2894 replies to this topic

[lbennie]

The gain from Q2 to Q3 is in part due to the big team's not wanting to shred through their stint 1 tyres. Not just engine modes

[Ivanhoe]

The gain from Q2 to Q3 is in part due to the big team's not wanting to shred through their stint 1 tyres. Not just engine modes

Still you mostly see Ferrari and Mercedes making a bigger step than the Red Bull's

[Requiem84]

12 hp actually, but hey, you are not *that* far off I guess

 

Do I understand correctly that you say the Merc Q mode is only worth 12HP? 

[doc83]

Maybe RB boys have to try harder in Q2 to make sure they'll get into Q3... It's easy to blame everything on the engine but it was clear from the very first preseason test that RB's chasis is way behind. If Ferrari haven't been on par with Merc people would say their engine is down on power. Now when Ferrari have finally built a great car people say engines are almost equal. The truth is we have absolutely no idea if the differance comes mainly from the chasis or engine (Honda only exeption).

[Ivanhoe]

Maybe RB boys have to try harder in Q2 to make sure they'll get into Q3... It's easy to blame everything on the engine but it was clear from the very first preseason test that RB's chasis is way behind. If Ferrari haven't been on par with Merc people would say their engine is down on power. Now when Ferrari have finally built a great car people say engines are almost equal. The truth is we have absolutely no idea if the differance comes mainly from the chasis or engine (Honda only exeption).

Nah, they easily qualify at least P5/P6, there's no pressure whatsoever from behind.

[Requiem84]

Maybe RB boys have to try harder in Q2 to make sure they'll get into Q3... It's easy to blame everything on the engine but it was clear from the very first preseason test that RB's chasis is way behind. If Ferrari haven't been on par with Merc people would say their engine is down on power. Now when Ferrari have finally built a great car people say engines are almost equal. The truth is we have absolutely no idea if the differance comes mainly from the chasis or engine (Honda only exeption).

 

For us fans it is hard to understand where the speed difference comes from. But a few pointers:

 

The teams have quite accurate GPS speed measurements. RB states that they are fastest in corners, or at least equally fast and still lose 1 second at Suzuka. In addition, RB notes that Merc and Ferrari are visually running more downforce and still obtain higher engine speeds. 

[doc83]

I do not doubt Renault's engine is less powerful but I highly doubt RB's chassis is on par with Merc and Ferrari. Even in Monaco they were much slower than Ferrari and also slower than Bottas.

[Requiem84]

I do not doubt Renault's engine is less powerful but I highly doubt RB's chassis is on par with Merc and Ferrari. Even in Monaco they were much slower than Ferrari and also slower than Bottas.

 

They were pretty much behind in the early part of the season due to correlation issues. They had a massive upgrade development starting in Barcelona, which now resulted in a car that is equal/faster than Merc (according to RB themselves). 

Horner after Suzuka:

 

"So what we seemed to find is, if we pick a corner like 130R, compared to our immediate competitors, even though that corner is flat-out, we never recover on the exit of the corner.

"We drop two tenths in that one corner. It's like Turn 3 in Barcelona, Turn 3 in Russia... those types of corner are particularly painful.

"And with this track now being a bigger percentage full-throttle, particularly towards the end of the first sector, accelerating out of the two Degners, out of the hairpin, around into the last sector... we see it's pretty painful there.

"We gave away in qualifying the best part of a second.

"The chassis has been strong all weekend, we can see from the GPS overlays that the chassis is right there.

"And obviously [Mercedes and Ferrari] can't run in the high power modes for that duration during the race."

Horner said that the nature of the corners at Suzuka meant that any power deficit was punished more than normal.

"Ultimately it's power, because as soon as you put a little bit of scrub, the engine isn't able to pull through," he said. "It's very sensitive to its acceleration at that point.

"Whereas if you've got the power, you can see that Mercedes and Ferrari are running more downforce than us.

"They're running a monkey seat, a deeper rear wing, and still their speed is extremely impressive."

 

Marko after Malaysia:

 

Marko felt this a milestone performance in Red Bull's progress back towards world championship contention after starting the season a distant third behind Mercedes and Ferrari.

"The big satisfaction is to overtake Mercedes and pull away," Marko told Autosport.

"It shows that the works that we did since our poor start in Melbourne paid off, and the development goes in the right direction.

"Chassis-wise, for sure we are the best now.

"We're going in the right direction and getting faster and faster, the car is really good.

"If everything stays together then Max or Daniel can achieve a podium, and maybe one or the other can win."

[GhostR]

I do not doubt Renault's engine is less powerful but I highly doubt RB's chassis is on par with Merc and Ferrari. Even in Monaco they were much slower than Ferrari and also slower than Bottas.

 

Monaco is a long time ago in F1 development. RB appear to have won the development war (chassis side) this year, once they resolved their wind tunnel calibration issues and started bolting on new parts. Monaco was run during the phase where they were still recovering from the wind tunnel leading them up a garden path. More recently, they appear genuinely quick in terms of chassis, especially as they're still compromising a bit on down force to get top speed (Ricciardo was pretty explicit about that for Suzuka).

[Augurk]

What I'm wondering about though is what is their position relative to the other teams? Have teams 4 - 10 also improved in comparison to Ferrari and Mercedes? As I recall RB started out comfortably behind and comfortably ahead, in a huge void that was called 3rd best team. They have edged closer to the front 2, but has the gap behind them increased also? 

 

I don't have the time to look at all the data, otherwise I would. 

 

If the other teams have also made significant strides it could just be the law of diminishing returns. If Red Bull's relative position to behind has also improved a lot, pace-wise, it would definitely be Red Bulls achievement. 

[kevinracefan]

Honda now says that what I've been saying since Hungary (and no one listens too) is correct...

 

BOOM EYETEST

[MastaKink]

Do I understand correctly that you say the Merc Q mode is only worth 12HP? 

 

The Q3 God Mode is effectively the oil burn map and I've never seen an estimate putting it above 20. 15-20 was the most common figure reported. 

 

It can be more than just peak power that causes the Renault to leak more time to the Mercedes over a lap. There was a report about it not accelerating through 130R for example. They have better reliability too so they can be running it harder in the first place so can be closer to the ultimate peak power than Renault can get before they even use that map in Q3.

 

Most of the difference we see lately is the Merc chassis not working as well in different conditions. Cooler on Saturday in both Mal+Jpn so the car works the tyres better over a lap and we see its genuine pace but in the hotter temps over a stint the next day in the race they're killing the rears apparently so the drivers are conserving rather than attacking like in Q.

 

Hence big swing making it look like the Q3 mode is the difference but it's not worth more than a tenth or two according to AMuS,F1AT etc..  

[ArrowsLivery]

They were pretty much behind in the early part of the season due to correlation issues. They had a massive upgrade development starting in Barcelona, which now resulted in a car that is equal/faster than Merc (according to RB themselves). 

Horner after Suzuka:

 

Marko after Malaysia:

 

I am sure the car constantly dragging to the ground has nothing to do with scrubbing speed at all the longer corners. 

[Requiem84]

The Q3 God Mode is effectively the oil burn map and I've never seen an estimate putting it above 20. 15-20 was the most common figure reported. 

 

It can be more than just peak power that causes the Renault to leak more time to the Mercedes over a lap. There was a report about it not accelerating through 130R for example. They have better reliability too so they can be running it harder in the first place so can be closer to the ultimate peak power than Renault can get before they even use that map in Q3.

 

Most of the difference we see lately is the Merc chassis not working as well in different conditions. Cooler on Saturday in both Mal+Jpn so the car works the tyres better over a lap and we see its genuine pace but in the hotter temps over a stint the next day in the race they're killing the rears apparently so the drivers are conserving rather than attacking like in Q.

 

Hence big swing making it look like the Q3 mode is the difference but it's not worth more than a tenth or two according to AMuS,F1AT etc..  

 

Surprising to read such low numbers. Still doesn't sufficiently answer why Merc is so far ahead in Q and then falls back almost by a second in terms of racepace. Something else going on here definitely. 

 

With respect to the bolded part, it seems that RB only noticed the 130R issue in qualifying. In race trim their engine does not seem to have the same deficit relatively to Merc. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Surprising to read such low numbers. Still doesn't sufficiently answer why Merc is so far ahead in Q and then falls back almost by a second in terms of racepace. Something else going on here definitely. 
 
With respect to the bolded part, it seems that RB only noticed the 130R issue in qualifying. In race trim their engine does not seem to have the same deficit relatively to Merc.

Fuel usage?

They probably run lighter as the time saved by carrying less fuel is better for them? Especially if they are still heavy...

[statman]

Renault 'months' ahead with 2018 Formula 1 engine reliability work

 

Could be an interesting season next year. If reliability + Q modes + development holds up as rumored.

[GreenMachine]

Promises, promises ...

[BCM]

Just putting a post here so I can find the link to Renault being months ahead more easily next year, when they deliver the same rubbish next year that they have since the start of these regs.

Edited by BCM, 20 October 2017 - 05:09.

[wonk123]

Renault 'months' ahead with 2018 Formula 1 engine reliability work

 

Could be an interesting season next year. If reliability + Q modes + development holds up as rumored.

 

They have said something similar every year, only to let us down. I have more faith in Honda, which is very sad 

[RPM40]

Renault are getting closer, just nibbling at it not in huge leaps or bounds or anything.

[pryanjack]

I guess we’ll see if those new engine developments make a difference today

[kevinracefan]

20 more horses and this car would be a world beater..

[FullOppositeLock]

I think there’s a decent case to be made for the argument that the Red Bull chassis is currently best of breed going in the last three races. Our boys are now qualifying close to or within the Mercedes and Ferrari “magic” qualifying mode treshold, and on pure race pace only Lewis seems a match, although to what extent he had performance in hand yesterday is up for debate.

Red Bull Racing was well down on Ferrari and Mercedes at the start of the season but have delivered on their promise of being able to deliver a title challenging car in the end. Now all that’s needed is for Renault to pull their socks up, in terms of performance AND reliability. If they can find a few tenths on race performance, some form of reliability and and a qualifying mode worth a further few tenths we may be in business for 2018. Looking forward to how this develops, not least to see if McLaren can get involved and if Renault can start to catch up on the chassis side as well. The front of the grid and the title(s) race may be a lot more competitive come this time next year.

[kevinracefan]

OK.. I've been hoping to read an article pointing out what's changed on this car.. what's been found since summer break..

 

trap speeds unusually high, yet plenty of grip..

 

clearly knocked a lot of drag off, but still has grip..

 

 

???   ???   ???

[Grundle]

OK.. I've been hoping to read an article pointing out what's changed on this car.. what's been found since summer break..

trap speeds unusually high, yet plenty of grip..

clearly knocked a lot of drag off, but still has grip..


??? ??? ???

I know Renault said they detined the engine a lot less than merc or fezza and it cost them in reliability, because of the altitude in Mexico.

[Requiem84]

RB generally is doing abot better than the other Renault teams in the speed traps right?

Interesting that their low drag concept now is starting to pay off.

[V8 Fireworks]

No one will ever catch Mercedes within the current Engine Rules. 

 

Thankfully, Red Bull got their act together and are mixing it up on the front. I only hoped they would've done that at the start of the season as well.

 

The same applies for aerodyanmics.  The current flat floor rules go back to '83 and stepped floor rules back to '95 (IIRC?).  A lot of the rules about bodywork areas in relation to the wheels have been around for a long time, and bodged on top of other rules in the case of vanity panels and things like that.

 

We need full resets on both power unit and aerodynamic regulations. 

 

 

Interesting that their low drag concept now is starting to pay off.

 

Ahem, see above.

 

It's nice that Red Bull can throw lots of money and resources at the problem, but I don't think iterative aero rules OR iterative power unit rules are good for F1

 

Why should Red Bull be able to carry their aero development into next season, just as why should Mercedes be able to carry their power unit advantage across seasons.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 03 November 2017 - 19:29.

[Maxioos]

What was RBR reaction on new motor proposals? 

 

Would it be enough for Aston Martin to supply? And how risky would a new supplier be?

 

And the 2 years in between than, Honda or Renault?

 

Knowing how fast the (f1) world changes, would it be as difficult to join in 2019 as it was for Honda couple of years back? And what part of new proposals would make new entry in 2021 that easier?

[V8 Fireworks]

OK.. I've been hoping to read an article pointing out what's changed on this car.. what's been found since summer break..

 

trap speeds unusually high, yet plenty of grip..

 

clearly knocked a lot of drag off, but still has grip..

 

 

???   ???   ???

 

You suppose Red Bull are doing something a bit borderline "cheaty" with their ride heights?  That would not surprise me. 

[Ivanhoe]

You suppose Red Bull are doing something a bit borderline "cheaty" with their ride heights?  That would not surprise me. 

Nah, all three top teams are on top of that, I'm sure there would have been a complaint by either Ferrari or Mercedes if there would be something suspicious about Red Bull flattening its rake angle on the straights.

[ferrarista]

http://www.f1analisi...-da-vettel.html

 

Mercedes think the improvement in performance may be due to an evolution of the hydraulic suspension that was banned in the winter

[kevinracefan]

You suppose Red Bull are doing something a bit borderline "cheaty" with their ride heights?  That would not surprise me. 

NOPE..

 

Max said in interview at SEMA that Exxon had made a step in the fuel and lubricant, tho

[Ivanhoe]

NOPE..

Max said in interview at SEMA that Exxon had made a step in the fuel and lubricant, tho

Yep, said it brought more than the Renault upgrades. Says enough really.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 05 November 2017 - 15:05.

[Shade]

Honest question, why do you guys think Red Bull was off the pace today? Are Renault running detuned engines?

[SBR]

Honest question, why do you guys think Red Bull was off the pace today? Are Renault running detuned engines?

Don't think it was the engine. Both drivers complained about the set up and the cold weather didn't really help either with getting the tires to work.

[enjoyingRBR]

Quote:

However, Renault have a contract with F1 which obliges them to supply an engine to Red Bull if asked to do so, which effectively leaves Red Bull with a choice of Renault or Honda engines for the 2019 season.

Dont know if posted before

This i read on bbc site today.
http://m.bbc.com/spo...rmula1/41955290

Didnt know that... looks a bit more hopefull for 2019.

Edited by enjoyingRBR, 11 November 2017 - 19:48.

[RiccardoPatrese]

Honest question, why do you guys think Red Bull was off the pace today? Are Renault running detuned engines?

“I looked at the GPS data and we’re definitely missing half a second on the straights – and that’s the gap,” Verstappen said after qualifying.

[Requiem84]

“I looked at the GPS data and we’re definitely missing half a second on the straights – and that’s the gap,” Verstappen said after qualifying.

 

It's still a bit weird though: in the previous races the RB13 was winning time in the corners. At this track, the RB13 chassis is equal with Ferrari / Merc in the corners.

 

So there must be something more to it. 

[Kao18]

Honest question, why do you guys think Red Bull was off the pace today? Are Renault running detuned engines?

Would not be surprised either that or RB detuning the engines somewhat themselves knowing Renault are no longer able to provide new parts.

[RiccardoPatrese]

Would not be surprised either that or RB detuning the engines somewhat themselves knowing Renault are no longer able to provide new parts.

'@Max33Verstappen is on the edge in reliability terms - RBR found a cracked MGU-H last night so went back to an older one that's done a lot of miles and had in effect been 'retired'... His laps were restricted in FP3

[FullOppositeLock]

Quote:

However, Renault have a contract with F1 which obliges them to supply an engine to Red Bull if asked to do so, which effectively leaves Red Bull with a choice of Renault or Honda engines for the 2019 season.

Dont know if posted before

This i read on bbc site today.
http://m.bbc.com/spo...rmula1/41955290

Didnt know that... looks a bit more hopefull for 2019.

This has been common knowledge for a long time - a contract between FIA (?) and Renault I believe, dating back from Bernie’s days. Some English Daily Mail (?) journalist massively jumped the gun about Renault not supplying Red Bull and the world media followed suit. To my knowledge Renault have never publicly claimed it was going to happen either.

[Quickshifter]

Cyril Abiteboul has clearly and repeatedly said that they have a contract with Red Bull till 2018 and when asked if they would supply in 2019 he was totally non committal. Even if we assume for Argument sake if somehow Renault agree to supply Red Bull in 2019 how fruitful the association will be in light of the tensions shared by the two partners and throw in Renault's apprehension about engine data in light of Redbull junior team-Toro Rosso being supplied by Honda.

[V8 Fireworks]

Cyril Abiteboul has clearly and repeatedly said that they have a contract with Red Bull till 2018 and when asked if they would supply in 2019 he was totally non committal. Even if we assume for Argument sake if somehow Renault agree to supply Red Bull in 2019 how fruitful the association will be in light of the tensions shared by the two partners and throw in Renault's apprehension about engine data in light of Redbull junior team-Toro Rosso being supplied by Honda.

 

Yes, Renault are right to furious at Red Bull's poor ethics.  Renaultsport have been so superb and RBR have been so vile, so vulgar.  Even Max saying "Renault costs us 0.5sec" to the press --- disgraceful, unsporting, totally unacceptable poisoning of relations. 

 

A Red Bull-Honda combination cannot come soon enough. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 November 2017 - 01:46.

[Requiem84]

Yes, Renault are right to furious at Red Bull's poor ethics. Renaultsport have been so superb and RBR have been so vile, so vulgar. Even Max saying "Renault costs us 0.5sec" to the press --- disgraceful, unsporting, totally unacceptable poisoning of relations.

A Red Bull-Honda combination cannot come soon enough.

Not sure if serious ;-).

RB has gone into detail many times how much the dngibe is costing them. Last season they said the same at Baku, where HM stated that they were losing 1 sec on the straights.

Nobody really cared back then.

[technicalformula1]

Front wing comparison - development one for 2018 vs standard edition: https://twitter.com/...512169210793986