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Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:11
I could've posted the article in powerunit thread but I think it deserves it's own thread.
"Niki Lauda recently confessed to me that Mercedes was working on it since 2007," Montezemolo told the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.
Full article: http://en.f1i.com/ne...ra-mistake.html
Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 01 February 2017 - 18:14.
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Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:24
Oh, ok. So much for the "They just did a better job and everyone else just screwed the pooch" mantra.
Don't get me wrong. They did a great job ... obviously. But the best thing they did to ensure their success was to do their part in getting the formula changed when they knew they already had a huge lead on the tech.
Edited by AustinF1, 01 February 2017 - 18:29.
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Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:35
To be honest I don't care about the cause of the performance gap among powerunits but seriously that kind of head start is just unbelievable.
Rest in peace HRT, Caterham and MarussiaManor 
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:38
It strikes me as typical disingenuous Montezemolo bollocks.
The hybrid Toyota prius was launched in 1997, a lot of companies seeing how popular it was started working on similar technologies. All engine manufacturers started work on similar units - Merc released their ElectricBlue hybrid in 2009, so they had been working on hybrid ideas for ages.
Ferrari just didn't do a very good job, and as always are trying to blame anyone except themselves.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:39
And of course no other team in the history of formula one has done that... 🙈Oh, ok. So much for the "They just did a better job and everyone else just screwed the pooch" mantra.
Don't get me wrong. They did a great job ... obviously. But the best thing they did to ensure their success was to do their part in getting the formula changed when they knew they already had a huge lead on the tech.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:41
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Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:42
Edited by Marklar, 01 February 2017 - 18:43.
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Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:43
they started hiring smart people, spending serious dollars, in 2012..
Lauda's F O S, stirring people up...
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:44
Oh, ok. So much for the "They just did a better job and everyone else just screwed the pooch" mantra.
Don't get me wrong. They did a great job ... obviously. But the best thing they did to ensure their success was to do their part in getting the formula changed when they knew they already had a huge lead on the tech.
I wonder what Renault were thinking when they demanded hybrid powerunits as well as Mercedes. Kudos to Ferrari despite being against hybrid powerunits.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 18:46
So they've started working on the 2024 car??? 
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 20:28
So they've started working on the 2024 car???
Well, they (and probably all of the PU manufacturers) will, or should be, thinking about what might be in the next formula and working on ideas and designs right now. Why wait if you have the resources to experiment?
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:08
I could've posted the article in powerunit thread but I think it deserves it's own thread.
Full article: http://en.f1i.com/ne...ra-mistake.html
Typical Ferrari hypocrisy.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:21
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Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:23
Remind me when was the engine regs finalised ? All they were doing was probably an advanced research team toying with some concepts related to hybrid tech. Nothing special given the introduction of Kers in 2009. FErrari was of course doing the same and LDM should have kept it quiet to avoid ridiculing himself.
Edited by shonguiz, 02 February 2017 - 00:25.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:35
Remind me when was the engine regs finalised ? All they were doing was probably an advance research team toying with some concepts related to hybrid tech. Nothing special given the introduction of Kers in 2007. FErrari was of course doing the same and LDM should have kept it quiet to avoid ridiculing himself.
It was finalised in summer 2011 (and on the same time postponed from 2013 to 2014). Obviously it was planned long before that of course
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:38
Sure. I'll buy it.
Edited by Neno, 01 February 2017 - 22:39.
Member
Posted 01 February 2017 - 22:43
Not a direct Lauda quote.
It was Ferrari who demanded the V6 over a 4cyl ICE when finalising the engine regs.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 00:17
I'll buy that research was done and MB knew how to produce the PU if not the exact parameters of cylinder layout. If Toyota released the Prius in 1997 when do you think they started thinking about it, 1990? Lead times and long term thinking over decades are a normal thing for car makers. Bosch has admitted they have a fully autonomous car ready to go but they want to drip feed the technology so the peasants don't get frightened of the idea. Bosch are talking of 2025 for the first car of this type.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 00:38
I think the fact that the new engines came with a "do not open until next season" sticker proves that all manufacturers thought they themselves had the upper hand. It was an idiotic step, the tokens, the freeze, and only someone certain it's to their advantage would accept it. Ferrari and Renault got a nasty surprise.
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Posted 02 February 2017 - 00:41
Does this include KERS?
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 02:12
Remind me when was the engine regs finalised ? All they were doing was probably an advanced research team toying with some concepts related to hybrid tech. Nothing special given the introduction of Kers in 2009. FErrari was of course doing the same and LDM should have kept it quiet to avoid ridiculing himself.
The most ridiculous thing is that probably Ferrari didn't even explore other technologies. Their own brand hybrids only came after the F1 Hybrid formula. I would argue that they even were inexperienced with modern Turbos.
They took pride on producing some of the most fabulous normally aspirated engines and just that. No forward thinking about new, better technologies.
Ferrari got truly caught with their pants down... for whatever reason, but I'm thinking either overconfidence or plain incompetence.
I'm not suprised Mercedes would have started working on Hybrid F1 PU's so early, though. That's what every engine maker should do, think forwards.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:41
they started hiring smart people, spending serious dollars, in 2012..
Lauda's F O S, stirring people up...
2011 (For Brixworth anyway).
It was finalised in summer 2011 (and on the same time postponed from 2013 to 2014). Obviously it was planned long before that of course
I remember Bernie moaning that Mercedes got a head start due to helping shape the rules in it's infancy with the FIA so maybe that's what Niki was talking about with LDM. Can't see it being earlier than 2009 though even if there's any truth in either rumour.
More likely Niki was talking about Mercedes F1 hybrid research in general which of course could easily have been in 2007 with the work with Zytec and McLaren on KERS(Which everyone elsewhere called hybrid) and LDM is just either talking rubbish or didn't think he was referring to KERS but the new engines in particular so is a genuine mistake.
Bit of a random thing to just spout out of nowhere at this point so there must have been something said between them. My money's on Hybrid research in general with Zytec and McLaren.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 04:22
I remember Bernie moaning that Mercedes got a head start due to helping shape the rules in it's infancy with the FIA so maybe that's what Niki was talking about with LDM. Can't see it being earlier than 2009 though even if there's any truth in either rumour.
They were all at the table deciding on the future regs including Ferrari. I believe Mario Thiessen of BMW was the real architect behind the current power unit.
Edited by senna da silva, 02 February 2017 - 04:23.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:58
They were all at the table deciding on the future regs including Ferrari. I believe Mario Thiessen of BMW was the real architect behind the current power unit.
I wasn't supporting Bernie's version, just pointing it out in the context of discussing when the rules were formed and pondering if it was early enough to be what Niki was talking about if either were true.
I don't think it fits anyway.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:19
This. Most engine manufacturers were working on the tech that long. Ferrari probably started later because their target audience didn't care much about hybrid tech. They make performance exotics.It strikes me as typical disingenuous Montezemolo bollocks.
The hybrid Toyota prius was launched in 1997, a lot of companies seeing how popular it was started working on similar technologies. All engine manufacturers started work on similar units - Merc released their ElectricBlue hybrid in 2009, so they had been working on hybrid ideas for ages.
Ferrari just didn't do a very good job, and as always are trying to blame anyone except themselves.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 07:41
I wouldn't be surprised if in 1-2 years Ferrari and McLaren seek a rule change to 'Slowest car wins'
They've been working on that for years too.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:41
A question to Montezemolo would then be: "So why weren't you?"
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:59
Turrini wrote that until the first race of 2014 Ferrari (or Domenicali) were convinced that fuel consumption was the key in this formula and expected that there would be a vast amount of cars running out of fuel during races.
Well, Merc calculated differently and result was seen...
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:03
Who is Montezemolo ?
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:14
Turrini wrote that until the first race of 2014 Ferrari (or Domenicali) were convinced that fuel consumption was the key in this formula and expected that there would be a vast amount of cars running out of fuel during races.
Well, Merc calculated differently and result was seen...
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:54
There was some talk in either 2008 or 2009 about Mercedes engine budget. This was when they supplied McLaren as their factory team before they went all in and bought Brawn. I think the context was how much money McLaren (and Mercedes) were spending with very limited results.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 12:31
There was some talk in either 2008 or 2009 about Mercedes engine budget. This was when they supplied McLaren as their factory team before they went all in and bought Brawn. I think the context was how much money McLaren (and Mercedes) were spending with very limited results.
Hisdtorical precedent: up til halfway 1985 Honda was reported to have invested up to 500 million (= 500.000.000) Dollar on their torbocharged engines with up till that moment lettle to show resultswise. Some people reacted how much Honda had wasted, others proclaimed that with having spend so much money that by now they had to know a lot more what didn't work and why and eventually had to find the right direction.....
Have a look on the list of GP winners since the last for races of 1985 up til the end of the first turbo era.....
Henri
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 13:23
It strikes me as typical disingenuous Montezemolo bollocks.
The hybrid Toyota prius was launched in 1997, a lot of companies seeing how popular it was started working on similar technologies. All engine manufacturers started work on similar units - Merc released their ElectricBlue hybrid in 2009, so they had been working on hybrid ideas for ages.
Ferrari just didn't do a very good job, and as always are trying to blame anyone except themselves.
That car was hardly sold around until tax changes for business lease changed and they were suddenly a lot cheaper for employees with a corporate car. When the rules changed again sales plummeted. I hardly know anyone voluntarily driving a Prius.
The most ridiculous thing is that probably Ferrari didn't even explore other technologies. Their own brand hybrids only came after the F1 Hybrid formula. I would argue that they even were inexperienced with modern Turbos.
They took pride on producing some of the most fabulous normally aspirated engines and just that. No forward thinking about new, better technologies.
Ferrari got truly caught with their pants down... for whatever reason, but I'm thinking either overconfidence or plain incompetence.
I'm not suprised Mercedes would have started working on Hybrid F1 PU's so early, though. That's what every engine maker should do, think forwards.
Ferrari USP is sound and feel of their sports cars. Not like Mercedes with everything from trucks to the A class to big limo's and sportscars.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 14:27
That car was hardly sold around until tax changes for business lease changed and they were suddenly a lot cheaper for employees with a corporate car. When the rules changed again sales plummeted. I hardly know anyone voluntarily driving a Prius.
Ferrari USP is sound and feel of their sports cars. Not like Mercedes with everything from trucks to the A class to big limo's and sportscars.
The sales in the UK do not reflect what happened in other markets notably the US. The UK is not the centre of the universe when it comes to car sales so what happens there is not what happens elsewhere.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 17:49
That car was hardly sold around until tax changes for business lease changed and they were suddenly a lot cheaper for employees with a corporate car. When the rules changed again sales plummeted. I hardly know anyone voluntarily driving a Prius.
Ferrari USP is sound and feel of their sports cars. Not like Mercedes with everything from trucks to the A class to big limo's and sportscars.
The UK accounts for about 2% of global auto sales.
Fiat are a far larger auto maker than Daimler, this poor Ferrari act is bullcrap.
Member
Posted 02 February 2017 - 18:06
If it is true: not a scandal.
If it is not true: political moaning.
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Posted 03 February 2017 - 08:24
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Posted 03 February 2017 - 10:46
What Lauda said is very close to the mark, back in 2012 when I was involved, we were looking at the 'World Engine' which was supposed to be a base for F1 WRC , WEC and WTCC... at that point , we weren't even in the pre concept stage and HPE had running prototypes.
I went for a job at HPE in 2009 and its main focus was the 'new engine' .. if they wanted people in checking bits then, the design was already well advanced, and prototypes running.
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