24 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Sergio Canamasas is now one of the crash kids in the top junior categories. But what were really the worst drivers in that category of Racing?

[bill p]

Sergio Canamasas is now one of the crash kids in the top junior categories. But what were really the worst drivers in that category of Racing?

Define worst.........

Finishes, qualifying, crashes, disqualifications, fines etc etc

[Michael Ferner]

No, no, not me!


Signed,
The poster formerly known as fines

[ensign14]

Jean-Pierre Frey.  Simples.

[Henk Vasmel]

Let's try a definition of "worst":

 

Least likely to make it to the top and the most obvious never to get there.

[Richard Jenkins]

I don't like these threads as even the worst driver in these categories has far more talent than I - and many others - ever will at driving a racing car. And yes, that even includes Mario Waltner.

[LotusElise]

It's traditional to mention Chanoch Nissany in these discussions, isn't it? He did some Formula 3000.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

The thing I hate about these, is that nobody gives a reason as to "why" or "how" they are the worst??? at least give reason!!! and some dignity to these poor souls who wound up at the wrong end of the F2/F3000 Grid!! or any other series for that matter!!

 

Just for instance "Ensign14" has picked Jean-Pierre Frey......pouring over my records.....is it that simples??? a fair candidate, but does 2 bit part seasons count??? fair enough he failed to qualify for a single race in F3000, but What else do we know of Frey?? This guy is a Businessman, dodgy dealings in property for which he was prosecuted for!!, that's a bit like me trying to flog you Edinburgh Castle!! so selling stuff he didn't own basically!! apparently still involved in many businesses to this day!! But fair play to the guy, he had the money to go for the racing dream so why not??

 

Anyway, Digging through my records, I have a candidate!!, F2/F3000 drivers seldom hang around longer than a couple seasons, plus there have been many drivers who have only done bit part seasons and mostly had pretty dismal F2/F3000 careers but gone on to better things!! One Christian Horner had a pretty dismal record in F3000 before he gave up and went on to management!!

 

If I mention Viktor Maslov......I can hear you say who???? Well, Three full seasons in International F3000 and 2 bit part seasons in Italian F3000, between '99-'01 So essentially thats near 5 seasons worth in F3000!! 

In '99 he failed to qualify for a single race!! entered for the full season!!, But did manage 1 point in Italian F3000 That year!!.... 2000, 5 DNQ's and a best place of 15th. 2001 a depleted grid so no worries of not qualifying.... 2 best places of 10th.

 

But!!! There is always a but!!, am I being unfair on Maslov?? This was about the time when Russians were finally free to race around the world!!, before this time Russian racers were confined to only racing in the old Russia!!

 

I often remember Alexander Lvov, Touring Car Legend in Russia!! but by the time he got to break free, it was all too late sadly!! we'll never know. As for Maslov??? if  you one for the open seas, and yachting's you thing?? well you could well be sailing on a another great Yacht design by Maslov, as designing Yacht's became his forte....it's a fickle old world, but these guys should celebrated!! celebrate the triers and dreamers!!

maybe one day you'll come in to chunk of cash!! what what would you do????

[sabrejet]

Well I too dislike these 'discussions' but I'll join in just to stimulate a bit of debate and hopefully answer something which has caused me to ponder over the years. I'm not putting this driver forward as 'worst', in the same way as I wouldn't try and justify Martin Brundle as a better driver than Ayrton Senna, just because was able to beat Senna the odd time in F3.

 

So (and memory may be playing tricks), I recall circa 1999 at the New Nurburgring round, a driver being called in for a stop/go - probably for speeding in the pitlane. He served his sentence, only to be flagged again for another indiscretion on his stop/go pitstop, and there then followed a succession of further stops, all aimed at correcting the wrongs of the previous one. As I recall it the team eventually withdrew driver and car.

 

I've often wondered what happened to said driver, because I think we all have days like that and I rather hope he went on to bigger and better things. Taken on that single race, I'm sure many would put him forward as one of the worst drivers, but stats don't tell the full story.

 

Anyone recall this and remember who it was?   

Edited by sabrejet, 23 February 2017 - 05:39.

[ensign14]

Just for instance "Ensign14" has picked Jean-Pierre Frey......pouring over my records.....is it that simples???

Yes. Yes it is that simples.

Cribbing from Simon Arron's assemblage of the Frey career, his full F3k qualifying record is:

1986
Silverstone - 36th/37
Vallelunga - 35th/37
Pau - 36th/37
Spa - 36th/36
Imola - 34th/37 (a career highlight)
Mugello - 36th/37
Enna - 36th/36
Osterreichring - 34th/35
Birmingham - 34th/34
Le Mans - 35th/37
Jarama - 35th/35

1987
Silverstone - 32nd/33
Vallelunga - 32nd/32
Spa - 34th/34
Donington Park - 33rd/34
Enna - 34th/34
Brands Hatch - 36th/36
Birmingham - 34th/35
Imola - 34th/34

The three drivers he beat at Imola were Richard Dallest, who basically didn't set a time, Fulvio Ballabio, who was driving a car built for Formula 1 in 1979, and Aldo Bertuzzi, who was in Frey's back up car for two races (and out-qualified him in the second).

[chunder27]

Ceccotto, one man wrecking ball.  Was quick but I would have hated racing against that idiot.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Yes. Yes it is that simples.

 
No No it's not that simples   I've seen Frey's record, and it's pretty Dismal reading and I did agree with you is very a worthy candidate, my point was is ,the most people just pick a name out of thin air without any justification as to why?? but you have now backed up your candidate with the facts, So fair play, but I'll stick with Maslov!!
 
I mean if it wan't for us, nobody would know who the hell Jean-Pierre Frey or Viktor Maslov are!! 

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Ceccotto, one man wrecking ball.  Was quick but I would have hated racing against that idiot.

Which Cecotto are we talking about here?? "Cecotto Sr" had 3 sporadic seasons in F2 Between 1980-1982 winding up 2nd in 1982 in his only full season!! Cecotto Sr's Legacy speaks for itself, so am gonna leave it there before I go off on a tangent....

 

"Cecotto Jr" on the other hand?? Hmmmm??? 7 and bit seasons in GP2 with 8 different teams, occasional flashes of brilliance indeed, as he did manage 4 wins, but nearly 8 seasons under his belt in GP2 and pretty scant reward, 5th in 2014 being the highlight!!, that's a lot of years racing for little reward!!

[ensign14]

Maslov did at least qualify for a few races.  Although there was a story he took part in an illegal street race in Moscow - and lost.

 

Another one to watch was Pascal Witmeur, whose one F3000 appearance at Spa in 1991 saw him lap about a minute slower than everyone else, but that was because he had FREE GACHOT on the side of his car and wanted everyone to see the message.  Apparently our quondam EU allies thought it a little unfair to lock someone up who drove into the side of a tax and then gassed its driver.

[HistoryFan]

Worst in my definition is very slow. So many seconds far away from others for example.

Today most drivers in GP2 are very quick, but I think 30 years ago there were more slower drivers in there.

[nexfast]

What about Francesco Vento? Never heard of him? Well, that's normal as he did, as far as I know, only one single F2 race, the GP de Rome 1967  (Vallelunga) where he was disqualified after 7 laps for being too slow. Could it be the car?  It was a Condor with an Alfa Romeo engine. I must confess my ignorance about this car as the only Condor I was aware of was a sports car built in 63 or 64. Probably a not very competitive proposition. Still, not very common to be disqualified for lack of speed in these categories.

[ensign14]

Could it have been the later Condor FJ car?

 

[chunder27]

I was talking about the recent Ceccotto, the one who developed into a decent driver but started out being a menace!!

[Stephen W]

Yet another pathetic "If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle." threads.

[ensign14]

It's not "pathetic".  There has to be a logic in that if you took every single F2/3k/GP2 driver and lined them up, you could do so in order of size, age, or ability. 

 

Now assessment of ability may be entirely subjective, and if it isn't then it is strongly subjective.  But it is just as valid a debate to have as over the greatest racing car of all time or the most challenging circuit.

 

After all, there are plenty of polls and discussion about the best - Autosport recently looked at the most versatile - so I don't see any harm in looking at the opposite end. 

 

Especially as that's where many of the fascinating stories lie.  Frey seems to be quite the interesting character for instance.  Not least as he called his team Dollop.  What drove him to tilt at such windmills?  How did he get his revolving door of team-mates?  How did he afford 2 cars for 2 seasons with an unparalleled track record of shiteness?  How many mechanics were working on the whole thing?

 

And that's without even thinking about the parade of Italian drivers that stretched to the crack o' doom in the 1980s (Tesini, DeBenedetti, Tacchino, de Tommaso) and barely tickled the occasional grid, plus other random one-offers over the piece like Wyatt Stanley and mass murderer Klaus Walz.

[chunder27]

Just ignore him, nostalgia forum people tend to only be happy if they are talking about bonnet straps on Elites or who finished 13 the in a race 75 years ago, and if we have pictures of him.

 

The sad thing about F3000 and F2 is the drivers that were superb in that category and didn't get anywhere and the ones that were average or had immense backing and get there and stayed for a while!

[bigears]

Maslov did at least qualify for a few races.  Although there was a story he took part in an illegal street race in Moscow - and lost.

 

 

I thought it was Sergy Zlobin?

 

EDIT>> Found it: http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/2675697.stm

 

As Jean-Pierre Frey was stuck at the back end of the F3000 grid, how was he in sportscars?

Edited by bigears, 24 February 2017 - 14:57.

[nexfast]

Could it have been the later Condor FJ car?

 

 

Don't think so. The FJ Condor was British and the car of Vento was entered in the Rome GP by Luigi Bertocco, the guy behind the Italian sports car of the same name.

[ensign14]

I thought it was Sergy Zlobin?

EDIT>> Found it: http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/2675697.stm
&
As Jean-Pierre Frey was stuck at the back end of the F3000 grid, how was he in sportscars?

Totally forgot about Zlobin. In 2007 someone tried to assassinate him via car bomb. The bomb was about as effective as he was.

Frey in sportscars? Not even mediocre in the C2 category. Never got higher than 7th in that category. Perhaps his best performance was at Spa 1989, where he actually beat someone.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

I thought it was Sergy Zlobin?

 

EDIT>> Found it: http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/2675697.stm

 

As Jean-Pierre Frey was stuck at the back end of the F3000 grid, how was he in sportscars?

It was Zlobin, Anyway Frey & SportsCars?? Ermm......a case of where do you start??? very sporadic appearances between '84 & '89 1 in IMSA in a Ford Probe GT classified 50th. 7 points (whoop whoop)!!   2 starts in the Le Mans 24hrs ... 1985-Did Not Start, 1988-Did Not Finish,

The rest is mostly In group C2 Spice Tiga's, Alba Ford's throw in the odd Porsche 930 and Lancia LC2 as one does!! but a total of 19 sportscar races all over the place and the grand total 13 points!!

 

Oh... he even managed a small 6-7 race stint in Indycars too!!! fair to say he got about!!

Edited by BMWTeamBigazzi, 25 February 2017 - 01:58.