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#801 ozpata

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 12:01

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#802 cpbell

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 20:43

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Pretty much the first circuit used for international competition, as opposed to a regional event.



#803 ozpata

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 11:59

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#804 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 12:38

Motorcycles only...

Going back to the Altona map, I'm surprised it shows so much change in altitude. The circuit was essentially a sealed surface put on the exposed edge of the lake when it dried up.

#805 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 17:04

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Thanks - I don't think I have ever seen a map of this variant before, and always wondered which roads were used for it! Now I know  :cool:  :smoking:



#806 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 17:34

New to me, too.

#807 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 09:26

 

 

 

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Suddenly it's really obvious where the design for the permanent track came from.



#808 Duc-Man

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 10:46

Suddenly it's really obvious where the design for the permanent track came from.

 

I was wondering what you are talking about, me having the current layout in mind. Now looking at the original layout, you are absolutely right.



#809 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 13:17

The original Watkins Glen is studded with rise and fall, way more so than the artificial circuit...

Ups and downs make a big difference to a circuit. This picture is from the downhill esses towards the bridge, the sharp point at the left of the above map:

131012wgdownhillesses.jpg

#810 ozpata

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 17:52

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#811 cpbell

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Posted 01 November 2019 - 13:41

The original Watkins Glen is studded with rise and fall, way more so than the artificial circuit...

Ups and downs make a big difference to a circuit. This picture is from the downhill esses towards the bridge, the sharp point at the left of the above map:

131012wgdownhillesses.jpg

You can see why it was dangerous, but what a beautiful backdrop!



#812 ozpata

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Posted 08 November 2019 - 13:33

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#813 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 November 2019 - 15:09

All those roads look exactly the same now. They could still be racing there!

#814 Duc-Man

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 10:33

You can see why it was dangerous, but what a beautiful backdrop!

 

But pretty sure there was no investigation for exceeding the track limits...



#815 B Squared

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 14:28

The original Watkins Glen is studded with rise and fall, way more so than the artificial circuit...

Ups and downs make a big difference to a circuit. This picture is from the downhill esses towards the bridge, the sharp point at the left of the above map:

131012wgdownhillesses.jpg

The photos I have around the original circuit, as well as this one, don't begin to illustrate the severity of the varying elevations. It is a blast to drive!

#816 ozpata

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 20:12

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#817 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 00:41

What a shame you can't drive this in its totality any more...

The section from the creek crossing in the latter part of the long straight to the right turn that heads the circuit South is now one way. The wrong way.

And there are some modern improvements to roads in the 'sharp end' near the town of Amiens.

#818 ozpata

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 00:22

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#819 Barry Boor

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 09:11

I have an Amiens story.....

A number of years ago I was fortunate to join Roger Clark on a road trip down to the historique at Pau. On the way down and back we managed to visit several old French race circuits. Amiens was on our route and I scoured the road atlas to see if I could locate the roads that made up the above circuit.

I thought I'd located them, just outside the town, and directed Roger to turn off a road that I thought was part of the circuit onto what appeared to look like another section of the track but this second 'road' very quickly faded away and we found ourselves in the middle of a field. Deciding that maybe we were not actually on the race circuit Roger prepared to turn the T.T. around when we realised we were no longer alone in the field.

A French police car had followed us and the two officers climbed from their car and strolled up to us in order to find out what on earth we were doing..... Fortunately, Roger's French is very good and he was able to explain our presence in the middle of a French field. The policemen looked at one another and with a typical Gallic shrug climbed back into their car and drove away.

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#820 ozpata

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Posted 23 November 2019 - 17:21

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#821 ozpata

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 12:33

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#822 fuzzi

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 14:37

Thank you for maintaining such a high standard in your mapping and for giving us so much to think about.  



#823 ozpata

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:46

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#824 ozpata

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 01:54

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#825 wenoopy

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 09:13

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Um,... that circuit layout was never used at Ardmore. The  back straight continued to the westernmost (left) end of the runway to make a hairpin using the taxiways shown on the plan, and then rejoined  the circuit as shown on your plan. The diagram printed in the programme included a "bus-stop" type chicane half-way along the western side of the track, diverting on to the parallel taxiway and then back again, but this was found to be too tight and was not used. After 1955 the track was run clockwise.

 

Stu



#826 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 10:16

According to the Sergent site the above is correct for 1954 and 1955...

In 1956, when the direction was changed, the hairpin was added.

Or has Sergent got it wrong?

#827 ozpata

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:21

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#828 opplock

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:59

According to the Sergent site the above is correct for 1954 and 1955...

In 1956, when the direction was changed, the hairpin was added.

Or has Sergent got it wrong?

 

Vercoe and Motorsport both agree with Sergent. 

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuits/ardmore

 

Unfortunately the only person I knew who had attended the 1954 NZGP is no longer with us. 



#829 wenoopy

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 10:30

Vercoe and Motorsport both agree with Sergent. 

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuits/ardmore

 

Unfortunately the only person I knew who had attended the 1954 NZGP is no longer with us.  

 

Where on earth does all this misinformation come from!!

All 9 NZ Grands Prix held at Ardmore were run on the same circuit layout. Poor David McKinney must be turning in his grave!!

 

The hairpin was included in the circuit every year. I have the programmes for all 9 Ardmore GP's in which the track diagrams confirm this. and I also attended the last 6 Ardmore GP's.

 

As I tried to say in my earlier post, the track diagram in the 1954 programme included the Hairpin and a chicane on Hangar Straight which diverted the cars on to a parallel service road and then back on to the original one.

At the outset of Practice, it was found that the fastest cars, particularly the BRM V16 were regularly spinning on the right-angled and narrow corners of the chicane, and officials decided to omit the chicane altogether. The 1954 race and every other race was run on this configuration, either anti-clockwise (1954/1955) or clockwise (1956 onward).

 

Graham Vercoe in "The Golden Era of NZ Motor Racing" agrees with this saying on page 61 "The track, anti clockwise for 1954 was proving quite difficult and officials eventually deleted the chicane on the short Hangar Straight.

 

Vercoe may even have been there on the day - his father, a dirt-track speedway racer, was in somebody's pit crew.

 

I suspect that the confusion has arisen from a 1959 publication - "The NZ Grand Prix 1954-1959", which referred to "the cars spinning regularly on the corners at the western end of the course, where the long legs of the "X" were joined by a service road..... The present Hangar Straight was substituted.....speeding up the circuit and providing for a hairpin...". This may have based on a misleading news report or official notice, but somehow seems to have been the basis of some spurious track diagrams .

 

As a matter of interest, Ardmore Airfield is still very much in operation, being the main airfield for small planes, helicopter operators, agricultural operators, and services to outlying islands. It can easily be found on Google, and the satellite view shows that the runways, and  most of the original service roads are still intact, 75+ years after the US built it during World War II. While the main runway had obviously been uprgaded, the rest of the place looks very little changed from the 1950"s.

 

I hope this is of assistance to Ozpata - I have enjoyed your thread and as something of a "map" person eagerly await each new circuit.

 

Stu Buchanan  



#830 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 10:38

Stu, if there's a map in that programme, please put it up on here...

We're all seeking the facts, after all, and I don't think anything short of a map from the time, or a photo showing cars clearly in the hairpin, will do the job.

I'm sure Oscar will be happy to change the map if you can show him it's incorrect.

#831 wenoopy

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 11:00

Ray,

Nothing would please me more than to be able to put the diagram on TNF, but my efforts tonight and yesterday were unsuccessful. I have put things up on this and other forums (fora?) via PostImage in the past, but there must have been some subtle change on someone's software since then. Perhaps I should email it to you.

 

Stu



#832 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 11:34

Please do...

e.mail address as below. I await it with interest.

It's a long time, by the way, since anything changed with the postimage site and methods.

#833 ozpata

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 13:19

any information that can help get the circuit layout as correct as possible is always welcome,

 

in November of 2015 I had posted a map of ardmore as I thought it was but wasn't sure, then when I decided to do it again I saw this information and I assumed was correct ( http://www.silhouet....ks/ardmore.html )

 

ardmor12.png

this is the version I did in 2015 but it wasn't complete 

 

ardmor11.png

 

and this is the new one  for 56 to 62

 

so that  I get it right, because sometimes the programs can be printed with one thing and no register last minute changes, the hairpin was always there and the layout is correct as in this last map, the only difference is 54 and 55 was in the opposite direction

 

also the motorsport magazine site had the two maps omitting the hairpin in 54-55, I went with what I have found 

 

as always , thanks for the information and sorry for the mistake


Edited by ozpata, 12 December 2019 - 13:27.


#834 opplock

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 13:35

Wenoopy, 

 

I was looking at Vercoe's report on the 1956 GP (page 91). The comment about reversing track layout also seemed consistent with a change in layout. On second reading probably not.

 

Please add any circuit maps you have. The problem is that once incorrect information gets into print it is repeated in subsequent publications and, these days, websites.  



#835 wenoopy

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 09:34

any information that can help get the circuit layout as correct as possible is always welcome,

 

in November of 2015 I had posted a map of ardmore as I thought it was but wasn't sure, then when I decided to do it again I saw this information and I assumed was correct ( http://www.silhouet....ks/ardmore.html )

 

ardmor12.png

this is the version I did in 2015 but it wasn't complete 

 

ardmor11.png

 

and this is the new one  for 56 to 62

 

so that  I get it right, because sometimes the programs can be printed with one thing and no register last minute changes, the hairpin was always there and the layout is correct as in this last map, the only difference is 54 and 55 was in the opposite direction

 

also the motorsport magazine site had the two maps omitting the hairpin in 54-55, I went with what I have found 

 

as always , thanks for the information and sorry for the mistake

 

any information that can help get the circuit layout as correct as possible is always welcome,

 

in November of 2015 I had posted a map of ardmore as I thought it was but wasn't sure, then when I decided to do it again I saw this information and I assumed was correct ( http://www.silhouet....ks/ardmore.html )

 

ardmor12.png

this is the version I did in 2015 but it wasn't complete 

 

ardmor11.png

 

and this is the new one  for 56 to 62

 

so that  I get it right, because sometimes the programs can be printed with one thing and no register last minute changes, the hairpin was always there and the layout is correct as in this last map, the only difference is 54 and 55 was in the opposite direction

 

also the motorsport magazine site had the two maps omitting the hairpin in 54-55, I went with what I have found 

 

as always , thanks for the information and sorry for the mistake

 

Do not apologise, Ozpata, it certainly wasn't your mistake.

 

I must check the library system here in Auckland to see if anything shows up in microfilms of old newspapers in early January 1954 to lead to the wrong circuit info.

 

Motor racing often got good news coverage at that time of year because there wasn't a lot of other news.  I have looked at the "Motor Sport" site, and found it difficult to take seriously - their diagrams had pit lanes shown . I don't think ANY circuit had a pit lane in the 1950's or even 1960's, certainly not Ardmore NZ!!

 

Stu Buchanan



#836 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 10:24

From Stu...

1219frstubuchardmore1954only.jpg
1954 programme, which includes the 'bus stop' which ultimately wasn't used.

1219frstubuchardmore1955.jpg
1955 programme, the bus stop gone but still the same direction of racing.

1219frstubucharticle-NZGPannual.jpg

Stu's notes on the above clipping:
 

This is the confusing piece from "NZ Grand Prix 1954 - 1959" publisher Sporting Journals. This was updated and reissued as "The New Zealand Grand Prix Annual, 1960-61" edited and published by Des Mahoney, and still included the confusing piece of prose.

From 1956, Grand Prix programmes included the clockwise diagram as in Ozpata's latest posting.

I hope this info helps clarify the issue. There are not very many photos of the early Ardmore races, and even fewer of the hairpin and Clover Leaf parts of the track. I have found one mis-labelled photo of Roycroft,s Alfa rounding the Hairpin, but it needs a little work to make it clear.


The confusing part is in the end of the third paragraph, "...and providing for a hairpin at the South-Western corner."

I'll also add a bit of my own opinion here... a point raised by Geoff Sykes in relation to the direction of racing at circuits. "You should always have the slowest corner at the end of the fastest straight." Something which many circuits today don't have, but when you think about it, this does make for better racing and gives lower-powered cars a better chance against higher-powered cars. So changing the direction of racing was probably a retrograde step.

If road racing was just an acceleration test, then driving out of a hairpin is ideal, but it's not. Hidden Valley at Darwin is a good example of this problem.



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 13 December 2019 - 11:14.


#837 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 10:58

Fantastic!  This is how progress is made.  Somebody carefully researches the subject and is brave enough to publish their results, and then others chip in with new information.  And all done constructively and respectfully.  TNF at its best!



#838 ozpata

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 15:41

ardmor13.png

 

thank you Stu, Ray and all that have contributed to solve this issue



#839 ozpata

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Posted 14 December 2019 - 11:43

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#840 ozpata

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Posted 17 December 2019 - 13:29

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#841 ozpata

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Posted 20 December 2019 - 12:37

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#842 Michael Ferner

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Posted 20 December 2019 - 14:23

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No criticism, just a short correction: while Andrews AFB is indeed very close to Washington/DC, the track and air base are actually located in Maryland. :)



#843 ozpata

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Posted 20 December 2019 - 14:55

and you are right, the base is about 3 or 5 miles from the District of Columbia, I don't know why I thought it made more sense and make it easy to locate 



#844 ozpata

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Posted 22 December 2019 - 15:49

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#845 ozpata

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 13:04

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#846 ozpata

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 16:45

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#847 ozpata

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#848 ozpata

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#849 ozpata

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#850 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 23:12

Gorgeous artwork - thank you...

 

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