original cylinder head between them, either...

But the one that surprised me was the mention of a 'lightweight wiring harness'.

[BRG]

Here are some offered for sale in the UK.  Prices range from £13k (perhaps a typo?) to £125k plus a Alan Mann car presumably POA

[superden]

Blue oval scene tax.

Like VW scene tax, but worse.

[TerryS]

I think you're comparing apples with oranges.  
 
Lotus Cortinas, as built in the 1960s by Lotus and Ford, are one thing; cars that can win at Goodwood in a race for FIA-approved "HTP Special" Silhouette class "Lotus Cortinas" are something else completely.  The former are "collectable", the latter are purely for racing at Goodwood and its satellite events,  The text of all three adverts makes clear that they are for cars built in the last few years, so you shouldn't be comparing these with the values of original cars.

The main driver of value is surely rarity.

What would the Mona Lisa be worth if there were lots of it?

As Ray says in post #2 they are still only Cortinas.

And as noted in post #16 there are still plenty of Lotus Cortinas about.

Let alone the heaps of just 2 door Cortinas.......

[chunder27]

ANother reason for prices is stupidity let's face it

 

Very few of these cars are ever worth what is paid for them in real terms, only what people are prepared to pay.

 

It's a rather silly industry, but a very profitable one.

 

But then you can say the same of housing, art, Star WArs men! lol

[gkennedy]

That "lightweight wiring harness" surprised me too. I don't know what it would cost to make a lightweight wiring harness, but I can't imagine it would be cheap. The weight of a complete wiring harness for a Cortina-sized car would be around 20-25 kgs. How much weight could be saved designing a lightweight one?  5kgs? Maybe 10? Fair enough, that's some weight saved, but the main body of a wiring harness runs along the floor of the car, and most of these cars need ballast to make minimum weight. So you save your 5-10kgs in your wiring harness, and then bolt lead on the floor to make minimum weight. Am I missing something here? Even if I am, is this what this category has come to?  

Edited by gkennedy, 01 February 2017 - 08:49.

[arttidesco]

There probably isn't an original cylinder head between them, either...

... bah humbug with originality, feast your eyes on these ...

But the one that surprised me was the mention of a 'lightweight wiring harness'.

Required so one can optimise the weight distribution with ballast don't you know

[Ray Bell]

I really doubt you could save five pounds with a wiring harness...

These are old cars, the only long wires are to the tail lights and fuel gauge, no electronics except for the tacho, I have no doubt that they had just two fuses.

Today's cars have heaps of wiring, electric windows, rear window demister, boot light, sound systems, they do have heavy looms.

And I said the head, Artti, not the rocker cover.

[RogerFrench]

Rocker cover? On a Twink?

[D-Type]

Re: wiring harness.  An aluminium harness would be lighter than a copper one.  But there are far simpler and less costly ways of saving weight.

[David Birchall]

An interesting comparison on values is surely with the Elan-same engine and gearbox, similar production numbers.  Interestingly there is a discussion on the Elannet forum discussing why Elans are not worth more.  I knew I shoulda kept my one previous owner Lotus Cortina...

[BRG]

Re: wiring harness.  An aluminium harness would be lighter than a copper one.  But there are far simpler and less costly ways of saving weight.

But if you have to replace the harness anyway - they do get a bit knackered after so many years - why not a lighter one, if you have money to burn.

[gkennedy]

Exactly. Why not? Buy a ballast weight set while you're at it.

(Twin cam rocker covers. )

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RogerFrench
Rocker cover? On a Twink?

My apologies, cam cover it is.

[Lee Nicolle]

I really doubt you could save five pounds with a wiring harness...

These are old cars, the only long wires are to the tail lights and fuel gauge, no electronics except for the tacho, I have no doubt that they had just two fuses.

Today's cars have heaps of wiring, electric windows, rear window demister, boot light, sound systems, they do have heavy looms.

And I said the head, Artti, not the rocker cover.

Simple loom yes, but a bit more than that. Tail, Brake, turn signal and reverse light [optional but wire there] plus fuel guage. At the front headlights, parklights, turn signals, engine loom, dash lights, heater [again optional] horn. Instument loom. About 5 fuses. 

Modern looms are far more complex but are made from thinner wire so I guess a lightweight loom is made from that with far less tape binding the loom. And maybe modern fuses not those dreadfull ceramic fuses on even 70s Cortinas

[TerryS]

An interesting comparison on values is surely with the Elan-same engine and gearbox, similar production numbers.  Interestingly there is a discussion on the Elannet forum discussing why Elans are not worth more.  I knew I shoulda kept my one previous owner Lotus Cortina...

David, when you look at current prices being asked for racing version of Lotus Elans they are not really all that far below the Lotus Cortinas.

Four current examples are:

https://racecarsdire...-k-racerally-ca

https://racecarsdire...1-1964-fia-spec

https://racecarsdire...tus-elan-s2-26r

https://racecarsdire...tus-elan-s2-gts

Their respective prices are EUR 97K, GBP 90K and the bottom two are GBP 85K.

It seems that with the Elan and Cortina to get top prices they must conform to FIA Appendix K and have an FIA Historic Technical Passport (HTP).

[bill p]

........It seems that with the Elan and Cortina to get top prices they must conform to FIA Appendix K and have an FIA Historic Technical Passport (HTP).

All cars need to have valid HTP Papers, etc. to achieve a "top price". From my experience anyway.......

Bill P

Edited by bill p, 02 February 2017 - 07:26.

[TerryS]

All cars need to have valid HTP Papers, etc. to achieve a "top price". From my experience anyway.......
Bill P

Isn't that what I said?

[GMACKIE]

I know which one I'd rather have !

[bill p]

Isn't that what I said?

Your post implies Elans and Lotus Cortinas only, my comment suggests all cars benefit.......

Edited by bill p, 02 February 2017 - 12:32.

[minime]

No GT500? I wonder if any still exist, I was fortunate enough to stand beside one at my mate's place one day and have no idea who owned it. A car yard owner at Woolooware (Sydney), the name Rodgers rings a bell, had a Lotus Cortina very early in the peace from memory.  

[David Birchall]

I am intrigued to know which one GMACKIE would have?

[David Birchall]

Terrys:  Thanks for that response and the info.  It still means that an Elan is worth less than a LC and yet shirley it is more car?

[GMACKIE]

No GT500? I wonder if any still exist, I was fortunate enough to stand beside one at my mate's place one day and have no idea who owned it. A car yard owner at Woolooware (Sydney), the name Rodgers rings a bell, had a Lotus Cortina very early in the peace from memory.  

Arthur Rogers. His son, Terry, was regularly seen driving a 'flash' car. He had a Studebaker Golden Hawk for a while.

 

More famous than Terry, however, was his wife Barbie Rogers.

[GMACKIE]

I am intrigued to know which one GMACKIE would have?

Elan of course...

[TerryS]

Arthur Rogers. His son, Terry, was regularly seen driving a 'flash' car. He had a Studebaker Golden Hawk for a while.
 
More famous than Terry, however, was his wife Barbie Rogers.

I recall Terry Rogers. His most famous moment in racing was when he cut across the path of David MacKay in McKay's last race in a single seater, causing McKay to spear off the track.

Rogers had been briefly racing a Lotus Super 7, then bought a Lotus 20B with 1.5L pushrod.

In the Hordern Trophy race at Warwick Farm in December 1963, David McKay was having his last race in his Brabham Climax BT4 before retiring. Matich and Stillwell had taken each other out while leading, so McKay inherited second. He came up fast to lap Rogers on the inside with blue flags waving madly. Rogers seemed oblivious to his coming and pulled across on him. The ensuing tangle sent McKay of the track with a broken wishbone.

Rogers was a bit of a "lair" and lived accordingly. He didn't last long in racing.

Their business was called Southern Cross Car Sales, but despite impressive name was just a vacant block full of cars next to their house on the Kingsway between Woolooware and Caringbah. There were no buildings at all on the block. I went past it regularly living at Cronulla at the time, and it seemed very low key.

[Ian G]

No GT500? I wonder if any still exist,

 

There was a guy on Ebay Oz. in the early 2000 fabricating mock up parts,Brake ducts,fuel fillers etc. for them so like the LC it would be extreme buyer beware. 

[Ray Bell]

Terry, you forgot to mention that David McKay demolished a hession-covered toilet on the way through...

Ian, a friend of mine owns a genuine GT500 which he's had since it was about two years old. About 35 years ago he also rebuilt a Lotus Cortina for a friend and while he was at it he fabricated everything needed to convert a regular 2-door Cortina body to a Lotus Cortina. He has a 'twink' there for it too, but he seems to have run out of steam.

[TerryS]

Terry, you forgot to mention that David McKay demolished a hession-covered toilet on the way through...

Ray, McKay's demolition of the wood and hessian outhouse was the year before, 1962 not 1963.

He was in the Cooper Climax and challenging Stillwell for the lead of the 1962 Hordern Trophy.

The track was damp, and at three quarter distance McKay was challenging Stillwell very closely for the lead, when going into Polo Corner Stillwell braked early.

McKay veered left to avoid but got onto the wet grass and from there could not control it.

He ran into the outhouse and the structure collapsed around his head and wrapped around the Cooper.

Ray you were lucky you weren't in the outhouse at the time!!

The outhouse became known as the "House of David" after that. That was the well known name of a group that ran a car dealer on Mona Vale and set themselves up as a religion as a tax dodge.

[Ray Bell]

Of course it was the previous year, I don't know what I was thinking...

That was at Polo, they never rebuilt the outhouse to my knowledge.

The 1963 incident was at Creek, was it not?

[TerryS]

Of course it was the previous year, I don't know what I was thinking...

That was at Polo, they never rebuilt the outhouse to my knowledge.

The 1963 incident was at Creek, was it not?

Yes Ray I recall it was at Creek Corner, right in front of us.
It brought up a cheer from our group because we believed Rogers was not up to this class of racing.(see post #40)

Sorry for delay in getting back but I got caught up.

[bill p]

TerryS

You may have a look at the estimates for a couple of Lotus Cortinas in the Silverstone Auctions sale at the upcoming Race Retro show

Prices more realistic....

Bill P

[minime]

Their business was called Southern Cross Car Sales, but despite impressive name was just a vacant block full of cars next to their house on the Kingsway between Woolooware and Caringbah. There were no buildings at all on the block. I went past it regularly living at Cronulla at the time, and it seemed very low key.

 

I lived at Taren Point and was always at Cronulla. You could start a forum on those days at Cronulla, the drags at Kurnell etc, the cops closing down the main street and defecting everything in sight when they got bored.  

[TerryS]

I lived at Taren Point and was always at Cronulla. You could start a forum on those days at Cronulla, the drags at Kurnell etc, the cops closing down the main street and defecting everything in sight when they got bored.

Thanks for the thought mimime, but I don't think we want to document the sins of our youth.

[TerryS]

TerryS

You may have a look at the estimates for a couple of Lotus Cortinas in the Silverstone Auctions sale at the upcoming Race Retro show

Prices more realistic....

Bill P

Yes Bill, have had a look at that and interesting. Two racing Lotus Cortinas included and my comments are:

Lot 106 estimate GBP 40K - 50K

https://www.silverst...--htp---ct8---f

Estimate seems low as has FIA HTP, and claimed GBP 90K spent on it

And already in Alan Mann colours.

Lot 132 estimate GBP 35K - 40K

https://www.silverst...m/lotus-cortina

Noted has not raced for 10 years, does NOT have FIA HTP, and will need "recommissioning"

on that basis the estimate for Lot 106 seems much better value.

On that site the one that really surprised me was lot 104 1956 Austin A30

Estimate GBP 33K - 38K.

https://www.silverst...austin-a30-9415

I guess here in OZ we don't "appreciate" the A30.

Will be interesting to see final sale prices.

Edited by TerryS, 05 February 2017 - 22:51.

[David Birchall]

"Will be interesting to see final sale prices."

I certainly will second that!

Edited by David Birchall, 06 February 2017 - 03:10.