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#101 Owen

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:22

Milton Keynes would seem a likely destination.



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#102 Owen

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:56

For a chance to attend the launch - get to the McLaren twitter account. 32 places up for grabs.



#103 rabbitleader

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 13:23

So the new colours of grey, red and white and is to deliberately confuse McLaren with the Haas team. Not distinctive enough in my opinion.

Edited by rabbitleader, 23 January 2017 - 13:23.


#104 Owen

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 13:53

So the new colours of grey, red and white and is to deliberately confuse McLaren with the Haas team. Not distinctive enough in my opinion.

We haven't seen the new colours yet.



#105 Marklar

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 14:49

Ericspeak is real

Alan Baldwin‏ @alanbaldwinf1
Is @eboullier a Trekkie? Quotes in latest McLaren press release: "to rapidly model...to dynamically explore...to radically cut." #toboldlygo

#106 CPR

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 14:53

http://www.mclaren.c...ing-f1-1111156/
 

McLaren Racing and Stratasys are delighted to announce a new four-year partnership under which Stratasys will supply McLaren Racing with a suite of 3D printing and additive manufacturing solutions, as the Official Supplier of 3D Printing Solutions to the McLaren-Honda Formula 1 team.


This sort of thing, for anyone curious:
http://www.stratasys...yjet-technology
http://www.stratasys.../fdm-technology
 

This would probably be used both for prototype parts and real racing parts, depending upon the application.



#107 DRSwing

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 14:56

Interview with Zak;
http://www.autocar.c...e-changer-brand


I like how enthusiastic Zak Brown is about the team. He is just what the team needs, at least from the commercial side.

Belated thanks to Owen for sharing your experience at MTC last week. Sounds like you had a smashing time.

I hope you win the golden ticket too!

#108 Owen

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 16:04

I like how enthusiastic Zak Brown is about the team. He is just what the team needs, at least from the commercial side.

Belated thanks to Owen for sharing your experience at MTC last week. Sounds like you had a smashing time.

I hope you win the golden ticket too!

You're very kind. Remember Zak saying 'I'm as excited to see the new car as you all are!' totally believed it too.



#109 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 16:31

I just revisited MP4-30 threads again. Those were the days.  :)  I am glad there is no crystal ball.


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 23 January 2017 - 16:37.


#110 muramasa

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 17:48

 

================================
 
bought recent edition of magazine called Motor Fan last weekend
it's really intriguing

 

here's excerpt, it's paid contents so can only provide rough summary, if there's anything unclear I'll clarify

 

in the magazine, pics of the identical display PU are used for analysis and explanation, so here I use mine (watermarked ones)
I read somewhere that display PU is consisted of actual components only, no fake parts

 

 

 

 

 

---------------
 
talking with Honda's chief researchers of PU R&D

 

 

 

(on exhaust manifold evolution)

 

- At first adopted log style exhaust manifold to prioritize aero
- that way you cannot use exhaust pulse effectively so discussed with mclaren and switched to conventional equal length manifold in order to increase power
- equal length is what manifold/engine should be, making pipe length equal and optimizing/matching its tuning (length, diameter etc) is essential for max performance
- switched to equal length from log in late 2015, further tunings applied for 2016 PU
- worked with mclaren to decide the manifold arrangement (shape, volume etc)
 

 

(on exhaust pipe heat shield)
- for 2015, all 3 manifolds were wrapped in a single bag
- for 2016, each manifold wrapped separately
- former is easier to make, latter is better in preserving heat, controlling reliability, internal aero
- weight reduction of manifold introduced at Malaysia was done by making the whole manifold thinner (in recent f1-stinger site interview, Hasegawa said it was 1kg btw)

 

 

- exhaust is closely related each other with combustion, so as ICE gets modification, exhaust tuning/modification is necessary as well.

 

 

 

 

(on waste gate)
- 2016 rule states that you have to separate waste gate exhaust from main exhaust, with either single pipe or dual. You can make the cross section area smaller for 1 pipe option.
- reason for the shape/config of waste gate pipes:  to avoid interfering monkey seat
- 2 actuator valves (one for the left one for right), oil pressure
- waste gate is important in various factors incl weight reduction, therefore intend to unify/integrate for future PU. Size itself gets bigger by making it mono-valve, but vision for weight reduction is clear. One key subject is positioning/config,  how to converge the exhaust pressure coming from right bank and left bank and then discharge it.

 

(same as last year's so nothing new, also easy to spot with any pics but just for explanation) 
32375812871_2ed51e05b0_o.png

 

 

 

 

 

(inlet plenum and intake pipes)
- raised the height of plenum chamber (from 15 to 16) itself is not due to the bigger turbine&compressor but due to the whole intake system packaging requirement. You need certain length for intake pipes between variable induction system (variable length trumpet) and cylinder head. Smooth air into combustion chamber is key, the straighter the intake duct is the better.
So, raised inlet chamber because you wanted to minimize the bend of inlet duct, not because you had to house the bigger compressor and turbine in the V.
- At the development stage the chamber was lower than that (spec 1.0, the display PU), but wanted to get rid of the drift (uneven airflow in the inlet duct), so discussed with mclaren to get bit more space available. As a result, it's got 30mm higher (than the prototype)

 

 

RA615H
32483620755_4845914b34_o.jpg

 

RA616H

31672182823_7f80f7f8ec_o.png

 

 

 

 

btw this is pop off valve

32497368685_50d066bc88_o.png

31654095594_772cfc1845_o.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(MGU-H and turbo)

 

- Honda's impression is that the deficit in the amount of recovery energy by MGU-H against rivals in 2015 was like 20-30%.
- motor itself hasn't changed, but modified turbine and compressor for 2016 (Nakamura and Hasegawa said this in March-May already, that they did use token for MGU-H for 2016 but not on motor itself but on something reliability related)

 

► Making turbine bigger means that you need more (exhaust) power to spin the enlarged turbine. It gets heavier too, plus you have more exhaust loss. Thus simply making it bigger does not work. More elaboration on exhaust flow is necessary, and shape of turbine blade is essential too. Engine being more efficient means less energy dumped at exhaust gas. There, you need more efficient turbine. Therefore every time we make changes to combustion concept, we update/modify turbine as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

(on inlet upgrade for spec 2.0 / silverstone update)
- worked this time on straightening VIS (variable induction system, = variable length trumpet), same as straightening inlet duct for spec 1.0
- trumpet of spec 1.0 (as well as 2015) was bent 90 degree to be placed horizontally in the chamber
- for spec 2.0, it was modified to be "X" config, for smoother airflow just same as intake duct

 

 

(dont know how to put it so here it is, hope it makes sense; the first diagram is top view and the second one front view)

32344784142_9d0fb1f4b8_o.jpg

 

 

 

spec 1.0

upmacc51.jpg

another pics of spec 1.0 PU
https://pbs.twimg.co...AAt6GC.jpg:orig

 

 

 

This is spec 2.0 inlet plenum, notice the spread-out and exposed intake pipes, and from the shape you can imagine "X" config of variable length trumpet in the airbox (I thought that was due to even bigger turbo but it was not)
CuAwzctXgAYO1si.jpg

another pic of spec 2.0

http://encdn.f1i.com...m-spa_Honda.jpg

 

 

 

► to balance it out with the modified VIS, the whole intake system got modified too

 

 

- VIS is activated by oil pressure actuator, but in 2015 the trouble of adhered trumpet happened frequently. For 2016 we modified the concept of motion structure. Reliability saw decent improvement but still was not enough.
- You may think that adhered VIS is just a fixed length trumpet but that's not the case, the effect is fatal.
- coz engine rpm and VIS has to be 1 on 1 relationship, so if trumpet got stuck, manifold length does not change while rpm changes, which affects/disturbs the state of combustion. It even causes knocking and can destroy engine.
- After the introduction of spec 2.0, the problem has almost gone

 

 

 

► spec 3.0 was the biggest upgrade of 2016. Overhaul in combustion concept - piston, valve, camshaft, injector, cylinder head, and so on and on. As mentioned above, "any changes to combustion entails modification to turbo", so spec 3.0 involved modification to turbo (turbine and compressor) as well
 

 

 

 

 

 

(fuel supply / combustion concept)

 

- 2015 PU:  axial piston pump located inside the V,  side injection
- 2016 PU:  camdrive pump (max 500bar, Bosch),  top injection

 

► That (switch of fuel injection method which was drastic change) was where the development for 2016 unit started from. Worked on improvement of combustion efficiency on it, and the completed version was spec 3.0
► Placing injector on top means it's closer to ignition plug which makes heating issue more severe. Decided the position by a lot of trial and error and simulating.

32483627315_66d3e64a2f_o.png

difficult to see the fuel rail in that pic, or most pics as the rail is behind cables, but it's easy to notice if you see it in person

compressor is behind the fuel pump, between 1st and 2nd intake pipes (or the front one and the middle one)

(btw I tried to see if there's any pic of 2015 PU that captured the fuel pump inside V but cannot find)

 

this is compressor and intake pipe (the black carbon tube, vertical one on the left, in front of compressor)

29524491784_6e28ccd7f6_o.jpg

 

 

► it's impossible to surpass rivals with mere extension of current combustion concept. You need to incorporate something new, atm we are in the middle of working out the very new thing(s).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------------
----------------
 

Talking with tech chiefs at Sakura R&D

 

 

- MGU-H recovery is proportional to exhaust pressure
- ICE power is inversely proportional to exhaust pressure

 

► Therefore simply increasing ICE performance isn't how it is, but searching the PUmax point (ICE + MGU-H) within the 100kg/h fuel flow restriction is essential in development as well as setting, as it differs depending on track characteristics, and race and quali

► you may think running PU at PUmax point always is what you should do, but it's not simple as that

► If consider how to use energy as effective as possible, to store it as electricity to use it as deployment later is more beneficial to reducing laptime. So depending on tracks and corners, sometimes you prioritize recovery

 

 

 

 

(telemetry graph from Austria GP race over a lap is given)

 

- Make MGU-K recovery, not assist, during the partial throttle period of acceleration phase at T2 (during race)
►At most of the tracks MGU-K cannot make full 2MJ recovery by braking alone

► In terms of energy efficiency over a lap, there are occasions where it's better to sacrifice ICE fuel efficiency and store electric energy at certain points to deploy later

- In austria race, there are 2 spots where deployment runs out: at the end of home straight just before T1 and straight b/w T7 and T8 or just before T8.

► In 2015 deployment was running out at much earlier point.
► If you reduce the output level of MGU-K assist it's still possible to deploy for the whole straight, but making full 120kW deployment for shorter period is more beneficial than less output deployment for full distance / longer period in reducing lap time .

 

- No MGU-K deployment at all at short section between T8 and T9

► effect of MGU-K assist to laptime is small in this section, so save the electricity for later, more effective use

- direct path (send electricity from MGU-H to MGU-K directly) is not being done, because MGU-H output is lower than MGU-K power hence benefit of direct path is too small

►The best way of power is "thick and long" needless to say, but if compare "thin and long" and "thick and short", the latter is more effective in reducing laptime. Therefore store the energy generated at MGU-H to ES first, then use it later to make full 120kW assist by MGU-K.
 

 

 

 

(telemetry graph from Austria GP Quali over a lap is given)

 

- in Quali you don't need to care about fuel consumption so use ICE on rich side or near/to the side of ICE's Pmax point rather than strictly lean or most efficient point
- At Austria Quali, MGU-H is used as turbo boost to turn compressor for most of 1st half of the track, while for the 2nd half it regenerates as usual mostly.

 

 

► what sort of allocation of function (either turbo boost or regenerate on which section) is the most effective varies depending on track characteristics, and is worked out and finalized by a lot of simulation
► At Belgium for instance, turbo boost assist at Kemmel and Blanchimont is the most effective way. At corner sections in the middle part of the track MGU-H is not used as electric booster.

 

 

(there are 2-3 versions of corner numbering for red bull ring, so here it's this version, S2 post between T5 and T6, Rindt=T8, and T9 as final corner)

Circuit_RedBullRinge.png

https://www.formula1...67200454536.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---------------------

---------------------
Hasegawa interview article (dotted parts for quotes)

 

joined Honda in 1986
in charge of control system for accord, legend and NSX etc, like designing sensors
control system for low emission vehicle of USA standard
in CART era in 90s: engineer of engine control system

in 00s F1:
engineer in control system
Tochigi at first
2003 JV's chief engineer
2004 Sato's chief engineer
after that chief engineer managing both test and race team

 

 

 

  • Regarding certain technologies, I sometimes get asked "Mercedes is doing it, but isn't Honda going to do it too?", but what you need to do first is to examine it and make sure that the technology is suited to the concept of our engine. Before anything else, you have to bring things to the level where we can race properly. To bring engines to GP venues is the priority. At the same time, you've got to catch up quickly. How to manage to achieve both, that's what you have to think of.
  • How to fight against and beat current immediate rivals with the engine at hand, that's what you have to do at GP venue. On the other hand  you have to conduct development towards 6 months later, 1 year later as well. Short term subject of what you do in this week, and R&D to recover the bit that's behind, we are working on both in parallel.

 

  • I don't think the config of turbine and compressor inside the V is negative factor. It's just that we were not able to optimize it. This year's PU still has them inside V, but we are able to make good regeneration now, so that's not where the problem lies.
  • I think Mercedes and Ferrari are doing HCCI, I'm hearing Renault is doing it too, so they must be doing it as well. We as well regard it as one of very effective items. I cannot disclose what we are doing to what extent right now, but of course we are doing lean burn boost. Since fuel flow is restricted, lean burn is indispensable for improving fuel consumption and increasing the power. I think it's one of effective methods in order to raise heat capacity ratio, also it's one of crucial technologies in F1.

 

 

 

 

-----

-----
(on conrod design topic)

- Fortunately, through the experience of breaking so many F1 engines in 00s, the simulation has progressed a lot. Brought that to production vehicle development and matured it further there, then using it for F1 now. Now it's possible to see distribution of stress, temp etc clearly. The system of simulating hundreds of patterns and selecting best spec out of them is established. So we haven't caused any particular problem there (engineer of Sakura)


Edited by muramasa, 19 February 2017 - 01:02.


#111 Joseki

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 19:15

I just revisited MP4-30 threads again. Those were the days.  :)  I am glad there is no crystal ball.

 

Say what you want about the times but I couldn't remember a more hyped and discussed car during testing. Every online site was flooded of posts about the new McLaren Honda.


Edited by Joseki, 23 January 2017 - 19:29.


#112 LookButDontStare

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 19:26

Thanks for the article Muramasa

#113 Maustinsj

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 20:02

New partnership:

 

http://www.mclaren.c...ing-f1-1111156/

 

3D printed monocoques perchance????   ;)



#114 pizzalover

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 20:12

Ericspeak is real

Alan Baldwin‏ @alanbaldwinf1
Is @eboullier a Trekkie? Quotes in latest McLaren press release: "to rapidly model...to dynamically explore...to radically cut." #toboldlygo

 

It's call hyperboul.

 

Or boulsh*t.


Edited by pizzalover, 23 January 2017 - 23:52.


#115 Alonsofan007

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 02:27

since its paid content its too much to ask for telemetry graphs i guess :p thanks muramasa for the effort anyway.


Edited by Alonsofan007, 24 January 2017 - 02:27.


#116 PARAZAR

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 08:22

At what time's the launch?



#117 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 08:31

At what time's the launch?

24th Feb. Time still is an unknown.



#118 PARAZAR

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 08:37

24th Feb. Time still is an unknown.

 

24th Feb. Time still is an unknown.

Oh February. Ok.  :cat:



#119 Marklar

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 09:00

24th Feb. Time still is an unknown.

Based on the countdown it is 10 GMT

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#120 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 09:04

Based on the countdown it is 10 GMT

Well done. I had forgotten that one  :up:


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 24 January 2017 - 09:04.


#121 FirstWatt

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 09:06

bought recent edition of magazine called Motor Fan last weekend
it's really intriguing
 
here's excerpt, [...]

muramasa, this is one hell of a post. Can't think of many containing so much interesting hints.
Honda seems very open wrt what they are doing!!

#122 Treads

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 15:53

muramasa, this is one hell of a post. Can't think of many containing so much interesting hints.
Honda seems very open wrt what they are doing!!


Seconded. Muramasa, the information you bring to this forum is second to none. Thanks! Fascinating stuff!

#123 balmybaldwin

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 17:24

 

================================

 

Great info thanks Murmasa.

 

I don't suppose you could post those 2 telemetry graphs could you? they sound very interesting :clap:


Edited by balmybaldwin, 24 January 2017 - 17:24.


#124 latouse66

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 17:39

There is nothing wrong with Orange as long as it somewhat limited and not everything is Orange  ;)



#125 maguetox

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 20:05

https://pbs.twimg.co...PIUWEAIueLk.jpg

 

Castrol logo on McLaren Tshirt



#126 Owen

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 21:17

Chandon just tweeted an F1 car going round an orange planet. What could it mean?

#127 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 21:23

Chandon just tweeted an F1 car going round an orange planet. What could it mean?

That means Ron is furious.



#128 Marklar

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 21:43

Chandon just tweeted an F1 car going round an orange planet. What could it mean?

I cant wait for the outrage in a month when it turns out that they've been trolling us all the time  :lol:



#129 CPR

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 22:15

It's that time of year again I guess....

 

Not the first time there's been such rumours (2015 says hello):

 

tumblr_nhpszlo4Tb1rb2fzoo1_1280.jpg



#130 keshav

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 02:37

The Castrol logo is so small? Damn :(

#131 Alonsofan007

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 03:41

It's that time of year again I guess....

 

Not the first time there's been such rumours (2015 says hello):

 

 

lol ....i see their plan...paint it to look like ForceIndia and claim 4th place if not competitive  :rotfl: 



#132 Muzzyf1

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 05:04

The Castrol logo is so small? Damn :(




Same as esso last year

#133 Music Lover

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 08:21

 

================================
 
bought recent edition of magazine called Motor Fan last weekend
it's really intriguing

 

here's excerpt, it's paid contents so can only provide rough summary, if there's anything unclear I'll clarify

 

THANKS muramasa!!

 

A great post, thanks for the effort writing the summary  :clap:

 

 

However

Reading this, it's quite obvious that Honda is a good step behind the other engine manufacturers.



#134 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 09:03

Agree. It's like they are saying "we know what we are trying to do, but we can't quite do it".



#135 aray

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 09:11

Yup,i too get the vibe that they will be worst of the four again,with reduced performance gap...



#136 Sebastien007

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:04

McLaren F1 team now 'more agile' with development, Boullier feels

 

http://www.autosport...ith-development



#137 FirstWatt

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 12:52

I have somehow lost track of what really happened with Jost Capito. Is he now really gone? Can't seem to find any official information.

#138 Pumpkinz

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 12:54

He is still listed on the Staff Page.

http://www.mclaren.c...eam/management/

 

Edit:

For those wondering about Zak Brown, he is listed on the McLaren Technology Group section:

http://www.mclaren.c...p/about/people/


Edited by Pumpkinz, 25 January 2017 - 13:49.


#139 CPR

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 13:38

I can't find anything official about him leaving. If the press reports from about a month were correct then you'd think there'd be something official by now. So I'd suggest treating those reports as rumour.

 

According to his LinkedIn page he's still at McLaren.



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#140 RPM40

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 13:44

The orange will be a very minimal aspect of the livery I bet.



#141 blacky

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 13:48

McLaren F1 team now 'more agile' with development, Boullier feels

 

http://www.autosport...ith-development

 

I can't say how much I hate this guy. He achieved nothing since he joined, but always big words for the press. Reading his statements in the press once get the feeling that McLaren was a backmarker and completely lost before he joined and "repaired" the structures. Thankfully the great Eric joined the team and shows since then how to be successfull. :lol:



#142 shonguiz

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 13:49

There was an official confirmation of capito's departure.

Edited by shonguiz, 25 January 2017 - 13:50.


#143 CPR

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 13:57

There was an official confirmation of capito's departure.

 

Not that I can find. McLaren's official response to reports on him leaving was "no comment".



#144 Kristian

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 14:32

The orange will be a very minimal aspect of the livery I bet.

 

Yeah, like the race numbers being in orange and that's it. 



#145 Alonsofan007

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 15:26

   

 

.@eboullier: "After a lot of hard work, I want to say thanks to those who helped us pass the @fia's crash tests. Now to get it painted...!" :up:



#146 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 15:43

Almost all the teams passes crash tests on their fist attempt. Maybe there is something wrong with FIA's facilities or really there isn't enough time to push the boundaries still and there are planned upgrades for the first coming races.



#147 Marklar

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 15:51

Almost all the teams passes crash tests on their fist attempt. Maybe there is something wrong with FIA's facilities or really there isn't enough time to push the boundaries still and there are planned upgrades for the first coming races.

Then again just 5 teams have announced that they passed the crash test so far.

 

Last year at this time everyone except of Sauber (delayed), McLaren (I think) and Red Bull already passed the crash test and testing start was on a similar date as this year.


Edited by Marklar, 25 January 2017 - 15:53.


#148 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 16:29

Then again just 5 teams have announced that they passed the crash test so far.

 

Last year at this time everyone except of Sauber (delayed), McLaren (I think) and Red Bull already passed the crash test and testing start was on a similar date as this year.

To be honest I was expecting some crash test headaches for teams (Specially for bigger teams because of having money and facilities to push the boundaries) for the 2017 season considering that the chassis rules are new.



#149 Joseki

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 17:43

To be honest I was expecting some crash test headaches for teams (Specially for bigger teams because of having money and facilities to push the boundaries) for the 2017 season considering that the chassis rules are new.

 

Being the nose 20 cm longer now the crash tests are much easier.



#150 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 21:45

Being the nose 20 cm longer now the crash tests are much easier.

I am not sure but I think thanks to the longer (or wider) delta wing, the overall weight of the front crash structure (without front wing) could be even more lighter (thanks to stronger front wing), so it should be tricky again to pass the crash tests.


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 25 January 2017 - 21:53.