18 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

Was mentioned on Speedvision that next year along with Power stering being banned, brakes will get the rub out.


Can you brake a modern F1 car at max without servos and assist?

[Rene]

I was under the impression that power steering and brakes were out as of this race....anyone know for sure??

[imaginesix]

Yes, I thought they said both were banned from now on.

BTW Ross, you get my vote for best avatar by far. I can sit and watch that little guy forever

And Rene: I'm also wondering if you have a large copy file of that FIA logo? I want to get a sticker made but I can't find any good pics to use.

[random]

I believe SpeedVision got it somewhat wrong. Power brakes have been forbidden as of this weekend, however power steering has been given a reprieve until the end of the season.

I can only imagine that the teams sucessfully argued that the 2001 cars were designed with power steer in mind and that simply removing it was not feasible. Possibly requiring a redesign of the steering system.

I also think the teams want to give the drivers a chance to build up their pecs a bit.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its kinda like a baby michelin man


at any rate, I would think non-power assisted brakes would be almost impossible to operate

[unrepentant lurker]

Well, Button doesn't have power steering yet. It seems he threw his shoulder out pretty badly. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. Apparently, that's how bad the Benneton is.

BTW, I thought one of the Mac drivers said last year at Hungary about how nice it was to have power steering. Does anyone remember that?

It seems the transition will be less drastic for some of the teams.

[random]

Non-Power assisted brakes work fine, especially for small vehicles like F1 cars. You're using the hydraulics to do most of the work, just like on a street car.

Check out www.howthingswork.com , I'm sure they've got something on brakes.

[Schummy]

I can't the direct rationale after banning power braking/steering. After all, it exists in road cars and just relieve the physical strenght for the driver (BTW, I hate these drivers became wannabe-athletes, instead of finesse of driving). Maybe is something about the possible fear about policying cheating with electronic assisted braking/steering?? Can someone elaborate on this?

In an ideal word (of mine) I would allow power steering/braking (without electronic inputs), and I would forbid electronic going out of the engine system y and no sensors at all. It would be for a Driver WC in F1, but I'd go for a tech ruling in sportscar for a real high tech Car WC.

I think more and more high tech expertise conspire against pure driving skill. In 50s-60s it was ok to have tech in F1... when that tech was naive, but in no long time time we will have the capability to make cars virtually without human input. I suppose that in that time we all agreed road cars are more advanced than F1 cars or we will have to stop doing the WDC in the current form.

Perhaps we are reaching the epoch in that we will have a fork: a high tech racing style and a drivers racing type? In athletics and, above all, in cyclism they have had to make a clear ruling about it. Partially, in motorbike racing they have already chosen the no-too-tech route for the main rider WCs: FIM and SBK.

[PDA]

Power steering - it is possible to use telemetry inputs to moderate the driver's response to yaw, hence taking responsibility for steering (partly) away from the driver. This is done in high quality road cars already. Removing power steering prevents this type of system being installed.

Power brakes - again, they can be used for TC systems by applying brake effort on one side only, and also in anti yaw systems. This is also used on current road cars. The same process can also be used to slow the inside wheel in a corner, helping the car to turn (viz. the McLaren "third pedal" brake system two years ago) F1 rules do not allow rear wheel steering. Removing power braking prevents such systems being installed.

[Schummy]

Thank you, PDA, it seems like Grand Prix 3 driver aids, as a way of ease the casual gamer driving experience.

I wonder, though, if power braking/steering could be allowed but banning any electronic signal going to the system or any system put any active torque in the steering. Would it be easy to police? Sorry if the question is absurd.

Now a bit of personal view about F1 and physical requeriments ;)
I'm worried about physical strength required by modern F1. I think some talented drivers can be pushed out of F1 because they never will do 4 hours of physical training, and the thing is a bit biased about strong drivers more than talented, precise, fast-minded drivers (some names came to my mind). Yes, it is a bit exaggerated but you get the point.

I remember years ago when the cockpit size was ridiculously small and some valuable drivers had to go to the sportscar/touring route, and some went to F1 but in a handicapped way. I remember Gerhard Berger joking about one day drivers will have to cut one leg to fit well in the car Also the body weigth was an issue when minimum weigth rule applied just to the car (if I remember rigthly)

[moog101]

My mini has no power assisted brakes, no servo of any kind. Given that it weighs more than an F1 car I'd say there would be no problems whatsoever.

[PDA]

The strength required to steer your mini at the limit are miniscule compared with an open wheel race car. This is particularly true in high speed corners, where the massive downforce loads up the steering enormously.

[dolomite]

Power assisted brakes were banned several years ago.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah but it takes more force to stop the car quicker. Imagine trying to generate 5g's

[palmas]

Next they will be having no engine power (pilots will pedal, cycling style).

Any way if they do not change front suspension geometry, F1 will go only strait ahead!.

About brakes, if you have hidraulics, then it is easy to convert pedal travel into force (energy is mantained), so what you will have is longer brake pedal travel, and it will be easier to modulate braking, even if it will take a fraction more time to start braking. The issue is you cannot use electrical brakes.

[moog101]

Originally posted by PDA
The strength required to steer your mini at the limit are miniscule compared with an open wheel race car. This is particularly true in high speed corners, where the massive downforce loads up the steering enormously.

Not disputed, but I am talking brakes. The force required is all a funtion of bore sizes of the brake lines.

Pffff ;)

Anyway, there are teams with no power steering either

[Top Fuel F1]

Re: FIA 2001 Tech. Rules

1. Article 10.4.2 Allows power assisted steering.

2. Article 11.5.1 Essentially says no power brakes: No braking system may be designed to increase the pressure in the caliper above what the driver can exert on his own, etc.

Rgds;

[PDA]

Moog - Sorry, should have read your post more carefully. However, I used to rally a Mini back in the old days, and with race pads (I forget the designation now - VG95 ?, they had a lot of copper in them) the pressure required went up a lot. I don;t know what pedal pressure is needed in F1 these days, but I did read a comment by, I think, HHF, in which he said he had to press the brake pedal with all pressure possible, and he wished he could get two feet on the pedal. I think it was in F1 Racing, but not sure. Now given a bit of poetic license for HHF's dry wit, we are still left with pretty high pedal pressures. Probably nade worse because most drivers won;t want very much pedal movement (unlike the Mini, which was like stepping on a pudding)

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Top Fuel F1
Re: FIA 2001 Tech. Rules

1. Article 10.4.2 Allows power assisted steering.

2. Article 11.5.1 Essentially says no power brakes: No braking system may be designed to increase the pressure in the caliper above what the driver can exert on his own, etc.

Rgds;

Regarding brakes: It is my understanding that what was banned as of Spain is electric motors turning the brake balance bar to adjust front/rear brake balance. I suppose the possibility was there (currently used or not) to dynamically control the balance by computer, based on speed and/or even suspension dive. Now the driver must control balance bar by turning a mechanically linked knob like they did in the past.