1696 replies to this topic

[ozpata]

 

Sorry - but I don't think this Modena circuit plan is right for 1934-37.  See this photo, below, of Nuvolari at the 1936 race in his Scuderia Ferrari-entered Alfa Romeo 12C-36.

 

 

 

Photo: Zagari/Spitzley Collection

 

He is rounding the Monumento ai Caduti delle Prima Guerra ('Memorial to the Fallen of the First War') roundabout, before presumably heading back westward on the Viale delle Rimembranze ('Avenue of Remembrance') towards the start/finish area. A sister Alfa is just visible heading right before locking left to follow in Nuvolari's wheel tracks.  This isn't compatible with the track plan above (sorry Oscar).

 

There is a park road leading into the Monument site today, and it's much closer to the Rimembranze than the plan shows, because the southernmost straight shown as the course of the circuit is in fact the main 'Viale L.A. Muratori' which passes 'underneath' the Monument site before it turns left (into the Viale Nicola Fabrizi) - then hooks left again to join the Viale Martiri de Liberta, creating that 'upturned toe' section of the marked lap.  South down the Martiri and a right-hand curve took one back onto the Rimembranze.  Still with me?

 

[url=https://postimg.cc/F1vgZ9yv]

Google Earth - image dated 2022

 

In fact the Monument itself stands just a little right of the 3km marker on the plan above, so following the course as depicted it would have been passed after the Martiri 'big toe' section described above.  It just doesn't add up that the map represents the Modena circuit as it really was right from 1934 until '47 when Bracco's awful accident in his Delage killed five spectators and saw this city course abandoned in favour of the artificial aerodrome/autodrome further from the city centre.

 

I haven't checked contemporary reference for this historic town circuit - gimme a break, it's Sunday morning - but I don't understand how the lap length would correspond for the entire period 1934-47 with the upturned toe section apparently not in use in '36, so inferring that the course then at least must have been shorter than quoted?  

 

DCN

 

here are some images of the area and track

 

here is a detail from a city planning map from the 30s that was updated to 1960 first and then 1965 ( most of the changes noted are to buildings and on streets but away from this area in question)

and here a not so detailed map from 1942

 

on the pages from book scans that I have the length is noted as 3.2 kms and the math on the laps/distance confirms it, if I do the layout as the picture suggest then the lap length is  2.90 kms, it won't be the first time that maps show incorrect layout, they could have made a change to the layout right before the race and the map was already printed out or something like that, but as far as I know, that wasn't noted on the pages that I have 

 

my explanation is that during one of those years, they might have chosen to get into that section as a sort of chicane, a modification of the layout or a practice or different event and wasn't noted or used officially.

 

so there might be a an event or year with changes 

 

as always, I am open to fix, modify the maps, as long as I have something that justify and proves that it has to be changed, that is never an issue and I am very grateful for all the help that I get here in the forum or directly to my email with material

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 13:33.

[ozpata]

I did some searching and in Golden Era site the GP of 1936 is noted as 3.2 kms but going clockwise, could it be that they went under the monument on the same layout ? that will keep the distance the same basically and use the section of the monument

 

actually it describes the circuit going under the monument

 

now the question is , in which direction was the race usually run, the 1947 image shows counter clockwise, if the 1936 was run clockwise, what about the other events? 

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 13:53.

[ozpata]

 

Modena 1947 street circuit

at least this should be the 1947 layout 

sorry for the confusion and error

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 15:08.

[ozpata]

I went back tonight...

 

I have captured the makers for both start/finish plaques, the earlier one as pictured above is (as mentioned) in front of what is now a school. The building is indeed still there but camouflaged in my pic by the higher chain wire fence:

 

The 1916 one came up on cue just after Third Street:

 

 

 

And here is the best I could muster of the plaque in the dark, there is a kind of wash over it which could possibly be cleaned off a bit for a better pic:

 

 

I will be in the area again tomorrow, but I'm not sure if I can spend the time.

 

the plaque shows or at least I can make out Teddy Telzlaff, I have some papers and in the corona races site appears as Tetzlaff and Tetxlaff, the mechanic killed in the plaque looks like Schader, but have and seen Shrader and Erick Schroeder

Burman also appears as Berman 

Edited by ozpata, 17 November 2024 - 16:22.

[Ray Bell]

I went back today...

 

 

Wetting the surface made a big difference, but it wouldn't stay wet for long.

 

I also got better pics of the setting and of the other one as well, along with a good shot of the plaque. The school building features well in that, too.

[ozpata]

Modena Street circuit 1934-38

 

 

sorry for the mistake on the earlier version of this map and thanks again to Andreas and Doug 

[Jim Thurman]

the plaque shows or at least I can make out Teddy Telzlaff, I have some papers and in the corona races site appears as Tetzlaff and Tetxlaff, the mechanic killed in the plaque looks like Schader, but have and seen Shrader and Erick Schroeder

Burman also appears as Berman 

It looks like the plaque has it correctly as Tetzlaff. There were many variations of the mechanician's name in newspapers, but research for Motorsport Memorial, using records, found his name to be Erich Schrader. Unfortunately, at the time of the dedication of the monument, his name was still believed to be "Schader."

[ozpata]

[MCS]

What an extraordinary layout. A chicane, seemingly just before the first corner and then the juxtaposed straights.  Incredible, but probably wonderful.

 

How I wish I could have been there!

[Doug Nye]

By reliable accounts the Modena Aerautodromo was perhaps the most boring of flat, bare, walled-in, virtual prison exercise yards you could possibly imagine.  What made it a place of fascination was purely the spectacular cars that were tested and developed around it...

 

DCN

[Parkesi]

Can be topped: today the Parco Enzo Ferrari. A green wasteland with some footpaths but no atmosphere whatsoever. Some small monomenti dedicated to Fangio, Gilles Villeneuve and Ayrton Senna. Villeneuve and Senna never drove there... plus a typically „heroic-style“ monument of Enzo Ferrari facing the city entrance. Done by Marino Quartieri/1998. Only the old chequered red/white tower of the aeroporto is still there, without any function. That’s all - very sad indeed...

[Doug Nye]

indeed - indeed...

 

DCN

[68targa]

Can be topped: today the Parco Enzo Ferrari. A green wasteland with some footpaths but no atmosphere whatsoever. Some small monomenti dedicated to Fangio, Gilles Villeneuve and Ayrton Senna. Villeneuve and Senna never drove there... plus a typically „heroic-style“ monument of Enzo Ferrari facing the city entrance. Done by Marino Quartieri/1998. Only the old chequered red/white tower of the aeroporto is still there, without any function. That’s all - very sad indeed...

Is there any monument to Eugenio Castellotti ?

[Barry Boor]

There certainly should be.

[Rob Miller]

And also for Giulio Cabianca.

[Doug Nye]

...and in Cabianca's case also for the luckless van driver, motor-cyclist and cyclist fatally injured by his careering Cooper-Ferrari?

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 26 November 2024 - 22:50.

[ozpata]

Modena circuit 1952-69

[ozpata]

Parc de Barbieux 1950-53

Edited by ozpata, 09 December 2024 - 12:20.

[ozpata]

Circuit de Mons

 

Edited by ozpata, 16 December 2024 - 13:20.

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

Edited by ozpata, 20 January 2025 - 14:59.

[LittleChris]

Interestingly Darren's site shows different layouts for 1950 and 1951 with the 1950 version seeming to just use the  start straight in the map plus the other two out of the three runways available.  

 

Gamston Track Info

[ozpata]

yes in 1950 there was another layout, shorter at 2.1 km, that was used up to the end of may, then  the longer circuit was first used on August 7 of 1950

Edited by ozpata, 20 January 2025 - 14:48.

[ozpata]

according with the program images I have and the description, the 1.73 mile is the closest you can get, the other layout that I have seen around and report 2m circuit, it comes out closer to 3miles and don't look like the images from the programs, even using alternative roads, and some were not there, it will end up around 2.5m, but the program drawing and description say 1.9m or aprox 2m, as always if somebody has more accurate information, I will change them to reflect that.

 

Right after the war, they only kept using and maintaining two runways, the ones used on this second picture, which are 03/21 (the main longer one) and 14/32, the third one 09/27 wasn't used anymore and not kept functional, also eliminating a section that connected with the main runway, in the 70s was kind put back in use for soft landing but never for regular use .

Edited by ozpata, 20 January 2025 - 15:55.

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

Edited by ozpata, 10 February 2025 - 14:12.

[JonnyA]

Are you sure the direction arrow is in the right place?

[ozpata]

Sebring 1952-1966

 

Edited by ozpata, 19 March 2025 - 11:53.

[ozpata]

Sebring 1967-1982

 

Edited by ozpata, 19 March 2025 - 11:52.

[ozpata]

Amaroo Park 1967-1998

Edited by ozpata, 19 March 2025 - 11:52.

[Ray Bell]

Closed August, 1998, Oscar...

 

And a short while after that disappeared under a housing development.

[ozpata]

Aix-les-Bains 1949 - 1951

 

Edited by ozpata, 19 March 2025 - 11:51.

[70JesperOH]

Closed August, 1998, Oscar...

 

And a short while after that disappeared under a housing development.

 

With Amaroo Park definitely moved from the surface of the earth, there's thankfully a lot of videos to be found on YouTube of all kinds of racing. Never been there, but the videos does give an impression of what a spectacular circuit it was.

 

Jesper

[ozpata]

Aix-les-Bains 1952

Edited by ozpata, 19 March 2025 - 11:51.

[ozpata]

I was doing some research on the Belvedere Airfield  near Salisbury, Rhodesia (now Harare, Zimbabwe), I am also aware that there was also a street circuit  near by and with the same name, but for now I want to clarify a few things about the Airfield circuit that hopefully some of you can help resolve

 

1: have seen different times for when it was used, generally most will say early 1960 and then up to 1968 to 1974 , some will say that the airfield is only 1968 to 74(the-fastlane or racingcircuits.net) in gdecarli.it it has the airfield circuit used from august 1960 to 1974

2: silhouet.com has a drawing, doesn't specify which circuit it is (airfield or some other variation) used from late 50s to early 60s

3: in the site myracingcareer there is a picture or drawing over picture of what the circuit looked like and place it used to be on( that picture is in the images), I believe it also has the street layout and that one looked correct but I wasn't looking into that one in detail

 

now based on these three points and the references they give 

 

I am leaving aside the dates from now, I just wanna see where it was and try to place it correctly, I am sure more than one here can confirm the dates, 

 

 

in this image( the black and white is from 1979) I took the drawing from the silhouet site  and tried to locate that circuit by the street names given, Belvedere rd is still there, McDonald Ave has a different name but through a few maps from the area, one in 1973 still had the old names and basically that area didn't change a whole lot, it has more buildings but basically all the roads are in the same places, an aerial from 1972 looks almost the same, so I doubt that the airfield was there and is almost impossible to place by the street names, I understand that some of those streets could have been longer  back then but it just seems very unlikely, and would be totally insane putting an airfield almost in the middle of the city, not unheard of or unseen but very unlikely

 

then doing more research I came across a bit more detailed information about the airfield ( if it is the correct one) the airfield was used by the RAF elementary Flying Training School, by 1947 the airfield had some issues 

 

by 1950 a report raised issues with possibilities to expand in the future, the runway was some 45 degrees out of alignment, the approach was questionable and leaving was forcing most of the traffic through the main populated area, basically the layout and design no longer suited the newer and increasing demands, particularly commercial demands, so they started to look for a new place to build a new airport as early as january 1947, the plan was to use this airfield for small planes and civilian use, so there was still some use planned for it 

 

by september 1951 the new airport site ( Salisbury airport) had an operational runway, it didn't give a perfect spot to locate it but it said it was a bit further out west a little bit west of Belvedere, where the Warren Hills left a gap, based on that comes picture 2

 

in the picture, the top one shows what it looks like now, the middle one is the drawing of where the airfield circuit was supposed to be according to the site mentioned before, and the bottom is the air picture from 1979, again the one from 72 is nearly identical but contrast was better here

 

if this is the site, it was very unlikely that it was used in 1974, will probably say that is unlikely that it was used late 60s, as there is not an opening that looks like the left overs of an airfield , that supposedly was used for civilian and small aircraft after 1951, everything is cover with trees, nothing looks like is new trees or anything like that, and the area in itself hasn't really changed that much up to now, then is that drawing that is in the middle of this picture, if I do that layout, the best I can come up to is 1,1 miles being generous, and the terrain doesn't look ideal for putting a flying school there

 

Hope that I haven't bored you too much, but I am trying to eliminate spots or suggestions I have found, and hopefully someone has a better spot or answer

 

is not rare that pictures and drawings appear in various sites, with completely wrong information, so If I can, I would like to fix some of those errors, which in some ways was why I started this project to begin with, thank you in advance for any information that can help solve this track layout

 

***the second picture is definitely not, as I have sort of find little pieces to narrow down places, it is most certainly in the first picture but not for all the years that it is given , probably up to early 60s at the most***

 

I am getting a new aerial and playing with contrast and levels to see if I can find some marks and old scars around that might make it easy to identify, the civilian airfield apparently got closed in 1956 

Edited by ozpata, 14 March 2025 - 22:34.

[ozpata]

I have spend most of the day yesterday and most of the night, trying to figure out this one, little pieces of information here and there, some sites from the old Training ground and very few pictures that could help, but gave me some idea what was around, I manage to get a better aerial from 1972 and playing with contrast and levels gave some new ideas to try, the purple or violet lines show what supposedly was around in 1967 as roads, a map was published in early 1970, but even that one said based on an aerial picture from 1967, there were a lot of footpaths that almost served as a blue print or guide for future roads

 

again the yellow shows Belvedere rd and the light blue is a road that still exist today but back then was called McDonald ave, then I got a little drawing that kind of explains how to get to the airfield coming from Salisbury, but wasn't very clear or scaled correctly, but some names helped and then a short post explained where the meteorological observatory was located ( marked by the star), and that is still in the original site, more than that, it says that basically they could walk over to the field on footpaths that existed back then, the airfield basically stopped being used for training by 47 but was still used for other purposes, the new airport for commercial use was operational as early as 1951 and the airfield was used for civilian uses up to 1956 

 

there was a long curve that was kind of ideal to place the airfield layout, a picture of the airfield from the early days, kind of confirmed that was there from the beginning, but very few references in the surrounded area, but I f I do the layout following some of the roads there, I can get the 2miles spot on

 

so assuming that this is the spot, it is clear that if it was used, it was in the late 50s and very early 60s, but as 1967 there was no way of driving there, the construction was there in 1967 taking most of the space so that rules out any racing there from 67 to 74 

 

again any information is welcome and dates of races if in fact it is the spot

[ozpata]

this is what Donnybrook looked like in November of 1972, does anybody has any information on it ? was it used at all ? 

 the track that opened in 1974  was shorter

Edited by ozpata, 18 March 2025 - 01:25.

[ozpata]

Aix-les-Bains 1953

 

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

[ozpata]

Hockenheim 1966-69

[Parkesi]

Thank you Oscar for your contribution today: 07.04.1968 Jim Clark...

[ozpata]

[Hati]

I've seen the old version before but didn't realize it ran anticlockwise.