136 replies to this topic

[MatsNorway]

8 speed gearboxes is just stupid.. they are chancing gears 5 times just when leaving the pits.. its hilarious and sad.. Listen to this.

 

https://youtu.be/N-ue72vx82A?t=104

 

 

[Atreiu]

It irritates me as well.

[f1paul]

Well, that's not the most important thing about F1 and I couldn't care about how many gears they have, as long as it's 5 or more and it doesn't go into double figures, so 8 is fine. 

[Mat13]

If this is your biggest problem with F1, I envy you.

[AustinF1]

It's not the biggest problem in F1, but it's one of 'em.

[TheRacingElf]

I agree, with the torque those hybrid engines have it's totally unnecessary too.

The fact the ratios are frozen for the whole season is a joke as well. Pinnacle of motorsport but you aren't allowed to change your gear ratios. 

[pdac]

If they had to press their foot on the clutch pedal and move the gear stick to change up/down, they would not have as many. But, given that they don't, what's wrong with that many?

[KnucklesAgain]

We need an official historic racing category, or rather 10 of them, so that everyone can watch and listen to the stuff they are into, and F1 is freed again to be the category where the cars race that strive to use state of the art technology

[Timstr11]

We need an official historic racing category, or rather 10 of them, so that everyone can watch and listen to the stuff they are into, and F1 is freed again to be the category where the cars race that strive to use state of the art technology

[Stephane]

CVT for the win.

[Scotracer]

But more gears is better?

[messy]

My Civic has six, an F1 car has eight. That seems about right to me. Less than a mountain bike, more than my car.

[EthanM]

8 speed gearboxes is just stupid.. they are chancing gears 5 times just when leaving the pits.. its hilarious and sad.. Listen to this.

 

https://youtu.be/N-ue72vx82A?t=104

 

Umm that's not "cars leaving the pitlane" that's cars practicing starts, and upshifting early in a torquey engine is a necessary part of controlling wheelspin

[SpartanChas]

I agree, with the torque those hybrid engines have it's totally unnecessary too.

The fact the ratios are frozen for the whole season is a joke as well. Pinnacle of motorsport but you aren't allowed to change your gear ratios. 

It's road relevance. A lot of automatic cars have 7, 8, 9, 10 gears now, and how many people change their gear ratios around?

[Kalmake]

I guess if they had less gears they would have to use more of the 10500-15000rpm flat range, which might sound more racey.

[morrino]

AFAIK they' be faster with less gears. But fans want baam baam baamm baaam baaaam just like they want V8s.

[BRG]

I suspect the OP was working at Peugeot back in 2004 when someone there decided that their new WRC entry, the 307CC, only needed a four speed gearbox. 

 

Which is one (although not the only one) reason why it was pretty much a flop, after the all-conquering 206.

[Slowersofterdumber]

Not a big issue really.

 

I would choose 6. With 7 or 8 gears you have a perfect ratio for each corner, and one thing that is really tricky is having a corner where one gear feels too short and the next one too long. Timing

shifts mid corner in these situations is tricky and I´d like to give drivers a bit more of a challenge in this respect.

[EthanM]

Not a big issue really.

 

I would choose 6. With 7 or 8 gears you have a perfect ratio for each corner, and one thing that is really tricky is having a corner where one gear feels too short and the next one too long. Timing

shifts mid corner in these situations is tricky and I´d like to give drivers a bit more of a challenge in this respect.

 

I doubt 8 gears will give you the perfect ratio for every single corner of every single track on the f1 calendar. 

[midgrid]

CVT for the win.

[Nonesuch]

F1 is freed again to be the category where the cars race that strive to use state of the art technology

 

You're going to need rather restrictive regulations regardless, or otherwise the cars would simply be too fast.

 

The stuff out there on the circuit is not what would be designed if you just asked the teams to build the quickest car for a 305 kilometre race.

[Slowersofterdumber]

I doubt 8 gears will give you the perfect ratio for every single corner of every single track on the f1 calendar. 

 

I don´t think I used the right word with perfect.

 

I mean nowadays there´s always a gear short enough to give you more than enough torque and long enough to avoid the rear stepping out when you engage it at any given speed.

 

When the last 6 gear Renaults raced (2004?) you used to be able to see them having to be creative and shifting in smart ways mid corner. The last downshift into every corner and the first upshift out of it were tricky to time.

[KnucklesAgain]

You're going to need rather restrictive regulations regardless, or otherwise the cars would simply be too fast.

 

The stuff out there on the circuit is not what would be designed if you just asked the teams to build the quickest car for a 305 kilometre race.

 

Agreed, and I have often said myself that today's technical perfection plus amount of available money is the fundamental problem of modern F1. You simply can't let them have a free-for-all go like in the seventies (edit: which is why I wrote "strive", as in, "do what you can within a sensible rule frame"). I have no clue what the solution is if any exists. But too many gears, really?

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 March 2017 - 21:09.

[Ivanhoe]

I think the main reason for the 8 speed gear box is that the rev limit for F1 engines is set at 15000 rpm, an 8 speed gear box allows you to have taller high gears, resulting in lower rpms and decreasing fuel consumption without compromising accelaration and topspeed. Apparently 8 gears is the optimum as every extra gear requires an extra clutch creating extra internal drag/energy loss.

[KnucklesAgain]

I think the main reason for the 8 speed gear box is that the rev limit for F1 engines is set at 15000 rpm, an 8 speed gear box allows you to have taller high gears, resulting in lower rpms and decreasing fuel consumption without compromising accelaration and topspeed. Apparently 8 gears is the optimum as every extra gear requires an extra clutch creating extra internal drag/energy loss.

 

" every extra gear requires an extra clutch"???

[milestone 11]

What's the fuss about. My car has 6 gears, had a motorbike once with 7 and in real terms, my pushy has 24.

[Lazy]

Oh yes please, just to wind up the noise boys

[Lazy]

You're going to need rather restrictive regulations regardless, or otherwise the cars would simply be too fast.

 

The stuff out there on the circuit is not what would be designed if you just asked the teams to build the quickest car for a 305 kilometre race.

You can just limit fuel.

[quaint]

You can just limit fuel.

 

Of course, if fuel saving exercise is what you want to see. You could check this out, too:

 

[KnucklesAgain]

You can just limit fuel.

 

Then you have cars with too little power for huge DF and Lauda's proverbial monkeys at the wheel flooring it around the entire lap

[quaint]

I think the main reason for the 8 speed gear box is that the rev limit for F1 engines is set at 15000 rpm, an 8 speed gear box allows you to have taller high gears, resulting in lower rpms and decreasing fuel consumption without compromising accelaration and topspeed. Apparently 8 gears is the optimum as every extra gear requires an extra clutch creating extra internal drag/energy loss.

 

Whilst I can't conclusively tell the reasons they went for 8 gears (because I wasn't in the meetings where they decided it was the way to go), a reasonable guess is that they wanted to make it easy enough to have fixed gears for a whole season, so that the chosen ratios wouldn't play a major role in deciding the pecking order. Fixed gears themselves were a cost-cutting measure.

 

You should also note that traditional wisdoms about fuel consumptions in road cars don't really apply in the world of racing cars. Better gearing giving better efficiency only gives them an opportunity to spend the petrol elsewhere (like off throttle charging or whatever), but the top gear is definitely not an F1 equivalent of an overdrive.

Edited by quaint, 02 March 2017 - 21:29.

[tormave]

I much prefer 8 gears to the situation a few years back when cars would hit the limiter trying to overtake. The poll needs a "I don't give a toss" option.

[Ivanhoe]

" every extra gear requires an extra clutch"???

Didn't express myself well. F1 uses multiplate clutches, like motorcycles and automatic transmissions.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 02 March 2017 - 21:32.

[quaint]

I much prefer 8 gears to the situation a few years back when cars would hit the limiter trying to overtake. The poll needs a "I don't give a toss" option.

 

In all likelihood the rev-limited V8s would have done so even with 8 or 9 gears to play with. Those engines would have benefited much more from extra gears than the ones we have these days. (The problem was not the engines, but the stupid rev-limit rule.)

[Scotracer]

AFAIK they' be faster with less gears. But fans want baam baam baamm baaam baaaam just like they want V8s.

 

....no.

[Scotracer]

In all likelihood the rev-limited V8s would have done so even with 8 or 9 gears to play with. Those engines would have benefited much more from extra gears than the ones we have these days. (The problem was not the engines, but the stupid rev-limit rule.)

 

It's largely irrelevant, the artificial limit. The V8s had a more 'natural' rev limit otherwise metal parts inside the engine that aren't meant to touch, start to touch. It's all down to the teams trying to optimise everything to the nth degree, therefore no spare capacity left for over-revving during overtakes.

 

With the V6Ts their rev 'ceiling', let's call it, is driven by the fueling. They can quite safely go beyond 12,000rpm or so they rev to but don't because it's slower. So when they're in a BIG BIG tow, they can let it rev out without fear of breaking something.

 

EDIT:

 

 

See here. Normally the engines would reach peak power and be out of juice by 12,000rpm. Here because of the odd fueling situation he was able to reach 13,100rpm in the tow. The old V8s didn't have this luxury. And hey, they really sound like they're screaming at 13k rpm huh?

Edited by Scotracer, 02 March 2017 - 21:40.

[MikeV1987]

it irritates me in the game, thats about it.

[Clatter]

AFAIK they' be faster with less gears. But fans want baam baam baamm baaam baaaam just like they want V8s.

Do they? Of all the things discussed I've never seen or heard that comment.

[KnucklesAgain]

Didn't express myself well. F1 uses multiplate clutches, like motorcycles and automatic transmissions.

 

2 clutches I thought, like any modern seamless shift in middle class road cars?

[Clatter]

I don´t think I used the right word with perfect.

 

I mean nowadays there´s always a gear short enough to give you more than enough torque and long enough to avoid the rear stepping out when you engage it at any given speed.

 

When the last 6 gear Renaults raced (2004?) you used to be able to see them having to be creative and shifting in smart ways mid corner. The last downshift into every corner and the first upshift out of it were tricky to time.

When I first saw the topic I wasnt sure there was really a problem. You just convinced me there is.

[Scotracer]

2 clutches I thought, like any modern seamless shift in middle class road cars?

 

No. Completely against the rules. They are single-clutch systems but that single clutch is made up from multiple wet lamellae (proper word for it  ) like the clutch in a motorbike.

 

I have a picture of an F1 clutch somewhere when I was last at ZF - it's about the size of a saucer!

 

How the actual transmissions shift is a bit of a mystery since it's crucial Intellectual Property but what I do understand from snippets is that they are built with enough slack/lash in the system so they can engage two gears at once. An overlap, if you will. This allows them to keep torque to the wheels at all time. All with a single clutch, that is only actually used for starts, pitstops and I presume downshifts but that last point is a bit of a guess on a modern system.

 

Of course that needs to be extremely carefully calibrated otherwise you get gears going skyward. 

[Kvothe]

Jesus Christ, this is whats wrong with the sport....Pedantic fans who've got so used to bitching about something, they begin to fixate on the most trivial of trivialities. We haven't got the media we want....But we have got the media we deserve.

[KnucklesAgain]

No. Completely against the rules. They are single-clutch systems but that single clutch is made up from multiple wet lamellae (proper word for it  ) like the clutch in a motorbike.

 

I have a picture of an F1 clutch somewhere when I was last at ZF - it's about the size of a saucer!

 

How the actual transmissions shift is a bit of a mystery since it's crucial Intellectual Property but what I do understand from snippets is that they are built with enough slack/lash in the system so they can engage two gears at once. An overlap, if you will. This allows them to keep torque to the wheels at all time. All with a single clutch, that is only actually used for starts, pitstops and I presume downshifts but that last point is a bit of a guess on a modern system.

 

Of course that needs to be extremely carefully calibrated otherwise you get gears going skyward. 

 

I learn something new every 5 minutes. Thank you

(Edit: I did know about the tiny, tiny CF clutch disk, but what I knew was from many, many years ago. It was incredible then (and the reason why actually getting the car to move was so difficult already), I am sure it is mind blowing now)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 March 2017 - 22:12.

[Scotracer]

I learn something new every 5 minutes. Thank you

(Edit: I did know about the tiny, tiny CF clutch disk, but what I knew was from many, many years ago. It was incredible then (and the reason why actually getting the car to move was so difficult already), I am sure it is mind blowing now)

 

The clutch will be bigger now than the one I had a play with - it was a 2008 Sauber clutch, 2.4 V8 non-KERS vintage. With the introduction of KERS they would have had to increase clutch diameter or number of plates to cope with extra torque. And now with the 1.6Ts they will have to be significantly bigger. The torque on tap is about double the old V8s, therefore twice the friction required!

[Clatter]

Jesus Christ, this is whats wrong with the sport....Pedantic fans who've got so used to bitching about something, they begin to fixate on the most trivial of trivialities. We haven't got the media we want....But we have got the media we deserve.

Whats the issue with discussing it? Are you worried that everything will be picked up by the FIA and /or Liberty?

[Kvothe]

Whats the issue with discussing it? Are you worried that everything will be picked up by the FIA and /or Liberty?

I just personally feel a discussion like this represents everything that's wrong with F1 at the moment. Have the discussion sure but let's critically ask ourselves whether sometimes we all do more harm than good by doing so....All in the name of 24/7 f1

[Ivanhoe]

The clutch will be bigger now than the one I had a play with - it was a 2008 Sauber clutch, 2.4 V8 non-KERS vintage. With the introduction of KERS they would have had to increase clutch diameter or number of plates to cope with extra torque. And now with the 1.6Ts they will have to be significantly bigger. The torque on tap is about double the old V8s, therefore twice the friction required!

They are still small, 4 carbon fibre 97 mm discs

Edited by Ivanhoe, 02 March 2017 - 22:42.

[Clatter]

I just personally feel a discussion like this represents everything that's wrong with F1 at the moment. Have the discussion sure but let's critically ask ourselves whether sometimes we all do more harm than good by doing so....All in the name of 24/7 f1

Really cannot see what harm is being done.

[Kvothe]

Really cannot see what harm is being done.

Ok

[Ali_G]

Gears are like compound interest. In theory, the more, the faster the car. More gears however leads to more gear changes which results in less time with power going to the wheels. It also results in more friction and larger gearboxes.

CVT then is like constantly compounding interest. This is literally the optimum gearbox you can have. No one wants to hear an engine stuck constantly at the same revs.

The ultimate question as always is though, if you have a CVT gearbox, do you set the engine to rev at peak power or peak torque?