40 replies to this topic

[matherto]

I'm a product of 1990's F1 fandom.

Born in 1990, I remember getting a model of Mansell's FW14B that I treasured more than anything as a very, very young child.

I have vague memories of watching the later rounds of 1993 but my first full season was 1994. Morbid curiosity and the fact it was my first season means that remains my favourite one.

The cars of the 1990's are to me, the definition of F1. If you were to ask me to draw a stereotypical car, it'd be 1990's shaped with some form of cigarette or alcohol livery. They always looked amazing, even the 1995 McLaren...honest...

Anyway, I know McLaren keep a huge selection of their old cars in storage. I know Williams have their museum and also a heritage department dedicated to getting their older cars running and maintaining them. Ferrari have the F1 Clienti program too. Honda have their collection hall with several McLaren and Williams cars.

I know there are museums like the Donington collection and the one at Mondello Park too that have a wide range of cars from that era.

BOSS series has a couple of cars too, usually Benettons like the B197 or a Jordan or two.

I was just wondering if people knew where each chassis' was for each year during the decade?

For instance, I know one of Schumacher's 1994 B194 was for sale (famously the ad included traction control) and that it was one of 8 chassis that year.

Surely they all still exist? Even the smaller teams created a few chassis a year?

I don't know of all the ones stored in museums though I have seen photos of a few Larrousse and other French cars in a museum in France and I think the Barber Motorsports Park in America has a museum with a couple of Lotus (including a 109) but where are the rest?

I'd love to get a list of each car for each year sorted. Is there anyone on here with knowledge of where a specific car might be?

 

Flickr has resulted in quite a few being in museums like the de l'Automobile in Molsheim (Schlumpf) and the Manoir collection in France, the Barber Museum in America has a few Lotus, the Sinsheim museum has a few and the Beaulieu museum has at least a 1996 Hill car (somehow managed to miss that when I went to see it recently).

Is there a clear and concise list for the subject or should I start one for each year? I know there's a Benetton thread on here to use as a reference for those cars but I'd ideally like to do it for all teams.

 

Cheers

[Seppi_0_917PA]

...Ferrari...

Check out http://www.barchetta...rmula.90.99.htm There are links to many individual chassis histories with what they have for present owners.

I agree with you that the 1990s F1 cars were beautiful, at least until the 1998 rule change.

[E1pix]

First, Welcome!

Second, my earliest race memory is when 35 months old, so beat you by a couple! ;-)

I believe two 1993 Ferraris are still owned by Brian French in Wisconsin, along with a Jordan and possibly a Benneton. RAhistorian here will know more accurate details on this.

I owned a 1971 Tyrell for a while, replete in its own glory at 1:12.

[B Squared]

You see some occasionally changing hands through high-end auction houses too.

[funformula]

@matherto
A list of the whereabouts of the F1 cars would be very interesting, but I wonder if all the current owners would like to share this information with the public. But feel free to make a list and lets see what information comes up.
Regarding the F1 cars in the Sinsheim museum, some of them are only showcars with no racing history.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

@matherto
A list of the whereabouts of the F1 cars would be very interesting, but I wonder if all the current owners would like to share this information with the public. But feel free to make a list and lets see what information comes up.
Regarding the F1 cars in the Sinsheim museum, some of them are only showcars with no racing history.

I do agree, I'd like to know too!! especially the curious oddities that appeared in the 90's, but seems to be a bit of a secretive world!! If I was lucky enough to own an old F1 or any racing car, I'd sure as hell be showing it off to all and sundry!!

I remember Goodwood 2009!! some mysterious collector brought along a LIFE L190!!! and......... powered by the same W12 engine!! restored and authentic in every detail!! Derek Bell was the Lucky Man to get to drive it that day, but I thought how amazing that was!! we all remember the great cars etc, but what of the tail end of the grid??? what happens to them???

Sadly I have never seen the Life since!! Does some mysterious soul wake up every morning, gladly knowing they have a Coloni C3B Subaru tucked away in their garage, living room or whatever?? I know Some AGS Cars did survive to the Grand Prix experience in France, Paul Ricard I think?? is it fair way to treat such machines?? I would think so!! but keep it real at least!! liveries etc!!..... but yes whoever you mysterious owners are?? speak up!!

 

BOSS for all it's merits, a great formula, but....the F1 cars or other cars for that matter??... No Dignity!! No reference to history or whatsoever!! that's what we wan't now, we wan't to see the machines and colours that we grew up with!! and thanks to social media we are reminiscing the past like never before!!

 

As a mainly touring car man, I may add that the Super Touring days are recently are going through a bit of a renaissance recently, it's been proper nostalgic to the point of that John Cleland, Patrick Watts, Gabriele Tarquini & Frank Biela were all involved at the races at some point last year!! correct to the period car and colour scheme!! Proper nostalgia!! and a testament to the people that not only saved but cherished these machines, to the point of racing them again, but the big thank you has to go to Hoosier!!! the tyre company making bespoke tyres, to keep these magnificent machines racing!!

 

As for whoever is hoarding an old F1 car in their front room??, who cares if it's a Footwork, Leyton House, Williams, AGS, Benetton, Coloni-Subaru perhaps?? maybe someone actually owns an Andrea Moda?? Wouldn't that would be a sight a Goodwood!! But..... and there is always a but.....it's normally always too late!!, we never really know what we are missing....until it's too late!!, then all we are left with are memories and pictures!!!....kids of tomorrow will be reminiscing over today's Merc's, V6 Hybrids and all!! who's gonna save them?? and could anyone afford to??

 

Save it while you can!!

[Richard Jenkins]

maybe someone actually owns an Andrea Moda??

Andrea Sassetti, the original owner of Andrea Moda still owns 2 cars.

[funformula]

maybe someone actually owns an Andrea Moda??

Andrea Sassetti, the original owner of Andrea Moda still owns 2 cars.

 

At least one of them is for sale fitted with the correct engine. Although the car is now silver instead of the black period correct livery.

[2F-001]

I know Some AGS Cars did survive to the Grand Prix experience in France, Paul Ricard I think??

I think they were based at Circuit du Var at Le Luc.

I know someone who has a Benetton - which chassis and engine I don't recall, but a Cosworth car I think - which gets 'used', though not raced, but as alluded to above, I don't know if it's my place to disclose his identity and location on the web. I think a conclusive list of such cars/owners/uses would be impossible to compile.

[Allen Brown]

I do genuinely wish you all the best with this project.  I started my mission of finding out where all the post-1966 3-litre F1 cars were in 1978, and I'm still working on it!

 

It can be done, given enough time, and it is rare for an owner to want to keep his collection a secret.  The Lotus 33 that was on display at Stoneleigh is an example; I've been keeping that secret since 1983!

[ensign14]

Does some mysterious soul wake up every morning, gladly knowing they have a Coloni C3B Subaru tucked away in their garage, living room or whatever??

 

I think that one is actually true.  Or at least close to.  I remember an article in F1 Racing Magazine about a bloke who bought a Coloni for something like £30k.  Not a racer or historic entrant or whatever, just a regular fan with some savings who fantasized about owning a Formula 1 car, and took his chance.

 

[arttidesco]

I would love to have a Subaru 1235 powered Coloni to play with a longside the W12 powered Life and Porsche V12 powered Arrows. Dream time over back to cleaning a pair of Connew wheels :-)

[Odseybod]

I'd imagine there are not as many cars around from that era as we might wish. Then as now, I think it's fairly common for the previous season's cars to be used as development hacks for the next season's innovations, even if it means hacking them about quite mercilessly (just 'yesterday's news', after all). Eventually there would come a time when they're too compromised to be of any more use, or else only suitable to be sold off as a tub to form the basis for some wacky racer/sprint-cum-hillclimb car/whatever.

 

All with the honourable exceptions noted above, of course.

 

 

 

 

[Allen Brown]

I'd imagine there are not as many cars around from that era as we might wish. Then as now, I think it's fairly common for the previous season's cars to be used as development hacks for the next season's innovations, even if it means hacking them about quite mercilessly (just 'yesterday's news', after all). Eventually there would come a time when they're too compromised to be of any more use, or else only suitable to be sold off as a tub to form the basis for some wacky racer/sprint-cum-hillclimb car/whatever.

 

All with the honourable exceptions noted above, of course.

 

Rarer than you might think for a car to be consumed in such a way.  Certainly for the 3-litre cars, it was true that they would be "written off" after major accidents, but apart from that they nearly all survived into private ownership.  

 

For the later 1990s cars, maybe that did happen because there wasn't a category that an ex-F1 car could run in, so the resale prospects were so much slimmer.  

[Odseybod]

I'm sure you're right - I was in fact thinking of 1990s cars, as I believe that's where the topic started.

 

As a side issue, the switch from metal to composite construction must presumably have some implications. I think we've discussed here before the life expectancy of (say) carbon fibre or Kevlar - from memory, I think the conclusion was that it's quite difficult to predict, with many variables (such as how it was laid up, cooked, etc). Also some uncertainty about how to tell when it's nearing the end of its useful life and what happens to it when it does - but quite possible I've 'misremembered' all this!

[arttidesco]

I'm sure you're right - I was in fact thinking of 1990s cars, as I believe that's where the topic started.

 

As a side issue, the switch from metal to composite construction must presumably have some implications. I think we've discussed here before the life expectancy of (say) carbon fibre or Kevlar - from memory, I think the conclusion was that it's quite difficult to predict, with many variables (such as how it was laid up, cooked, etc). Also some uncertainty about how to tell when it's nearing the end of its useful life and what happens to it when it does - but quite possible I've 'misremembered' all this!

 

 

One thing that struck me about Piercarlo Ghinzani's TG185 was how carbon fibre / Kevlar was back in the day touted and proved to be hugely superior to what had gone before, aluminium sandwich variations, but the mid 80's to mid 90's cars built with the new fangled black stuff look incredibly fragile in comparison with what we have today.

[funformula]

Does some mysterious soul wake up every morning, gladly knowing they have a Coloni C3B Subaru tucked away in their garage, living room or whatever??

As for whoever is hoarding an old F1 car in their front room??, who cares if it's a Footwork, Leyton House, Williams, AGS, Benetton, Coloni-Subaru perhaps??

Ahemmmm.....well.....its a Tyrrell in my case

[Paul Taylor]

It's probably worth noting that a lot of race tracks purchased 1990s F1 cars for use in driving experiences. Three Sisters own an 1993 (?) Arrows and 1996 Forti (and charge £1600 to drive them on the go-kart track!). A company called Puresport owns a 1997 Arrows A18 and you can drive that at Monza. LRS Formula owns a Prost (AP02 or AP04?), a Benetton B198, a Williams FW21, a Jaguar R2 and a Williams FW33, and these can be driven at Barcelona, Magny Cours, Hungaroring or Navarra...

 

Google around and you'll find a few more no doubt.

[Cynic2]

Bernie Ecclestone has a huge collection of F1 cars (of all eras) stored at Biggin Hill.  Good luck getting any detailed information on them, although there is someone who posts on this forum who is very familiar with the collection . . . .

[Thundersports]

This chap has some for sale.

http://www.racecarwarehouse.co.uk/

[km1164]

There are a few museums with late 1980s and 90s in them across Europe and USA.

There are a fair few private collectors of cars and some are behind closed doors and some owners do have

some running examples they have raced in BOSS or now run at Festival demo events.

There are a few more of these events to run cars in but the cars are expensive to maintain and run so you

will not see them racing so much now  as GP2 WSR cars are cheaper to buy run maintain and parts available.

 

Goodwood Members meeting last year had Turbo era cars running

Hockenheim Jim Clark meeting will have modern F1 cars running

Imola May Minardi Historic Festival

Brands August Italia Festival will have some F1 cars running.

 

There are around 5 F1 experience schools in Europe.

[chunder27]

I did work for FOM at Biggin Hill briefly a few years ago and can confirm there is a collection of Brabhams obviously, I think the odd Toleman and a few other cars there, though it was years ago so I might be mistaken you took them for granted walking past them every day.  They were stacked up in a sort of vertical stacking system on a side wall of a hangar, that also had 3 planes in it!!  I only ever saw one running.

 

I also gather in some of the buildings around the airfield there was all sorts of memorabilia, some of it to do with F1 some not!! He did own much of it after all that area!!

Edited by chunder27, 03 March 2017 - 09:04.

[PayasYouRace]

One thing that struck me about Piercarlo Ghinzani's TG185 was how carbon fibre / Kevlar was back in the day touted and proved to be hugely superior to what had gone before, aluminium sandwich variations, but the mid 80's to mid 90's cars built with the new fangled black stuff look incredibly fragile in comparison with what we have today.

That's how strong it is. It doesn't look amazingly strong compared to aluminium but it would have been an improvement over what they had before. Now we know a lot more about how to build with CF.

[TennisUK]

Here is an 'optimistically' priced Eurobrun in inauthentic livery:

http://www.pistonhea...9-f1-car/646011

And a more interesting Lotus Lamborghini:

http://www.pistonhea...95#/description

Old single seaters including F1 cars go for quite a lot less than you may anticipate. A middling Group C car like the Aston AMR1 from 1989 is probably 'worth' a lot more than both of those two cars combined.

[Peter Morley]

One of the Dutch Boss drivers (he owns a supermarket chain) has a huge collection of over 50 such cars.

 

The bigger teams tended to keep the cars or gave them to sponsors/drivers etc. - Williams have been selling off duplicate cars recently, before that they kept pretty much everything.

Teams like Jordan, Minardi, Tyrrell etc sold off (or gave them to the bailiffs!) most of the cars hence they ended up in Boss races etc.

When Benetton was bought by Renault they sold off all the old cars.

etc.

 

Many of the owners tend to have more than one of these cars - e.g. Kockney Koi had 3 Benetton B194s which he sold last year.

 

The big problem is getting the correct engines for them so most were sold without engines (and electronics), that wasn't a problem for Cosworth, Hart or Judd powered cars since you can buy engines but something like a Mugen engine is impossible (except for one that was left in a Jordan that was sold off as a rolling chassis!), Renault and Peugeot engines were a problem but as they got sold onto other companies that have since been bought out some have become available

So you are more likely to see the 'lesser' cars being used than the 'better' ones - but some have been fitted with Judd/Cosworth/Hart engines (there is a Judd powered Ferrari!) and are used occasionally.

 

Recording them all is a good idea but as Allen says it will be difficult and almost impossible to keep it completely up to date, particularly because many of the cars are sold privately and are rarely advertised or auctioned.

Having researched a few of them I can tell you that there is a lot of confusion caused by such things as T-cars which would be used in practice but not the race, however the history after F1 will be more straightforward but not as easy to find.

[FLB]

Certainly, that looks like a Coloni C4 at 1:11 and a Coloni C3 at 2:02:

 

 

Edited by FLB, 04 March 2017 - 21:10.

[Duc-Man]

I remember a Jordan 191 being raced in Interserie alongside some other modified F-1 cars in the mid/late ninties.

[Thundersports]

I remember a Jordan 191 being raced in Interserie alongside some other modified F-1 cars in the mid/late ninties.

Yes James Taylor raced one which I think was the original Schumacher chassis. It didn't end well as it caught fire in Austria sustaining a lot of damage.

[arttidesco]

 

My interest in all things effone was waning rapidly by the time the 3.5 litre engines came along in 1987 despite that, I thought the variety of engines was amazing V8's, V10's, V12s, flat 12 and W12 the formula obviously hit the sweet spot for engine builders and some of the cars looked fabulous and imho have not been equalled by anything since, with the John Barnard Ferraris and the Gary Anderson Jordans among the highlights, above Didier Sirgue in his Jordan 191 chassis number unknown.

 

For the record all I know about the 90's Benettons is posted on this link.

[Cirrus]

Jordan 197/03 sold at the Brooklands auction this weekend for an eye-watering £94,080 less engine and gearbox. The estimate was £20,000-£25,000

 

[Gary C]

and here it is, an ex-Fisichella chassis.

 

 

click on the pic for a larger image.

[matherto]

Little bump.

 

Started a spreadsheet to try and track them all in one place.

 

Any help filling it out would be appreciated. 1994 is the WIP example of what I'd like it to look like.

 

https://docs.google....t#gid=897717580

 

Cheers!

[GazChed]

Admittedly from 1989 but Steve Griffiths recently demonstrated his Lotus 101 at the Castle Combe Autumn Classic . Don't have programme to hand so don't know chassis details but maybe Tim would know .

[Supertourer]

I Believe that FORCE and some of their associates have been demo'ing cars this year.

Lorin had her Benetton at Festival Italia at Brands Hatch and I believe there was also a BMS Dallara and Coloni out. Also been at Jarama Historic with them and a Footwork. There is also a an ex-Hill Jordan that appears for demo runs that now has a JuddV10 instead of the original Honda unit (IIRC)

[Tim Murray]

Admittedly from 1989 but Steve Griffiths recently demonstrated his Lotus 101 at the Castle Combe Autumn Classic . Don't have programme to hand so don't know chassis details but maybe Tim would know .

Chassis 3, I believe, used early-season 1989 by Piquet, then became Nakajima’s regular chassis:

http://www.racecar-e...e-land-of-rum/#

The car has its own Facebook page:

https://m.facebook.c...85241911496727/

[Lee Nicolle]

There will be some F1s of that vintage running at the event in the Adelaide  Motorsport Festival in the parklands Dec 9/10.

Evidently they have got Craig Lowndes, Cam Waters, Tim Slade and Josh Keen as drivers. Cars are a Benneton B186  An Arrows A21, a Footwork FA15 and  also a FW07B Williams as well.

I feel the Benneton is the one that ran over Josh Keen [in the shed] at Mallala at the 2016 Historics.

[f1steveuk]

Is this the same request that has appeared on Facebook? I'm surprised to hear FORCE are running anything, as when it folded Mr E brought it all, and all the cars were in Biggin, well they were when I was there.

[Peter Morley]

Is this the same request that has appeared on Facebook? I'm surprised to hear FORCE are running anything, as when it folded Mr E brought it all, and all the cars were in Biggin, well they were when I was there.

 

Different FORCE - this is presumably one of David McLaughlin's events rather than Beatrice-Lola.

[chunder27]

I remember seeing a couple of Force cars at Biggin Hill when I worked there briefly in sort 2005 ish, but mainly Brabhams, think there was an 83 Toleman but might have been a similar era Brabham not sure.

 

Awful place though.

[f1steveuk]

Different FORCE - this is presumably one of David McLaughlin's events rather than Beatrice-Lola.

Ta, makes more sense!

[f1steveuk]

I remember seeing a couple of Force cars at Biggin Hill when I worked there briefly in sort 2005 ish, but mainly Brabhams, think there was an 83 Toleman but might have been a similar era Brabham not sure.

 

Awful place though.

I haven't worked there for a while, but none of the cars are in the hanger anymore, on the giant shelf unit! They have nearly all be spruced up and are displayed, and it some cases, running. West Camp was a bit grim, but they were all listed buildings so BCE couldn't really do much with them. Don't recall any Toleman's, but there were a lot of other makes from various eras.