1677 replies to this topic

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

anyone can provide dates for the Caversham circuit  ? when was the triangle used ? 1946 up to 1958-9  how about the D circuit 1953 to 1968 ?

 

any description or drawing of the T track

 

thanks for any information

[Ray Bell]

I think you'll have trouble with the 'T' circuit...

 

Terry made no attempt in either Around the Houses or Fast Tracks to map that while the 'D' and 'triangle' were mapped in both. His comment in Fast Tracks was that 'History has not preserved the details of this ad-hoc layout...'

 

April 1946 was the first race meeting and that was on the 'D' circuit, the final meeting was also and that was late in 1968.

 

Terry doesn't make it clear whether or not the 'Triangle' was used other than for the 6-hour races in 1955, '56 and '57. I will give him a call when he's likely to be awake and ask. I rather suspect that it was used at other times to give drivers some variety, this would particularly be the case in 1955 as most of the 'town' circuits weren't available in the wake of the Le Mans disaster.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Ray Bell, 14 August 2024 - 23:23.

[ozpata]

thank you Ray 

 

so the D 1946 to 68

the triangle from what I could find was probably used up to late 50s, so I assume 58 or 59 but don't know when they first started, I suspect that since the agreement with the base was official in 53, maybe was then when they started using it?

 

I have Terry's book but it is not clear and every post or little something I was able to find is mostly about the D, the T circuit it seems is was only used very few times and I suspect that maybe it wasn't exactly the same each one of those.

 

thanks again

[Ray Bell]

Forgive me, Oscar...

 

I put 'T' but meant 'Triangle' there for the 6-hour races of 1955 to 1957. Now corrected.

[ozpata]

no problem Ray ,

 

so D circuit is 1946 to 68 and the Triangle 1955 to 57 

[Ray Bell]

I'm not sure, Oscar, and I neglected to get in touch with Terry today...

 

I will definitely do so tomorrow. I would not be at all surprised to find the triangle was used a little more broadly than just '55 to '57.

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

Edited by ozpata, 30 August 2024 - 13:56.

[ozpata]

[Tim Murray]

Re St Helier: Jersey (like the other Channel Islands, the Isle of Man etc) is not part of the UK but a Crown Dependency with its own flag etc. We discussed this in this thread a few years ago when the Douglas circuit maps first appeared, starting here.

It’s only because Jersey and the Isle of Man are not part of the UK that motor racing on public roads was allowed to happen there.

[ozpata]

 

sorry for that

[Tim Murray]

sorry for that

No need to be sorry, Oscar. The official status of the Channel Islands is very confusing, even for someone like me who grew up there.

[ozpata]

unfortunately at this moment can't get a good altitude graph to represent the circuit, but I hope that I can fix that soon, the area has change completely with lots of construction and digging around

Edited by ozpata, 12 September 2024 - 13:12.

[ozpata]

[Ray Bell]

Long, long straights in the Edwardian idiom...

 

Used just once and we're not sure what it achieved.

 

Hosted the 1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix, with some competitors arriving by virtue of having competed in a multi-start Interstate car trial, also a South Australian Centenary event. And as time wore on, this race, held in the dying days of 1936, became recognised as the 1937 Australian Grand Prix. Mind you, there was no 1936 Australian Grand Prix, just why this happened is a mystery to me.

 

But the circuit still exists, with the Western leg having been replaced by a more modern road, with the original road (or most of it) still visible alongside.

[LittleChris]

At the top of the old western leg just before the roundabout there's an information centre featuring a painting of a racing car ( possibly a Bugatti)

[Ray Bell]

I can't find that, Chris...

 

I assume you mean on Street View?

[LittleChris]

That's right Ray. There's also a small rock at the front of the bay with a commemorative plaque concerning the race

Edited by LittleChris, 20 September 2024 - 07:19.

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[Myrvold]

I just love to come here and see whatever amazing stuff that has been created since my last thread-visit! 

[ozpata]

[Ray Bell]

Once again I have to thank you profusely, Oscar...

 

Yesterday I drove a lap of Lowell, which I would never had been able, or even wanting, to do without you magnificent work.

 

 

This one is just so fantastic it eclipses everything I've ever seen before, though you do have to put things in perspective. In all likelihood it was all gravel and probably narrower in 1908,

 

Of course, to find it I needed to know the street names, the local library soon gave me these, and to my surprise there were just a few. Along the river is Pawtucket Drive, the twisty stuff of the return leg begins with Sherburne Avenue, this runs into Varnum Avenue, with the Eastern end linked to Pawtucket Drive by Dunbar Avenue. It can be driven in its entirety.

 

I might well start a thread about it some time, it deserves it. Should it ever have reached the stage of being all-sealed and of decent width it would have been a magnet for drivers from all around the world.

 

Thanks again, Oscar, and, by extension, thanks also to Don Capps.
 

[ozpata]

thank you Ray,

I am glad that the map was at the very least somewhat useful 

[DCapps]

Oscar, that is a very good portrayal of the track. As Ray points out, it is actually still there in its basic form, much as it was then. I did something similar to what Ray did when I was there for a meeting, took a tour of the track. I was not prepared for it to be almost exactly how it was when used for the races. Yet, with surprisingly few changes, it seemed to match quite well with the original layouts I had of the course. Thanks, Ray, for reminding me of that experience. I did not even want to imagine what it must have been like driving, at speed, one of the racing machines of the day. I was fortunate in that one of the others attending the meeting was curious about the track -- never even heard of there being a race there, in fact -- wanted to ride along. He was really amazed by the whole thing and told me that he later drove it on his own, his wife doing the navigating.

[ozpata]

[Barry Boor]

Oscar, I don’t think that you have produced a track map of the Castelfusano circuit, near Rome, but I wonder if you have any information about the circuit, mainly, where was the start and finish point?

 

Maybe someone else knows the answer?

[ozpata]

hope this helps a bit, I am not sure of the exact location of the starting line but from what I have it seems it was somewhere around there

 

 

actually from a little drawing I have, it seems that the starting point was probably closer to the intersection Villa di Plinio, it was very hard to make out but I think that is what it looks like

Edited by ozpata, 27 October 2024 - 03:54.

[ozpata]

there was another race very close by in 1939 ( maybe 2.5 o 3 kms from the previous starting point), based on some pictures, it looks like the starting point was here, but have very little else on the rest of the circuit

 

but I suspect that this one is part of the Lido di Ostia which I believe was from around the same time

Edited by ozpata, 27 October 2024 - 03:51.

[Myrvold]

thank you Ray,

I am glad that the map was at the very least somewhat useful 

 

It's useful for many different things. I tend to link to your blog when hosting classic simracing on tracks that you have made a map of. It just looks right!

[LittleChris]

Hopefully this might help identify the start area at the latter Castelfusano circuit.

 

Facebook

Edited by LittleChris, 28 October 2024 - 18:23.

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

thanks to Andreas Hackbarth for the help

 

the map image has been edited to reflect the new information

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 15:18.

[Parkesi]

You are welcome! Always enjoy your artwork. Would love to have one or two maps in poster size. How about it? AH

[Ray Bell]

The standardisation of the maps is very useful, you always know what you're looking at...

 

But one suggestion I'd like to make, Oscar, is that you type in the name of the circuit along with the maps so that a quick 'search this topic' will find the map desired.

 

In the meantime, I think this is the start area for the Corona races:

 

 

There's a sign on that lamp post which says, 'Historic District' and the area behind it is a school yard which might well have provided space for a pit area.

[ozpata]

there is a list of all the tracks in the first post and the date to find them in my blog, but I get what you are saying

[ozpata]

 

 

In the meantime, I think this is the start area for the Corona races:

 

 

There's a sign on that lamp post which says, 'Historic District' and the area behind it is a school yard which might well have provided space for a pit area.

 

 

if you are talking about this track

 

then this is the marker you are looking for

 

if I remember correctly I found it while talking with Don Capps and trying to find out the starting point, I should have the text in the plaque somewhere, but I think the first marker was just a plaque in the sidewalk and wasn't very visible and after a few changes, they did this that some times can be confused by a paper waste container or a plant base.

 

is over W Grand Boulevard at the intersection with South Washburn ave, Don might have some more details. 

 

as always I try to get images or maps as close to the time period to illustrate them as close as possible to the time of use, in this case maps are available but with not much detail, the aerial picture that I used was from mid 1948, if you look at it now, you can still find it, but there a lot more in the way or going across.

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 15:26.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that is there in my pic, but the building in your pic is gone!

 

I didn't realise it or I would have stopped and got a shot, I'll be back in the area on Sunday and I'll do that.

 

Thanks for that information, I do understand the care you go to in getting the maps right.

[ozpata]

the first marker was put down October 18 1986 and raised march 23 2002, this marks the starting point of the 1913 and 14 races, the 1916 start/finish was moved to the north at the intersection of W Grand Boulevard and 3rd street, almost right under where 91 goes across the track, most likely to be closer to the train station

Edited by ozpata, 16 November 2024 - 12:32.

[ozpata]

and here is the location of the marker for the 1916 race

Edited by ozpata, 16 November 2024 - 12:46.

[Ray Bell]

And this one on the inside...

 

I'll see if I can find that too.

[Doug Nye]

"The internationally acclaimed Corona Grand Prize races..."?

 

Surely a somewhat exaggerated description - albeit totally understandable, of course.  

 

DCN

[DCapps]

It was only after what seemed to be some disconnects in the various race reports for the races over the years that it became clear that the 1916 event had a different starting point than the previous ones.

 

Full Credit to Oscar for helping to really nail this down. It was a bit of a headache at times, to be sure.

 

It was a very interesting event held on a quite interesting course at an interesting locale.

 

What I had realized until I received some information from Phil Harms regarding the 1916 event was just how serious the promoters were in securing that year's Vanderbilt and ACA Grand Prize/Gold Cup events.

I knew that it had been mentioned mostly in passing in some of the sources I had, but Corona seemed to be more serious regarding it than I realized.

That said, while Santa Monica certainly had the interest of the Cups Holding folks, other venues were being considered, not to mention even the possibility of not having the two events, but replacing them with a speedway event/events.

[Ray Bell]

I went back tonight...

 

I have captured the makers for both start/finish plaques, the earlier one as pictured above is (as mentioned) in front of what is now a school. The building is indeed still there but camouflaged in my pic by the higher chain wire fence:

 

 

The 1916 one came up on cue just after Third Street:

 

 

And here is the best I could muster of the plaque in the dark, there is a kind of wash over it which could possibly be cleaned off a bit for a better pic:

 

 

I will be in the area again tomorrow, but I'm not sure if I can spend the time.

[Doug Nye]

thanks to Andreas Hackbarth for the help

 

Sorry - but I don't think this Modena circuit plan is right for 1934-37.  See this photo, below, of Nuvolari at the 1936 race in his Scuderia Ferrari-entered Alfa Romeo 12C-36.

 

 

 

Photo: Zagari/Spitzley Collection

 

He is rounding the Monumento ai Caduti delle Prima Guerra ('Memorial to the Fallen of the First War') roundabout, before presumably heading back westward on the Viale delle Rimembranze ('Avenue of Remembrance') towards the start/finish area. A sister Alfa is just visible heading right before locking left to follow in Nuvolari's wheel tracks.  This isn't compatible with the track plan above (sorry Oscar).

 

There is a park road leading into the Monument site today, and it's much closer to the Rimembranze than the plan shows, because the southernmost straight shown as the course of the circuit is in fact the main 'Viale L.A. Muratori' which passes 'underneath' the Monument site before it turns left (into the Viale Nicola Fabrizi) - then hooks left again to join the Viale Martiri de Liberta, creating that 'upturned toe' section of the marked lap.  South down the Martiri and a right-hand curve took one back onto the Rimembranze.  Still with me?

 

[url=https://postimg.cc/F1vgZ9yv]

Google Earth - image dated 2022

 

In fact the Monument itself stands just a little right of the 3km marker on the plan above, so following the course as depicted it would have been passed after the Martiri 'big toe' section described above.  It just doesn't add up that the map represents the Modena circuit as it really was right from 1934 until '47 when Bracco's awful accident in his Delage killed five spectators and saw this city course abandoned in favour of the artificial aerodrome/autodrome further from the city centre.

 

I haven't checked contemporary reference for this historic town circuit - gimme a break, it's Sunday morning - but I don't understand how the lap length would correspond for the entire period 1934-47 with the upturned toe section apparently not in use in '36, so inferring that the course then at least must have been shorter than quoted?  

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 November 2024 - 10:50.