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#151 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 21:37

Thanks for that one, Oscar...

Yet another circuit I've been on without knowing it was there. There was, back in 1981, a large wrecking yard on this site:

0617avenueduprado.jpg

They didn't have very high levels of business scruples, either...

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#152 MCS

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 18:43

Great timing!  I will be in Marseille next week... :clap:



#153 ozpata

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 00:31

marsei14.jpg



#154 wolf sun

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:10

Great timing!  I will be in Marseille next week... :clap:

 

I was there last year, it's a bit like Marseille's Crystal Palace - you can also rent some sort of, ermm, pedalo-cars (for want of a better word), and have a dash around the track!



#155 ozpata

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 10:19

bunbur10.jpg



#156 ozpata

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 10:21

gavea_10.jpg



#157 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:18

That looks seriously tricky!

#158 wolf sun

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 21:20

Why can I not see/open any of Oscar's images anymore? Is anybody else experiencing the same problem?



#159 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 22:05

The ones on this page are fine for me...

I think he had some go down on earlier pages last week.

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#160 wolf sun

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 22:52

Hm, that's odd, I can't see any of them, without exception.  :well:

 

(Another hint for me to again push forward the idea of TNF crowdfunding to have Oscar's work published to some extent, I wonder? Oscar, how do you feel about this?)


Edited by wolf sun, 10 July 2017 - 22:56.


#161 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 05:31

Why can I not see/open any of Oscar's images anymore? Is anybody else experiencing the same problem?

 

I can see them.

 

Vince H.



#162 ozpata

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 10:14

I thought that I have fixed most if not all of them, have posted them in a couple of places and nobody seems to have issues viewing them

 

as always the first post gets updated with each new one to see them in my blog

 

reno_f10.jpg



#163 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 10:45

For almost all the ones on the first page, I get this photobucket message image:
 
photobucket-error-image.png

#164 ozpata

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 20:53

Allen it was my fault, I thought that I have gone through all of them, but was doing the same in a couple of places and obviously, I didn't fix the ones in the first page, they should work now

 

keep in mind that they are cropped down to work on forums, I usually cut down the size anyway to make it easy to manage, the original is about 10000 x 7500, I down size them to about 2000 and then when they get uploaded, they get cut down again so a lot of small detail is hard to see, but otherwise they will be impossible to display but I think in my blog you can see them much bigger

 

doing a book would be probably a complicated thing, I have been thinking in a few different ways of getting something done, but this sort of thing is a bit complicated, but will keep doing some research and consulting

 

just for the record, have close to 25 at different levels of completion and everything is pretty much set up for the next 30 to 50, with another 100 or so starting to organize data and material

 

also I have a request, I have everything set up to do a proper Linas Montlhery and most of the variants, also have a book and other materials but it seems a bit contradictory, when I try to match the measurements with layouts, they don't seem right, in particular the one used for the non championship race in 1950 Paris Grand Prix, I have it at 9.931 km but don't have a layout that can match it, the others I can probably work out, been stuck in that one for over a year and some guys that went to the historical event not long ago, didn't come back with answers

 

if anyone has an even very crude drawing, then I can do the rest, just need to have an proximate idea how it was, that way the 1950 season would be basically complete

 

also note that the Prado circuit in Marseille, in particular in 1946, is not probably correct, at least the starting line, I am fairly confident that the layout is right, as the 47, for a few months I've been measuring and trying alternatives, guiding myself with crude drawings but noting streets names, but I am unsure of starting line, used the 47 starting point, but each year was going in different directions, but from period pictures was probably the only logical place to have proper stands or something like a main stand

 

any help will be appreciated


Edited by ozpata, 11 July 2017 - 21:11.


#165 ozpata

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:48

silver12.jpg



#166 ozpata

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:11

silver14.jpg


Edited by ozpata, 17 July 2017 - 21:23.


#167 lustigson

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:33

Interesting to see a chicane at Club for 1949, but not for 1950-1951.



#168 Allan Lupton

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:11

Interesting to see a chicane at Club for 1949, but not for 1950-1951.

But with the same lap distance quoted.

Based on the result published in Motor Sport in August 1951 the lap distance used was 2.89 miles (4.65 km.) and I think that was the quoted lap distance for many years until about 1975 when they first started messing about with the basic layout.



#169 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:40

According to Maurice Hamilton in his book British Grand Prix the official length of the 1949 circuit, with chicane at Club, was 3 miles exactly. When the chicane was removed for 1950 the official length came down to 2 miles 1,564 yards (which equates to the 2.89 miles quoted above by Allan). Thus the Club chicane added nearly 200 yards to the circuit length, indicating that it was probably a more significant series of corners than it appears on Ozpata's map. There's a photo in the Hamilton book showing cars negotiating it, and there would appear to have been a fairly sharp right-hander onto the runway, then a short straight up to a hairpin left, then another short straight to the right-hander which took them back onto the perimeter track. It was apparently extremely unpopular with the drivers.

#170 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:17

If the Montlhéry book you're working from is Bill Boddy's, then you should treat any measurements in it with caution. British sources often used a simple 'divide by eight, multiply by five' or 'divide by 1.6' when converting kilometres to miles or km/h to mph. If you then apply the correct multiplier of 1.609344 to that result it can give a false answer.

 

Take a 10 kilometre circuit as an example. 10 divided by eight and multipled by five or divided by 1.6 = 6.25 miles. Multiply that by 1.609344 and then round to two decimals and your circuit has now grown by 58 metres!

 

There are hundreds of examples of this, where British press reports have been used as source material. There's even at least one example in Boddy's book where he's converted kilometres into miles by multiplying by 8 and dividing by five, giving a number of miles higher than the number of kilometres!



#171 ozpata

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:07

aug15_10.png

this was the best that I could get from august 1949, and most of searches, even a little section with track history on the Silverstone site, showed an outline with just a little bump, measurements can be quite tricky, Fastlane and  gdecarli, noted the chicane but the distance is shown as the same or 1m difference, and if there is a conversion, can change things quite a bit, but I would fix it if I can get a better picture

 

as far as Montlhéry book, yes is that book, the 1950 GP ( non championship) I have it at 9.9 km and the closest I could get, was 9.1 maybe 9.2 using the  deuxieme Piste Routiere, it is still very visible, but I don't think that I can strech it to 9.9, if that is correct, which I seriously doubt.

 

I 've been leaning more towards the 6.29 kms (3.91miles) of the Troisieme Circuit, but I guess that I am getting confuse by the years supposedly each track was used and that they seem to conflict quite a bit, the 6.2 kms for example it gets reported in a few places like used from 1924 to 34 and the 9.1 kms still in use up to 1973



#172 cpbell

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 14:47

According to Maurice Hamilton in his book British Grand Prix the official length of the 1949 circuit, with chicane at Club, was 3 miles exactly. When the chicane was removed for 1950 the official length came down to 2 miles 1,564 yards (which equates to the 2.89 miles quoted above by Allan). Thus the Club chicane added nearly 200 yards to the circuit length, indicating that it was probably a more significant series of corners than it appears on Ozpata's map. There's a photo in the Hamilton book showing cars negotiating it, and there would appear to have been a fairly sharp right-hander onto the runway, then a short straight up to a hairpin left, then another short straight to the right-hander which took them back onto the perimeter track. It was apparently extremely unpopular with the drivers.

Footage of the chicane can be viewed between 1:16 and 1:24 in the following video:

https://www.youtube....I5BCSvf_Y&t=73s


Edited by cpbell, 17 July 2017 - 14:48.


#173 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 17:14

There is a disproportion between two maps of Silverstone: the second one (1950-51) looks stretched horizontally as compared to the first map (1949). Obviously one of them doesn't comply with the right scale - or both?



#174 ozpata

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 21:26

yes it seems that  I uploaded the wrong one, even the trees are different, I already change it


Edited by ozpata, 17 July 2017 - 21:26.


#175 ozpata

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:01

st_clo11.jpg

correction to the direction


Edited by ozpata, 19 July 2017 - 10:32.


#176 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:09

Interestingly, the only circuit map I have seen of St. Cloud shows the cars running in the opposite direction.

#177 ozpata

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 10:22

and you are probably right, gdecarli indicates one direction and a little drawing seems to show the other way



#178 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 13:03

And being a 'figure 8' course, it has both clockwise and anti-clockwise sections...

#179 ozpata

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:34

st_clo11.jpg

after finding an article from Motorsport in which it mentions turning left after coming out of the tunnel, here is a fixed version, the other post has also this new version



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#180 lustigson

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:14

 

... turning left after coming out of the tunnel...

 

Going the other way also makes cars turn left after coming out of the tunnel, albeit a few hundred meters later, and through a tight hairpin.  :stoned:



#181 ozpata

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:52

torino10.jpg



#182 Barry Boor

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 09:17

I managed to find an image of part of the St. Cloud circuit that I built and raced on when I was living in Malta.  It includes the tunnel.

 

cloud1.jpg

 

It was odd in that I found the left-hander just after the exit from the tunnel very hard to judge, not because I couldn't see the cars but because I couldn't hear them.  :rolleyes:



#183 ozpata

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:36

ohakea10.jpg



#184 ozpata

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 11:14

neplig10.jpg



#185 cpbell

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 16:20

neplig10.jpg

That one appears to have been challenging! 



#186 ozpata

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:42

neplig11.jpg



#187 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 13:26

The older version seems to be longer than the newer one meanwhile your maps claim the contrary. I made a rough measurement in Google Earth, and the difference turned out to be some 200 metres.


Edited by Alexey Rogachev, 30 July 2017 - 13:30.


#188 ozpata

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 14:04

and you are right, I only did the measurements on the 36 using a 64 picture giving, 5.04, then I took for the 66, from gdecarli as 5.2 to be correct, but didn't confirm it, my mistake, actually it should be 4.9 and the straights get a bit closer to the left, it will get fixed, I rushed to get both finish for this weekend with the Hungarian gp and the second one didn't got the proper attention

 

the only records I could find for races at the park in the 60s showed 5.2 km so probably even the layout that I based upon wasn't all that correct

 

by 1964 the was very few options of wide roads on the park plus construction of stadiums taking away space, the other roads can probably manage  cars, but I am not too sure about racing space


Edited by ozpata, 30 July 2017 - 15:11.


#189 ozpata

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 16:09

neplig12.jpg

 

taking as examples, suggested routes around the park for walking and bicycling, the two in the center do get to 5.2 km, but at different points sort of run into each other or is not enough room for cars in a racing situation, given what was usable in 1964 as wide enough roads, let's say almost ready for racing with very little modification, the one on the right, would suit almost perfectly, just adding a bit to the existing layout of 36, also it can be done to the 66, but you can sort of find multiple ways of doing it using the small roads that interconnect the park in different points, racing returned to the park in 1963 and ETCC by 1966, if I am not mistaken, but by early 60s there was construction all around, a power plant, some fields and some of the wider roads got blocked or cut off  and some areas kind of were left without much service


Edited by ozpata, 30 July 2017 - 16:12.


#190 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 17:42

I have some photos from the Cup of Peace and Friendship race held in 1966 in Nepliget Park. Unfortunately they are only from the start-finish straight but if you need them to get proofs (or disproofs) of your assumptions, please let me know.



#191 Cavalier53

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 17:42

re. Silverstone 1949 vs. 1950: in Pole Position, a book issued on behalf of the BRDC in 1987 to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee of the BRDC, Ray Hutton also mentions the 1949 exact 3 mile, and 1950 2.89 mile length. So that seem to be the official figures.

Looking at the layout sketches and the video however, I can hardly imagine the 1949 course was really 176 meters longer. Becoming more and more suspicious - against my nature - it looks like the 3 miles was slightly rounded. Better try to estimate on the basis of the existing evidence, I think.

 

Jan.

 

PS: Much more interesting is the 1948 3.67 mile version using the runways, down to the center of the perimeter road from both sides, if you get what I mean. So much more of a natural road course than the present, mmmm, artificial layout.



#192 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 18:01

neplig10.jpg

 

 

 

This track would be the same as shown at these links...

 

http://www.kolumbus....an/gp363.htm#17

 

https://revslib.stan...tem/tv449zw6995

 

Vince H.


Edited by raceannouncer2003, 31 July 2017 - 18:04.


#193 ozpata

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:15

I am gonna try to find pictures from 60 to 63 period, the aerial that I have from 64 already have the power station built, apparently they modified a section which was more curved into a straight to create more room for that construction, it looks like as the north section was getting developed , they also just moved a couple of sections, basically moving the corner on the top left corner by a few meters, nothing seems major but maybe we can solve this one soon

 

as far as Silverstone, I think there was more than one race in 1949, maybe they did use slightly different modifications and conversions and measurements sometimes can be off, the 1951 and 1952 circuit seems to be identical just changing the starting point, but I have seen different lengths reported, usually by 100m 



#194 ozpata

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 10:51

goodw_11.jpg



#195 LittleChris

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 22:09

It was possible to climb over some small barriers and walk around part of the big sweeping bend just under the bridge but after a few yards I came upon a wire fence, the other side of which is the motorway.

Such a shame.

 

Paid a visit to Rouen on Tuesday on way home after a holiday in the Limousin  and cleared a square foot of foliage to uncover the tarmac at Gresil though it involved clambering up a small bank and through a large number of stinging nettles in shorts ( legs were still buzzing a couple of hours later !).  Was very spooky as the tree canopy only lets a limited amount of light through  these days and as Barry says there's a gate at the exit whilst at the entry there's a pretty much impenetrable bank ( with all sorts of nasty rusty things embedded ). 

 

Will be taking a garden hoe and petrol strimmer next year to sort it out properly !! :D


Edited by LittleChris, 03 August 2017 - 22:10.


#196 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 23:00

Rouen was the most difficult to find circuit I've ever sought out...

Admittedly the language barrier was huge, but maps were impossible. But it was worth the effort and I'm glad that others are finding it too.

#197 cooper997

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:32

A virtual lap of Rouen in this fantastic Castrol film of the 1962 French GP
https://youtu.be/p7YpsWmsqVs

Stephen

#198 ozpata

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 10:59

gransd10.jpg

first post list updated



#199 ozpata

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 11:32

dijon_10.jpg



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#200 ozpata

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 11:02

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