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Mercedes W08


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#4001 Jordan44

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:55

If there had been a gentlemens agreement, then Ferrari has every right to be furious.


Not really. When have gentlemen's agreements existed in F1? I see it as incredibly naive for Ferrari to trust the other engine manufacturers when there's a competitive advantage involved.

Edited by Jordan44, 26 August 2017 - 12:48.


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#4002 GoldenColt

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:31

If that's true, Ferrari have been played. Which gives me an enormous amount of pleasure. That's the killer instinct we need to beat the reds. Beating them with their own weapons makes it that little bit sweeter.



#4003 alessandro2013

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:55

If that's true, Ferrari have been played. Which gives me an enormous amount of pleasure. That's the killer instinct we need to beat the reds. Beating them with their own weapons makes it that little bit sweeter.

:stoned:  yes! and...this is groucho marx or ping pong? PS spec. 4 on Haas I guess.



#4004 RottenAli

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:24

Mercedes have a terrible suspension set up today. The amount of vibrations still obvious after running on kerbs looks like the whole rear end is going to rip it's self apart. Effective spring rates and damper settings are wholly wrong. Guess the signals are lagging in the system, oh my the Sauber is doing it too... What the heck are the tyre pressures today? It's a feed back / info output nightmare. More damping - less stiff Spring rate to cure?

#4005 Lights

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 15:26

2 tenths in qualifying here is much less than I expected. Ferrari is going to stay all over them the rest of the year.



#4006 nemanja

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 21:36

So of course, now I have to wander over to the Ferrari thread to enjoy any whinging going on...

Not really...



#4007 NoDivergence

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 22:51

2 tenths in qualifying here is much less than I expected. Ferrari is going to stay all over them the rest of the year.

 

That was with a quarter of a second worth of tow, however



#4008 Lights

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 12:43

Well even in the race it seems Ferrari is at least matching Mercedes. Maybe quicker. At Spa.

 

Doesn't look at all good for Mercedes, or Hamilton for the WDC to be more precise.



#4009 femi

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 13:58

Well even in the race it seems Ferrari is at least matching Mercedes. Maybe quicker. At Spa.
 
Doesn't look at all good for Mercedes, or Hamilton for the WDC to be more precise.

Considering that Ferrari were shod with tyres 2 compounds faster, DRS and how assisted, the Mercedes was still faster. That didn't look good at all for Ferrari. Being close in the race,looked very much he was managing the gap. Impressive see how he blew pass KIMI...

#4010 femi

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:04

Mantis Toboggan: Ridiculous bravado from Ham to Vettel. ' I lifted to keep you close'

#4011 Lights

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:04

Considering that Ferrari were shod with tyres 2 compounds faster, DRS and how assisted, the Mercedes was still faster. That didn't look good at all for Ferrari. Being close in the race,looked very much he was managing the gap. Impressive see how he blew pass KIMI...

 

Toto Wolff said it himself. Ferrari caught up on tracks like these, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to run similar laptimes the entire race. And if Ferrari caught up here than Mercedes has to catch up on tracks like Singapore. And I doubt that's the case.

 

Despite the win today this did not look good for Mercedes for the rest of the season.



#4012 AmonGods

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:05

If all the races would be on soft tires Lewis would breeze this wdc. The reality is that is really close. All I hope is we dont get another dnf like in Malaysia last year.



#4013 Jordan44

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:10

If all the races would be on soft tires Lewis would breeze this wdc. The reality is that is really close. All I hope is we dont get another dnf like in Malaysia last year.

 

It has certainly been a trait of all the Mercedes cars that they seem to be faster & kinder on the harder compounds. I have often wondered if they could be even further ahead if they somehow found more time on the softer compounds.


Edited by Jordan44, 27 August 2017 - 14:11.


#4014 MortenF1

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:12

Development race continues. Ferrari have made inroads on open tracks, now Mercedes must do the same for the twistier ones.
...and Ferrari are bringing their engine upgrade next weekend.

#4015 maaaarsh

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:14

Mantis Toboggan: Ridiculous bravado from Ham to Vettel. ' I lifted to keep you close'

 

Ridiculous stupidity from Mantis Toboggan (is that a real person?) - Lewis lifted just before Eau Rouge so that Vettel was too close and couldn't get a run at him coming over the top (he had to pull to the side almost immediately so had no real momentum). Incredibly smart from Lewis and all the nice but dim commentators completely miss the point. Without that, Vettel won the race.



#4016 Seanspeed

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:17

Considering that Ferrari were shod with tyres 2 compounds faster, DRS and how assisted, the Mercedes was still faster. That didn't look good at all for Ferrari. Being close in the race,looked very much he was managing the gap. Impressive see how he blew pass KIMI...

We could see in the rest of the race that Vettel had zero problems keeping up with Lewis.  And they were pulling away from Kimi/Bottas behind at a good rate, so it's not like Lewis was just cruising around. 

 

The situation at the end wasn't because Ferrari wasn't fast enough, it was because dirty air was ruining any ability to actually get close to the cars in front.  We know Kimi was plenty faster than Ricciardo, but even he couldn't get the slightest bit close to him.   Bottas similarly couldn't get remotely close to Kimi.  Had Vettel gotten by on the restart, Lewis would have likely not gotten anywhere near Vettel, either. 



#4017 Seanspeed

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:18

Ridiculous stupidity from Mantis Toboggan (is that a real person?) - Lewis lifted just before Eau Rouge so that Vettel was too close and couldn't get a run at him coming over the top (he had to pull to the side almost immediately so had no real momentum). Incredibly smart from Lewis and all the nice but dim commentators completely miss the point. Without that, Vettel won the race.

Vettel got a great run on Lewis twice, though.  Lewis' actions didn't matter at all - what mattered was that 1.6L engine sitting behind him.  Vettel pulled alongside plenty early enough to make a clean pass, but the power disparity was very obvious to see after that happened as Vettel fell back.  



#4018 Jordan44

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:20

Vettel got a great run on Lewis twice, though.  Lewis' actions didn't matter at all - what mattered was that 1.6L engine sitting behind him.  Vettel pulled alongside plenty early enough to make a clean pass, but the power disparity was very obvious to see after that happened as Vettel fell back.  

 

Lewis's actions did matter as Seb basically said himself. He suspects he could have made the pass if Lewis hasn't lifted, he wasn't happy with the restart.



#4019 maaaarsh

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:21

Vettel got a great run on Lewis twice, though.  Lewis' actions didn't matter at all - what mattered was that 1.6L engine sitting behind him.  Vettel pulled alongside plenty early enough to make a clean pass, but the power disparity was very obvious to see after that happened as Vettel fell back.  

 

Nope, even Alonso got past Hulkenburg comfortably on the straight without DRS - if you come over the top 3 car lengths behind you get an easy run and no engine will save you.

 

Lewis got Vettel on to his exhaust and turned it in to an engine contest, removing the momentum advantage Seb should have had - Vettel himself admitted he was too close and missed his chance. All down to exceptional race craft which commentators are now calling bravado as they can't stop to think what he meant. 



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#4020 CountDooku

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:22

Vettel got a great run on Lewis twice, though. Lewis' actions didn't matter at all - what mattered was that 1.6L engine sitting behind him. Vettel pulled alongside plenty early enough to make a clean pass, but the power disparity was very obvious to see after that happened as Vettel fell back.


To pass you have to be going faster than the person you overtake. Given Seb was behind without DRS, he needed a tow or a more powerful engine to pass Lewis. He didn't have the latter and Lewis' actions meant he also didn't have the former.

#4021 Lights

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:23

Development race continues. Ferrari have made inroads on open tracks, now Mercedes must do the same for the twistier ones.
...and Ferrari are bringing their engine upgrade next weekend.

 

Not going to happen.

 

On this (supposedly) Mercedes track, Hamilton had to pull in the win by the skin of his teeth and Bottas couldn't get anywhere near Vettel.

 

Monza might work in the favor of Mercedes, but the races after that I expect to be Ferrari territory. Mercedes can probably still win the WCC due to Kimi (as long as Bottas returns to his pre-summer form), but the WDC will be won by Vettel.


Edited by Lights, 27 August 2017 - 14:24.


#4022 Seanspeed

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:24

That's cool.  I actually watched the race and saw the bleeding obvious - as soon as Vettel pulled out from the slipstream, he couldn't make any more ground.  It didn't matter what Lewis did as Vettel didn't have the power to get ahead.  You guys can pretend Lewis was some mastermind if you want, but I think y'all know he was saved because he had more power. 



#4023 AmonGods

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:25

Vettel got a great run on Lewis twice, though.  Lewis' actions didn't matter at all - what mattered was that 1.6L engine sitting behind him.  Vettel pulled alongside plenty early enough to make a clean pass, but the power disparity was very obvious to see after that happened as Vettel fell back.  

Bottas must be driving a honda then? He got past by Daniel and Kimi after restart. I think Lewis must have done something right to keep Vettel behind.



#4024 Jordan44

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:25

Not going to happen.

 

On this (supposedly) Mercedes track, Hamilton had to pull in the win by the skin of his teeth and Bottas couldn't get anywhere near Vettel.

 

Monza might work in the favor of Mercedes, but the races after that I expect to be Ferrari territory. Mercedes can probably still win the WCC due to Kimi (as long as Bottas returns to his pre-summer form), but the WDC will be won by Vettel.

 

Vettel could easily retire from the race in Monza, far too early to be discussing this.

 

There is still plenty of season left for development too.


Edited by Jordan44, 27 August 2017 - 14:26.


#4025 CountDooku

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:25

Not going to happen.

On this (supposedly) Mercedes track, Hamilton had to pull in the win by the skin of his teeth and Bottas couldn't get anywhere near Vettel.

Monza might work in the favor of Mercedes, but the races after that I expect to be Ferrari territory. Mercedes can probably still win the WCC due to Kimi (as long as Bottas returns to his pre-summer form), but the WDC will be won by Vettel.


The season isn't static and Spa still requires a tonne of downforce to be fast here. IMO Mercedes will be faster in more of the races left though it will be close. And Seb still has penalties to take.

#4026 maaaarsh

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:26

That's cool.  I actually watched the race and saw the bleeding obvious - as soon as Vettel pulled out from the slipstream, he couldn't make any more ground.  It didn't matter what Lewis did as Vettel didn't have the power to get ahead.  You guys can pretend Lewis was some mastermind if you want, but I think y'all know he was saved because he had more power. 

 

Yes - he pulled out of the slip stream with a 1 or 2 mph advantage, rather than the 6 or 7 advantage he would have had if he'd had a run at him - stop playing dumb.



#4027 Jordan44

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:26

Yes - he pulled out of the slip stream with a 1 or 2 mph advantage, rather than the 6 or 7 advantage he would have had if he'd had a run at him - stop playing dumb.

 

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. 



#4028 krea

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:32

It was an expected win by the better car today. Stay easily ahead of the Ferrari despite the harder compounds was telling.

#4029 Marklar

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:33

You do have to consider that this all just happened because Vettel was handed a huge tyre advantage. Mercedes had a decent advantage overall over one lap, over the race distance they were anyway never outright quicker except of Silverstone, so Ferrari being close is something which is probably not worrying for them at all in context of the season so far.

 

Those who believe that either team will have a walkover from now are extremely naive. Singapore will be a outright Ferrari track most likely, Monza perhaps for Mercedes. Everything else might well depend on form.

 

As for the engine advantage saving Hamilton: He contributed a lot to it himself by lifting early, otherwise Vettel would have got him like the others got Bottas. Mercedes might have thanks to their upgrade a engine advantage now (or at least a topspeed advantage thanks to set-up) but it's getting extremely exagerated. Hamilton build up the buffer in the final stint mostly in the 2nd sector, where the engine has little impact



#4030 SonGoku

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:34

Very concerning how close Ferrari was today, Allison needs to get off his ass and speed up the developments, I hear and see Ferrari updates every weekend, Mercedes keep bringing the same car. 

 

And we still have Singapore to come...



#4031 Risil

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 14:36

Finally, we got this thread over the line at 4000 posts. Part 2 this way.