72 replies to this topic

[FLB]

Americans do not follow sports in other countries, never have and never will. There is a large part of the US that does not have any interest in NASCAR as well due to it being very regional in its operations. All motor sport is on a downward spiral F1 and NASCAR are just the two that stand out due to their size and visibility.

I've always been amazed that the 500cc Motorcycle World Championship wasn't bigger in the States in the late 1980s-early 1990s than it was. Most of the stars were Americans (Lawson, Spencer, Schwantz, Roberts, Rainey). By all accounts, the racing was superb and the American riders were dominant (Doohan and Gardner excepted, of course).

 

To me, that shows that having an American driver or an American team in F1 wouldn't (or doesn't) move the needle al all.

Edited by FLB, 13 February 2017 - 01:19.

[savvy2210]

I dont think you can say NASCAR is in a downward spiral that's all.  

 

It matters not if I personally like it or not, you canot argue with its ability to keep up there.

 

Since when have companies like Emirates, Rolex, UBS been consumer brands like Tide, Home Depot, 5 hour energy and Lowes!!  We have a few in F1 like Martini, Red Bull and the like, but most are fairly upmarket or engineering based like oil companies, tech and IT, different business model I guess. A few are common like Vodafone, Santander, but theya re not main sponsors now. Think of Boss, does it makes you thnk of blokes in pickups?  

 

f1 seeks out the richer client, NASCAR does that to a lesser extent while feeding the blue collar, surely you can see that?  Doesnt really make them any better or worse, just a different marketing aim?

F1 sponsors put their brand on both team cars, that's the rules. NASCAR puts a sponsor on individual cars within a team, the advertising aimed at the North American market. F1 is aiming for world exposure.

[minime]

I repeat what I said, all motor sport is on a downward spiral, has been for some year and, NASCAR is no exception. Look at the trend of crowd and TV viewer numbers of all motor sport, if the decrease that is occurring does not mean the sport is suffering then you are right and there is no problem.

[minime]

I've always been amazed that the 500cc Motorcycle World Championship wasn't bigger in the States in the late 1980s-early 1990s than it was. Most of the stars were Americans (Lawson, Spencer, Schwantz, Roberts, Rainey). By all accounts, the racing was superb and the American riders were dominant (Doohan and Gardner excepted, of course).

 

To me, that shows that having an American driver or an American team in F1 wouldn't (or doesn't) move the needle al all.

 

It was awesome racing, about the best of any racing cars or bikes that I have seen. Every one of those guys was super competitive and never took a backward step from anyone and the bikes were absolute brutes to ride.   

[chunder27]

Lawson, Schwantz and Rainey were more famous in Germany or theUK then they were in America.

 

it says some odd things about Americans and the way they do not follow sport outside their country, but they know little else and have been brought up that way so you cannot blame them. Perhaps a level of indoctrination by the media!!

 

Those men were perhaps the bravest and most fearless sports racers I have ever seen and are heroes in my book.

 

I think you are right about the downward spiral of interest in motorsport obviously, but I think NASCAR does manage the situation quite well and are doing better than most. Including F1

[Rinehart]

Regarding Clarksons comment on attracting the crowds, its interesting to factor the cost of the cheapest ticket onto the equation...

 

British GP - £159 (General Admission)

Daytona 500 - £75 (Reserved Seat)

Indy 500 - £30 (GA)

Le Mans - £70 (GA for the week)

WRC Rally Wales - £20 for all stage 1 day 

 

So, Silvertone gets 150,000 in on race day, despite being more than double the cost of Daytona, which gets close to double the attendance...

[chunder27]

As I have been saying for years on here, is it any wonder F1 races change so much when so many people seem oblivious to the fact they are being utterly ripped off!!

 

You cannot blame them whatsoever.

[markelov74]

As I have been saying for years on here, is it any wonder F1 races change so much when so many people seem oblivious to the fact they are being utterly ripped off!!

 

You cannot blame them whatsoever.

 

Nobody is ripped off, going to F1 races is one of the best days of my life.

[chunder27]

In your opinion  fair play to you.

 

A lot of people I know would love to go too I would too, but consider it very, very over-priced. But in truth in comparison to other grandee sports events it is probably similar. Same price as a good Lords Test Match ticket though you can get cheaper, good FA Cup seat, think England rugby games are a fair bit cheaper, and Open Golf tickets are very cheap in comparison.

 

So why change anything to appeal to more people when enough think it's fine? 

 

Meaning.... Nothing will change.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I repeat what I said, all motor sport is on a downward spiral, has been for some year and, NASCAR is no exception. Look at the trend of crowd and TV viewer numbers of all motor sport, if the decrease that is occurring does not mean the sport is suffering then you are right and there is no problem.

I agree that all motorsports is on a downward trajectory.  NASCAR, however, reacted to that in ways that just vastly exacerbated its troubles, that was my point.  There is a lot of discontent among its traditional fans.  Unfortunately, the sport's leadership is absolute monarchy, and the current absolute monarch is relatively young and absolutely incompetent.

[chipmcdonald]

Quite simply: NASCAR tickets start out around $50 and go to about $150. You get to roam around where you want. No places roped off with people eating cheese and drinking wine behind them, oblivious, blocking the best sight lines to the track. Loud race cars that are unpleasant to those who are dilettantes. A race within driving distance of every major population center in the U.S. Anything else is a 1%er delusional experiment in throwing money around.

[garoidb]

Rather rich Clarkson saying

 

"I had some time for Bernie in the end actually," said Clarkson. "But it's probably a good thing that he's gone and that's it's now going to be run as a show and not as just some tool for making already very rich men a little bit richer."

 

Rather rich Clarkson says a lot of things, but your point is taken.

[Nathan]

I think you are right about the downward spiral of interest in motorsport obviously, but I think NASCAR does manage the situation quite well and are doing better than most. Including F1

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but as a long time follower of NASCAR I find it becoming more and more contrived, and I wonder if they are doing better by simply appealing to the lowest common denominator..

 

I wonder how you compare the live experience of a football, rugby, or golf match to attending an F1 race day.  I assume you are valuing things solely on the quality of the competition?

Edited by Nathan, 13 February 2017 - 19:51.

[BullHead]

I don't like the word show myself.... It detracts from sport to me...

[AustinF1]

Lawson, Schwantz and Rainey were more famous in Germany or theUK then they were in America.

 

it says some odd things about Americans and the way they do not follow sport outside their country, but they know little else and have been brought up that way so you cannot blame them. Perhaps a level of indoctrination by the media!!

 

Those men were perhaps the bravest and most fearless sports racers I have ever seen and are heroes in my book.

 

I think you are right about the downward spiral of interest in motorsport obviously, but I think NASCAR does manage the situation quite well and are doing better than most. Including F1

Well, I think that angle is a little overblown. I mean, in those days we didn't even have viewing access to all the major American series or races or the vast majority of American sports that aren't the big three. TV coverage of sports in those days was a tiny fraction of what it is now, and the internet was in its infancy. I'm guessing that back in those days, Brits, Euros, and other folks all over the world weren't nearly as likely to be watching American or other international sports as they are now. Now we have the internet and lots of cable sports channels to fill with content, so we have lots of football (yours, not American), lots of international racing series, MotoGP, etc, and tons of other international sports we couldn't see in the Schwantz/Rainey days. 

 

The sports viewing menu now is absolutely staggering, with all that stuff readily available on various media. Most sports fans here these days closely follow at least a handful of international sports that were pretty difficult or even impossible to follow before.

 

If #34 was doing now in MotoGP  what he did back in the day, you bet your ass he'd be a huge star here. 

Edited by AustinF1, 13 February 2017 - 22:51.

[Ian G]

Regarding Clarksons comment on attracting the crowds, its interesting to factor the cost of the cheapest ticket onto the equation...

 

British GP - £159 (General Admission)

Daytona 500 - £75 (Reserved Seat)

Indy 500 - £30 (GA)

Le Mans - £70 (GA for the week)

WRC Rally Wales - £20 for all stage 1 day 

 

So, Silvertone gets 150,000 in on race day, despite being more than double the cost of Daytona, which gets close to double the attendance...

 

Not sure about the UK but in the USA the Middle Classes,esp. the lower Middle Classes,have had their disposable Income eroded away Decade after Decade.Its only in recent years that American Economists are starting to realise the impact this is having on a Consumer Economy.

[PlayboyRacer]

I repeat what I said, all motor sport is on a downward spiral, has been for some year and, NASCAR is no exception. Look at the trend of crowd and TV viewer numbers of all motor sport, if the decrease that is occurring does not mean the sport is suffering then you are right and there is no problem.

This

[chunder27]

In terms of value I look at the overall experience.

 

What it's like to get there, what is there for me, can i sit down, what is parking like, is it miles away. Is there much to see? 

 

Things like atmosphere are a given in certain sporting events like a Wimbledon match with a Brit playing, or a big seed. A decent level England cricket match, a rugby union game of a high level. F1 offers more in some regards as you get more differing events on the same track or pitch. Sadly they contain identical cars and sounds, which removes the impact, but the racing os often much better.

 

And if you don't know much about it, you might look for a Brit to cheer like you would at a big athletics event or tennis etc.

 

But where f1 lacks is the whole package, you can't often see every thing as it happens, you cant access the drivers easily (you cant in a lot of sports though)  you cant access the pits to see anything (unless you are minted). And as we ahve seen it the most expensve of all of these events at the basic level.

[minime]

Maybe I'm wrong, but as a long time follower of NASCAR I find it becoming more and more contrived, and I wonder if they are doing better by simply appealing to the lowest common denominator..

 

I wonder how you compare the live experience of a football, rugby, or golf match to attending an F1 race day.  I assume you are valuing things solely on the quality of the competition?

 

I think that the changes that occur in any sport, but let's talk about NASCAR, when the viewer and spectator numbers drop off are on the whole unnecessary and can be damaging. The excitement of the sport/racing is just the same but the interest wanes as the years go by and those that have continued to have an interest are alienated by the knee jerk changes that occur and so the spiral gets tighter and faster and the older fans begin to leave as well. It is all driven by self interest and greed by the promoters but all they are doing is trying to protect themselves and without realising it they are ensuring that spiral continues. NASCAR and F1 are prime examples of this behaviour and  Cricket is another I can think of. The promoters forget that if they look after the fan then the sport will grow but to that they have to have a method of attracting new fans to replace those who lose interest. In effect there is no answer and it is why sports lose their popularity and people move on to other things and motor sport is in the middle of an unavoidable decline which will continue no matter what is done. In fact it is dying from the roots up, less and less active participants are taking up the sport which is the key indicator of what is going on. How many here have been active racers? not many I suspect.  

[chunder27]

That is one of the things I criticise the MSA in this country most for on forums and have written to them once or twice. (no replies obviously). Other than help out marshalling, you can do your bit!  Lol

 

IN other nations there seems to be a more direct approach and joined up thinking to getting people racing.

 

Over here all they give a damn about is making money and finding new ways to make it, and saying you can marshal or officiate, there is very little try before you buy or encouraging kids and families to get started in racing. Fun days that show everything off, pack the families in, let them sit in a rally car and get driven round, let Mum get driven round the track, let oldest lad have a go in a simulator and then follow it up with some advice on what he could do, let people try things. It's all about money and self interest.

 

It's not hard to see they could do a better job, but they are very restricted in the UK, the Health and safety world has taken over. Even in places like Scandinavia and Eastern Europe you can rally in almost road cars, for very little money, you can rallycross, hillclimb and folk race in the same car, there are fewer choices so there is more joined up thinking.

 

Even in the US, short and long ovals all lead to once place, NASCAR and its subsidiaries.  There is not that joined up thinking over here, F1 is out of reach without money for anyone now and you have numerous series off the MSA radar that get big crowds, attract lots of drivers and with more thought would be great ways for kids and families to start racing. Lots of series pulling in their way, not a joined up way.

 

It is just "karting", if you are a kid. That's it. Or officiating, or less interesting sports like trials or the like that are not going to capture most peoples imaginations, even though they are fun no doubt!

 

Utterly unfit for purpose in my opinion the MSA and they should be ashamed of themselves. 

[AlexLangheck]

Well Chunder, the MSA are looking for a new Chairman.......

[chunder27]

I do not have the contacts, business experience, or gladragging skills to do such a job sadly. I am about as far away from being to apply for a job like that as it is possible to be.

 

But if I could do it, I would try and make some fairly drastic changes.

Sadly, I would guess there are many reasons why changes cannot b made, and much of them not the fault of governing bodies. Much as I take the mick, their job in this country is a thankless task as the motorsport is a public enemy to most.

[Atreiu]

Making rich people richer sounds exactly like what Liberty aims at, which I don't mind as long as they maintain racing at the heart of it. Cut the gimmicks, make the cars exciting instead of confusing and make it so drivers have to really race their socks off.

I also think Bernie only cared about making one man richer. Anything else was a side effect.

How many promoters, team owners and members lost fortunes under his leadership? Fools.

Edited by Atreiu, 14 February 2017 - 16:16.