35 replies to this topic

[BittenHeroes]

Hello fellow enthusiasts

It is widely accepted that the reason Honda canned their F1 project in early 1999 was following the sudden death of Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, but today I was reading an article from the 1999/2000 F1 Yearbook that denies that this is true.

According to Kunio Shibata's article, the decision had already been made before Harvey's death. Here is what the article says:

 

"There is no link between his (HP) death and Honda's decision (to can the project). It was not his death which led the project being canned. Honda had already signed a deal with BAR back in the beginning of March and Postlethwaite had written to them, trying to get them to change their minds. It was in vain.

It was mainly down to some political in-fighting between two rival factions within Honda.

There was an "extremist" group, which wanted to keep the total-team idea alive at all costs. Then there was the "moderate" group, which was not necessarily against the F1 project, but wanted to see a balance between expenditure and profit.

In 1998, when the company's new president, Mr Yoshino announced their F1 comeback, he did not go into any detail, as there was no detail available to announce. But the extremist group made the most of this announcement and very quickly built a prototype and started running it, thinking that if the car was a real entity then Honda would be obliged to go down that route. But in the end, it was the moderates who won on the day and the board decided that the project would be too costly."

 

I'm interested to know what the truth is about this subject. Can any of you guys cast some light on it?

[Talisman]

Thats correct, the decision to pull out of the full team was done before he died, in fact he was lobbying Honda to reconsider their decision when he passed away.  Unfortunately his death meant that whatever slim chance the Honda had of racing disappeared with him.  Apparently BAR were given the chassis afterwards and it was superior to theirs in design pioneering concepts like twin keel which other teams only took up in 2001 onwards.  The car was a great showcase of what Harvey Postlethwaite could have achieved with a decent budget.

[ANF]

From the Grandprix.com encyclopedia:

"In 1998 Kawamoto gave the go-ahead for Honda to return to F1 with a complete team. A factory was established under Harvey Postlethwaite in England and Dallara in Italy built the prototype cars. As this was happening Kawamoto was ousted in a power struggle and, under pressure from the American Honda Motor company - which wanted nothing to do with an F1 program - the new chief executive Hiroyuki Yoshino - the first non-racer to run the company - decided to switch to British American Racing in 2000."

[Cornholio]

Memory is a bit hazy as I was only 15 at the time, but yeah I remember reading about the BAR decision before reading about Postlethwaite's passing.

 

One of the biggest "what-ifs" of my time following the sport, to be honest.

[Talisman]

To add some context to his decision while there have always been factions in Honda that insist on staying involved in F1 left to their own devices Honda would have died or been taken over several times as they weren't that interested in the business side. Every time Honda has pulled out of F1 it's been because of an existential crisis or situation elsewhere. Back in the 60s they pulled out to facilitate starting mass car manufacturing. In the 90s they pulled out to free up money to start up car manufacturing in the USA. The decision in 1999/2000 was made as Honda was busy fending off takeover bids from Ford and Daimler, it was seen as an inevitability that Honda would not stay independent for long. Thus the F1 project was canned to cut costs.

[EvilPhil II]

I remember the test mule being driven by Verstappen during official F1 testing (so comparable to cars at that time) and it was claimed to be regulation ready.  Some of the sessions it was extremely quick but looked like a brick leading to speculation that it was under weight.   

 

The above politics sort of puts that in perspective. 

[RacingGreen]

Thanks everyone. Interesting to reflect how board room politics can bring about a major change in policy towards racing even at a late stage of the projects development. A good reason for motor racing to be in the hands of racing teams, whose sole business is motor racing, and not manufacturers. A lesson that still hasn't been learnt by some.

[TennisUK]

David Hunt tried to acquire the Dallara chassis and bolt Mechachrome engines in them in one of his myriad attempts at resurrecting the Team Lotus name.

[danmills]

Edited by danmills, 06 March 2017 - 12:43.

[danmills]

Edited by danmills, 06 March 2017 - 12:43.

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[GeeVeeF1]

I remember the test mule being driven by Verstappen during official F1 testing (so comparable to cars at that time) and it was claimed to be regulation ready.  Some of the sessions it was extremely quick but looked like a brick leading to speculation that it was under weight.   

 

The above politics sort of puts that in perspective. 

 

Indeed that was the case.... the below snippet from a 1999 grandprix.com article backs this up: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns01888.html

[danmills]

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[danmills]

Here's a video too

 

[GeeVeeF1]

In addition to the high-profile testing programme with Jos Vertappen, Honda F1 also tested in late 1999 with Nicholas Minassian. This was a secret test at the small Pembrey circuit in Wales for BAR to test out Honda's planned 2000 electronics, and they also used the test to test out various iterations of the proposed 2000 season BAR-Honda livery, to see how the livery looked in the flesh/on camera Link to article here: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns02189.html

[danmills]

And a 4 part mini series on it to enjoy

 

 

 

 

[danmills]

ADMIN - Feel free to make this post its own new topic. Apologies to go on a tangent!*

Not related, but can anyone shed light on THIS set of abortive Honda prototype videos!? Looks like an old McLaren 90s hybrid with... bridgestone groved tyres!?

 

It's supposedly a 'Honda RC100' project from 1993 at Suzuka. But were bridgestones even around in that time period suitable for F1 cars? Stumped, it a head mash and looks later in areas.

 

Edit - here's some info!

http://wikivisually....iki/Honda_RC100

 

 

 

 

Stunning. To think this was designed 'for fun' by Honda staff.

 

 

Edited by danmills, 06 March 2017 - 13:20.

[GeeVeeF1]

In addition to the high-profile testing programme with Jos Vertappen, Honda F1 also tested in late 1999 with Nicholas Minassian. This was a secret test at the small Pembrey circuit in Wales for BAR to test out Honda's planned 2000 electronics, and they also used the test to test out various iterations of the proposed 2000 season BAR-Honda livery, to see how the livery looked in the flesh/on camera Link to article here: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns02189.html

 

Here's a very rare photo of the secret Nicolas Minassian test at Pembrey in the Honda F1 test mule:

[TennisUK]

Not related, but can anyone shed light on THIS set of abortive Honda prototype videos!? Looks like an old McLaren 90s hybrid with... bridgestone groved tyres!?

 

It's supposedly a 'Honda RC100' project from 1993 at Suzuka. But were bridgestones even around in that time period suitable for F1 cars? Stumped, it a head mash and looks later in areas.

Japanese F3000 tyres from memory.

[Talisman]

The two Hondas were both in house prototype units designed and built out of hours. One was developed towards the end of the mclaren era as Honda pondered options as they knew they wanted to part ways with Woking.

Both were very uncompetitive and Honda's conclusion was that F1 chassis design was better off outsourced and not done in house. I think the second car was mid to late 90s.

[TennisUK]

1996 it was. Very gimmicky aero, I doubt it ever saw the inside of a wind tunnel.

Amazingly Honda did another F1 car which never raced as well as these three - the RA270 from 1964. The most notable eccentricity of this car was the exhaust manifold which had 12 separate exhaust outlets!

And there is also the tragic story of the air cooled RA302 which only had a single start.

[kurski]

Mika Salo was second Honda's test driver, but the plans did not materialize when Harvey died.

[PayasYouRace]

Here's a very rare photo of the secret Nicolas Minassian test at Pembrey in the Honda F1 test mule:

What are those bars round the wheels?

[messy]

It was a shame it didn't ultimately see the light of day because I think a full, in-house works Honda team would have been a very different animal to the BAR Honda linkup. And I remember thinking at the time that the car looked pretty good, and hearing decent things about it.

[Dan333SP]

 

The car looks like a '99 Stewart with the airbox inlet of a 1st-gen A1GP car.

 

 

Edited by Dan333SP, 06 March 2017 - 20:38.