4037 replies to this topic

[Rudex]

 

 I suppose SV didnt have the opportunity to use the DRS or any tow in the race. It is very sad. S2 is amazing

[apreading]

I reckon that getting Sauber to sign up for the Honda engine next year was a masterstroke by McLaren.  They even offered to build gearbox and hydraulics for Sauber.

 

And why...?

 

Because it frees up the supply of a 2016 Ferrari engine that McLaren can use next year - will be a huuuge upgrade for them!

[Brazzers]

People must be kidding themselves if they believe Honda is going to challenge Mercedes or Ferrari. No way this is going to happen, 3 years and so far nothing to show for. If anything McLaren are in a worse position than 2015/2016. I can't remember a team going from back of the grid to the front within the same regulation period. 

 

As someone mentioned earlier this partnership was bought on to beat Mercedes/get a better engine. This has not happened, McLaren should return to Mercedes in the short-term and aim to get a competent Engine Manufacturer. 

 

I don't know many partnerships in the business world let alone the sporting world who are given 3 years for terrible poor performance (maybe average yes), Honda in this regard have been quite lucky. 

[wj_gibson]

At the end of the day you can't have drivers such as Alonso turn up, qualify 15th and break down on the formation lap and expect the brands of both parties (McLaren and Honda) to remain intact.

[superden]

There is nothing positive Honda can take from this most recent of dabblings ​in F1. Their current effort is making the RA108 look like a veritable festival of success.

[gilez]

Conspiracy theory: is Ron sabotaging McLaren now that he's been ousted? To me he issued "order 66" to kill all power units  

[SirPaulGerman]

I dont get people who are opposed to a Mercedes engine, I dont mind being a top midfield with Mercedes or  the other option is not able to finish a race with a Honda and when they finish maybe only ahead of Sauber 

[EthanM]

I dont get people who are opposed to a Mercedes engine, I dont mind being a top midfield with Mercedes or  the other option is not able to finish a race with a Honda and when they finish maybe only ahead of Sauber 

 

the problem with midfield is it's a rut that's incredibly difficult to escape from. Look at the car. Pretty light on sponsors. Cause McLaren won't sell title sponsor for 3 quid like Williams and Force India had to. But you get a 20 mil engine bill, lose Honda contributions to the budget, suddenly you kinda have to take whatever sponsorship comes your way (or convince the owners to bankroll the racing team which is gonna be hard to do since they are not idiots, they know they won't beat Merc as a Merc customer) And that's where the rut begins.

[baddog]

I dont get people who are opposed to a Mercedes engine, I dont mind being a top midfield with Mercedes or  the other option is not able to finish a race with a Honda and when they finish maybe only ahead of Sauber 

 

But they do. Being top midfield has never ever been an aim for a team the size and history of Mclaren. Accepting it is a slippery slope.

 

That said it is horrible right now.. you have an engine which is basically running in crippled test mode, drivers who are in one case of unknown ability and in the other losing the plot rapidly, and you dont actually know how good your chassis is.

 

Well. I hope it comes good, I am as far from a mac fan as you can get but we need them to be at the sharp end of the sport, they are a big big team with total commitment.

[AustinF1]

 

 I suppose SV didnt have the opportunity to use the DRS or any tow in the race. It is very sad. S2 is amazing

Whoa....Who was it that was telling me yesterday that I exaggerated when I said McLaren were 10 mph slower in the speed trap? Looks like they were well over 22 mph slower today. Just wow.

[Dalin80]

McLaren Volkswagen. Kinda weird.
McLaren Audi. Strange.
McLaren Porsche. Sounds like an expensive watch brand.
McLaren BMW. So '90.
McLaren Lamborghini. Porn actress.
McLaren Skoda. Too cheap.
McLaren Seat. Free next season.

Sorry guys, can't be, there's no mojo in this combinations (there isn't in McLaren Honda either, truth be told)

 

 

McLaren Toyota. Toyota have had considerable experience in hybrid engines in LMP with the 1200bhp beast. OK there was a failure at the end of Lemans last year but that was after 23 hours and 55 minutes of racing with 1200 bhp, not 23 seconds and failing to make the start.

[sopa]

But they do. Being top midfield has never ever been an aim for a team the size and history of Mclaren. Accepting it is a slippery slope.

 

That said it is horrible right now.. you have an engine which is basically running in crippled test mode, drivers who are in one case of unknown ability and in the other losing the plot rapidly, and you dont actually know how good your chassis is.

 

Well. I hope it comes good, I am as far from a mac fan as you can get but we need them to be at the sharp end of the sport, they are a big big team with total commitment.

 

 

How many seasons of "utter and complete humiliation" would be accepted in the vague hope of "becoming more than a top midfield team"? 3 years? 5? 10? 20?

 

McLaren might have a great history, but for the people in the team it must be incredibly hard to keep up the motivation. Especially on the chassis side. They can get no real rewards for it at all. While if they beat Force India and Williams with the same engines, the chassis department can at least hail that they have done a reasonable job and beat someone.

[gilez]

Then let Alonso go, get a midfield driver and eat humble pie until you're back on top. Honestly the worst thing to see isn't the car performance but Alonso all sour about it. As much as I admire his talent, I have had enough of his interviews and whatnot. 

[mclarensmps]

McLaren Toyota. Toyota have had considerable experience in hybrid engines in LMP with the 1200bhp beast. OK there was a failure at the end of Lemans last year but that was after 23 hours and 55 minutes of racing with 1200 bhp, not 23 seconds and failing to make the start.

Screw that. Any tie up with Toyota, and my support is on hold till it's over.


On a more serious note, my annoyance is not at the fact that the PU was slow at the race, that was expected. My annoyance is that they keep saying they've worked on reliability and it should be better, then it goes and fails again. 

It's so frustrating. 

[AustinF1]

Toyota and Audi make the most sense to me off the top of my head. It's doubtful Audi can or wants to get into F1, and who knows about Toyota...

[brokeracer]

McLaren need to dump Honda and get an engine that has a hope of netting the solid points finishes.

[sopa]

But the Honda ''thing'' doesn't work! And there is no need to make it sound like an impossible task for anyone else just to defent Honda... Honda failed while 3 others didn't!

 

In a way I agree. Honda failing doesn't mean that any other (new) manufacturer would definitely fail in F1 too, at least to that extent. There is middle ground.

 

Sure... Honda's effort proves that it is hard to succeed in F1. But it doesn't mean any newcomer would turn out to be an utter flop just like Honda. Even if they don't win in Mercedes/Ferrari style, they could at least match Renault's performance.

 

Also... I doubt some other big manufacturer would place their engine factory at the other side of the world with - as rumoured - plenty of junior engineers working on the engine for "practicing".

 

If BMW, VW or Toyota joined F1 as an engine manufacturer, their PU factory would most likely be situated in Germany, and not in Japan, which would already make a difference. Also they would be located pretty close to Mercedes, which means snapping up top talents from there would be easier.

 

So yeah - if committing properly, I can see BMW, VW, Toyota building better engines than Honda.

 

However, I don't see any of BMW/VW/Toyota being interested in F1 before the new regs in 2021. Current regs would still be mighty expensive. And while I would say there is a decent chance they could do better than Honda, they wouldn't be matching Ferrari/Mercedes, which would ultimately be their goal.

 

So... bring on 2021? Also perhaps by that time VW Group might have dealt with their emissions fines somewhat, so they could perhaps start turning more attention to motorsports again.

[EthanM]

nobody new is entering the current formula, forget about it. Maybe if the 2020+ regs are sensible.

 

McLaren has 3 options:

 

Stick with Honda and hope they work it out

Have its owners pucker up, hand over a truckload of cash, and turn McLaren into a manufacturer

Or be somebody's customer and fight with Williams and FI for the foreseeable future

 

the rest is pure fantasy

[AustinF1]

nobody new is entering the current formula, forget about it. Maybe if the 2020+ regs are sensible.

 

McLaren has 3 options:

 

Stick with Honda and hope they work it out

Have its owners pucker up, hand over a truckload of cash, and turn McLaren into a manufacturer

Or be somebody's customer and fight with Williams and FI for the foreseeable future

 

the rest is pure fantasy

Yep. Maybe with the upcoming new formula, but the current formula is just too expensive and unnecessarily complex. Nobody's gonna risk being the next Honda.

[Dalin80]

 

If BMW, VW or Toyota joined F1 as an engine manufacturer, their PU factory would most likely be situated in Germany, and not in Japan, which would already make a difference. Also they would be located pretty close to Mercedes, which means snapping up top talents from there would be easier.

 

 

 

If location is an issue then they would probably want to set up in the UK.

[BillBald]

He started on the SS. Since he was at the back, he lost no time swapping to the US during the SC period. But the US can't do a whole race so he had to pit again.

 

It was actually a smart strategy, to be on the better tyre the whole time.

 

That's why he had such awesome pace. 

[Treads]

nobody new is entering the current formula, forget about it. Maybe if the 2020+ regs are sensible.

McLaren has 3 options:

Stick with Honda and hope they work it out
Have its owners pucker up, hand over a truckload of cash, and turn McLaren into a manufacturer
Or be somebody's customer and fight with Williams and FI for the foreseeable future

the rest is pure fantasy

Number two isn't even an option. If McLaren made the decision (which they won't) to invest a billion quid (which they don't have) in a new engine of their own, it would be a year before they had the programme up and running and three before they could hope to have anything even halfway competitive...

This latest disaster isn't news, really. The current engine is horribly unreliable. So McLaren shouldn't be basing any decision on it. All they need to do is take a cold hard look at Honda and assess how far they think they will be behind next year. If it is more than they can stomach, they need to change motor, and swallow the big bill this brings. Trouble is, that's such a big bill it might be undoable, and yet sticking with Honda sticks in my craw...

[BJHF1]

I wonder how much longer Prodromou will be sticking around for...?

I could see him jumping ship to Renault in the near future, as it's almost a certainty Mclaren won't be winning anytime soon, regardless of the lump in the back of the car.

[AustinF1]

^Probably around the same time FA goes to Renault, if he does...

[Muzzyf1]

I just feel for the drivers Alonso in his prime and stoffel starting out both made to look like idiots by Honda

[balaclava]

How on earth can a company, with the engineering and industrial might of Honda, be unable to build an engine that can last a single race? I mean, be it fast or slow, but at least to be lasting... Alonso had more run in the European Minardi in his rookie year, and that car was completely untested before Melbourne. Is there even a precedence of this happening before? I would like to be a fly in the wall of Zak's office, thats for sure.

[RacingGreen]

the problem with midfield is it's a rut that's incredibly difficult to escape from. Look at the car. Pretty light on sponsors. Cause McLaren won't sell title sponsor for 3 quid like Williams and Force India had to. But you get a 20 mil engine bill, lose Honda contributions to the budget, suddenly you kinda have to take whatever sponsorship comes your way (or convince the owners to bankroll the racing team which is gonna be hard to do since they are not idiots, they know they won't beat Merc as a Merc customer) And that's where the rut begins.

 

Oh no! - I thought the rut had already started. Please don't tell me that there is worse to come than not even being finish the formation lap.

[AustinF1]

Different rut.

[charly0418]

A moment of silence for our fallen comrades Muramasa and Mclaren Soul

[Flyhigh]

the problem with midfield is it's a rut that's incredibly difficult to escape from. Look at the car. Pretty light on sponsors. Cause McLaren won't sell title sponsor for 3 quid like Williams and Force India had to. But you get a 20 mil engine bill, lose Honda contributions to the budget, suddenly you kinda have to take whatever sponsorship comes your way (or convince the owners to bankroll the racing team which is gonna be hard to do since they are not idiots, they know they won't beat Merc as a Merc customer) And that's where the rut begins.

Well, In F1 if you are not a manufacturer, backed by one or have the budget similar of one, you are not going to be a championship team regardless. The only thing that makes me believe that Mclaren can crawl back to be a top contender again is the Mclaren group, which is in a smaller scale, similar to Ferrari. If it wasn´t for this, Mclaren might as well just strive to be another Williams, which is no rut to me.   

 

I don´t like to group up the midfield like it was all the same thing. What Williams is doing is quite different than what a Force India is doing for example, Williams is doing the best that an independent, non car manufacturer backed, purely F1 team can do. The drivers that drive for Williams are usually with some exceptions very good or could be champions, Massa ,Bottas, Rosberg, they are very happy and motivated to drive for Williams and their technical team is very, very good. I don´t quite see the rut there.

 
If Mclaren was that dependent on Honda like some believe, might as well call it  Honda or sell it to them. Heck, not even Apple it seems has been able to buy Mclaren out yet. So in conclusion, Mclaren to me is a little more than just a purely F1 outfit dependent on a particular auto maker, that is why they are not destined to be a Williams and can on paper, standby for a few years not having a manufaturer backing and be looking for a competent one, while running like a Williams team. 

 

 

Edited by Flyhigh, 01 May 2017 - 04:17.

[Nobody]

I wonder how much longer Prodromou will be sticking around for...?

I could see him jumping ship to Renault in the near future, as it's almost a certainty Mclaren won't be winning anytime soon, regardless of the lump in the back of the car.

 

The lump is what's holding Macca back, and Prod knows it.

[TF110]

First you say it's not just the Honda engine that sucks, then immediately after, you say nobody can know how good the car is. If nobody can know how good the car is, then how can you know it's not just a crap engine in a great car?

 

Then as support for your assertion, you cite insufficient funding and a car three years ago that was designed and built before the arrival of the current McLaren Aero design boss.

I think you're lost. You don't realize how good or bad a car is if the engine isn't going at it's full potential. And obviously the car and engine are not going to their full potential, why? Well I even said it- "because it's got a slow engine".   Did you skip that part?

 

Basically the talk about McLaren are good and Honda are bad is based on inconclusive evidence. Right now the only thing that's certain is the Honda is not near the other engines. But no one can say the McLaren chassis is as good as the Renault, RB, Ferrari, Mercedes etc. That's because they aren't going well enough to judge. I stated the last time they had a top engine in 2014, they were 5th best behind another customer Mercedes team (Williams). New aero guys or not, that's the only thing you can go by in recent history. It remains to be seen if this 'new' McLaren could go better than that. Sorry if you don't agree, but those are facts until the Honda engine is at the level of Ferrari and Mercedes, or McLaren gets one of those engines with parity.

[Quickshifter]

I have said it all along say it now.

 

This year with the amount of time spent on full throttle  under new aero regulations  no need to worry about which is a power track and which isn't.

 

Barring, Monaco, Hungary and Singapore, rest are all power tracks. The only difference between the tracks being the level of downforce you run, like Silverstone is brutal on power units but requires relatively higher downforce. Even Suzuka requires higher downforce levels but requires lot of grunt as a lot of time is spent on full throttle. There is one common factor which is the requirement of a competitive engine. Without a competitive engine you cannot even compare the chassis because it will be run in a compromised state and it is impossible to get the tires functioning in their optimal window.

Edited by Quickshifter, 01 May 2017 - 06:13.

[AlexS]

But they do. Being top midfield has never ever been an aim for a team the size and history of Mclaren. Accepting it is a slippery slope.

 

That said it is horrible right now.. you have an engine which is basically running in crippled test mode, drivers who are in one case of unknown ability and in the other losing the plot rapidly, and you dont actually know how good your chassis is.

 

Well. I hope it comes good, I am as far from a mac fan as you can get but we need them to be at the sharp end of the sport, they are a big big team with total commitment.

 

Who have more reputation today Williams or Mclaren? Let's say a new engine builder or a driver wants to get on F1 who would they choose, Williams that have been one of the best midfield teams or Mclaren that even in their last year year with Mercedes engines was behind?

 

Teams  build their reputation in midfield. That is is the way to attract talent, before getting on podiums.

[ferrari2017]

i hoping the EJ is right , and mclaren will sign with mercedes for 2018. I just hope mclaren are listening to mclaren fans and are not for themselves(for honda money, which i think is the reality).

I remember in 2013 and 14 how much mclaren talked about fighting for the title  and the wind tunnel data suggests how much gains they made, but what really happened. they were slower thatn other mercedes runners. let say if mclaren were the only mercedes runner in 2013 and 14 , we would have heard how bad is the mercedes in 2013 and 14 by those same mclaren fans bashing honda now. but fortunately there were other teams that ran the same engine and show how much slower is the mclaren. Anyway i think its best if mclaren ran a mercedes  in 2018 and honda to what ever they want.

[Henri Greuter]

Screw that. Any tie up with Toyota, and my support is on hold till it's over.


On a more serious note, my annoyance is not at the fact that the PU was slow at the race, that was expected. My annoyance is that they keep saying they've worked on reliability and it should be better, then it goes and fails again. 

It's so frustrating. 

 

 

 

No offence intended but.....

 

 

That final sentense.....

 

How often did F1 fans of anything else but either McLaren, either Honda, either Prost or either Senna said that during 1988 when they (I among them) had to see all those races of 1988 with near perfection by McLaren-Honda. Then, for them/us:  "It was so frustrating....."

 

 

 

 

Henri

[Owen]

i hoping the EJ is right , and mclaren will sign with mercedes for 2018. I just hope mclaren are listening to mclaren fans and are not for themselves(for honda money, which i think is the reality).

I remember in 2013 and 14 how much mclaren talked about fighting for the title  and the wind tunnel data suggests how much gains they made, but what really happened. they were slower thatn other mercedes runners. let say if mclaren were the only mercedes runner in 2013 and 14 , we would have heard how bad is the mercedes in 2013 and 14 by those same mclaren fans bashing honda now. but fortunately there were other teams that ran the same engine and show how much slower is the mclaren. Anyway i think its best if mclaren ran a mercedes  in 2018 and honda to what ever they want.

Not all the fans want a Mercedes PU in the back of the car. Just saying.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Not all the fans want a Mercedes PU in the back of the car. Just saying.

They would rather have a Honda? Surely, not?!?

One that over three years hasn't improved? Even the Renault PU back in 2014 was alot more reliable by season start...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 May 2017 - 08:16.