38 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

...Is this legal?    Would it be legal to restart your stalled engine using your MGUK during the race?

 

Mark Webber was surprised as he believed the regulations require the cars must only be able to started by an external starter.

[barnardferrari]

From the 2017 Technical Regulations:

 

5.20  Starting the engine :
A supplementary device temporarily connected to the car may be used to start the engine in
the team’s designated garage area, in the pit lane and on the grid.

It doesn't say that an external starter is the only method possible.

[FPV GTHO]

This has been common since 2014

[turssi]

This has been common since 2014

Was that when Kimi came back to Red?

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Who, other then the OP, effing cares.

[Shakengandulf]

From the 2017 Technical Regulations:
It doesn't say that an external starter is the only method possible.

"device temporarily connected"

[HoldenRT]

Who, other then the OP, effing cares.

 

It's the first qualifying day of the season.. don't understand a reason to be so grumpy.

[Wuzak]

I think KMag did the same at Spa last year - maybe in practice

[Kalmake]

I think KMag did the same at Spa last year - maybe in practice

At least the commentators though so. Expert in the pits said he just ran the engine in idling mode so it was quiet.

[V8 Fireworks]

Who, other then the OP, effing cares.

 

Clearly multiple grand prix winner Mark Webber cares otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it!     This means if you stall your car, you can restart it and rejoin the race.  That is a game changer in open wheel racing.  Do you not remember the countless racers in CART and F1 that had to retire from the race after stalling their car?

[V8 Fireworks]

"device temporarily connected may be used to start the car"

 

Certainly a legal vagarity.  Depending on the lawyer's interpretation "may be used" can be interpreted as the only way to start the car... "may" is sometimes interpreted as must (e.g., you may purchase a parking ticket from the ticket machines along this zone).  It would appear FIA accepts drivers  using the MGUK to restart cars during sessions and races... If a driver were to charge back to win after stalling their car in the runoff area, a mischievous rival could choose to protest the result, perhaps...

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 March 2017 - 04:58.

[warp]

Clearly multiple grand prix winner Mark Webber cares otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it!     This means if you stall your car, you can restart it and rejoin the race.  That is a game changer in open wheel racing.  Do you not remember the countless racers in CART and F1 that had to retire from the race after stalling their car?

 

 

This.

 

It doesn't give you an advantage other to know you can still finish the race. You could probably deplete your energy store in the process too, so you'll be slower for a lap or two.

The sore point here is safety... Is that car stopped for good or waiting to restart? Is that a red flag or a yellow flag?

 

 

I don't care if it's allowed, but it should be studied and regulated for safety (if applicable).

[Jazza]

We know drivers have clutch started their cars in the past. That is not using an external device, so it can't be illegal to start a car without using an external device.

[Muzzyf1]

Well hes using a legal device to start it i dont see the problem

[Victor_RO]

Sainz stalled on the grid in Malaysia last year and restarted his engine using the MGU-K before the lights went out (and that prevented an aborted start).

[Risil]

Clearly multiple grand prix winner Mark Webber cares otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it!     This means if you stall your car, you can restart it and rejoin the race.  That is a game changer in open wheel racing.  Do you not remember the countless racers in CART and F1 that had to retire from the race after stalling their car?

 

In CART they often threw a yellow and a track worker gave them a push to get going again. It's only F1 with an explicit (albert loopholed) "no external assistance rule". 

 

This isn't something I've really noticed but stalled cars getting themselves going again sounds good for racing.

[Mat13]

Just makes the MGU-K and H even better in my view.

[pdac]

Certainly a legal vagarity.  Depending on the lawyer's interpretation "may be used" can be interpreted as the only way to start the car... "may" is sometimes interpreted as must (e.g., you may purchase a parking ticket from the ticket machines along this zone).  It would appear FIA accepts drivers  using the MGUK to restart cars during sessions and races... If a driver were to charge back to win after stalling their car in the runoff area, a mischievous rival could choose to protest the result, perhaps...

 

I don't read it as vague at all. Saying something "may be done" simply declares that action as being allowed. If there are no statements specifically excluding anything then that's all that is being stated (i.e. they are just clarifying that an external device can be used in the pits). Effectively, the rule states absolutely nothing can could be omitted.

[Clatter]

"device temporarily connected"

Don't cherry pick a few words, read the whole rule.

[Clatter]

I don't read it as vague at all. Saying something "may be done" simply declares that action as being allowed. If there are no statements specifically excluding anything then that's all that is being stated (i.e. they are just clarifying that an external device can be used in the pits). Effectively, the rule states absolutely nothing can could be omitted.

Im fairly certain that the external starter allowed rule only even exists because the teams didn't want to carry the extra weight of a starter motor, which for the most part is surplus to requirements.

Edited by Clatter, 25 March 2017 - 16:09.

[dau]

...Is this legal?    Would it be legal to restart your stalled engine using your MGUK during the race?

 

Mark Webber was surprised as he believed the regulations require the cars must only be able to started by an external starter.

"But is this legal?" 

 

This really doesn't sound like the Mark Webber i remember. 

[A3]

I believe last year Sainz did the same thing on the grid, seconds before lights out.

[ExFlagMan]

Seem to recall it was being touted as one of the advantages of the current power unit systems when they were first proposed.

 

As it is an integral part of the car then it should not really be argued as being 'outside assistance', after all, a standard starter motor is not regarded as an external device. 

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

This really doesn't sound like the Mark Webber i remember. 

 

Yes, Webber said: "The engine has stopped, Raikkonen is out... (some time later) Wow, Raikkonen has got it going again. I'm very surprised."

[Seanspeed]

I love that this is a thing again.  Terribly annoying to have a driver's race ended(and a potential long yellow flag/safety car) just because a car stalls. 

[pdac]

Im fairly certain that the external starter allowed rule only even exists because the teams didn't want to carry the extra weight of a starter motor, which for the most part is surplus to requirements.

 

Yes, that was my understanding too. So the wording of the rule is simply clarifying that, if they want to, they can temporarily attach a device to start the car (as long as the car is in the pits or on the starting grid). It amazes me, though, how difficult the rule writers find it to describe their thoughts in clear, simple, English.

[KnucklesAgain]

Certainly a legal vagarity.  Depending on the lawyer's interpretation "may be used" can be interpreted as the only way to start the car... "may" is sometimes interpreted as must (e.g., you may purchase a parking ticket from the ticket machines along this zone).  It would appear FIA accepts drivers  using the MGUK to restart cars during sessions and races... If a driver were to charge back to win after stalling their car in the runoff area, a mischievous rival could choose to protest the result, perhaps...

 

"A supplementary device temporarily connected to the car may be used to start the engine in
the team’s designated garage area, in the pit lane and on the grid."

 

I believe this says two things:

1. WHEN in the garage, pit lane, or on grid, you are allowed to use an external temporary device and you do NOT have to use a built-in starter.

2. When NOT in the garage, pit lane, or on grid, you are NOT allowed to use an external temporary device.

 

Hence in the past teams had the option of having no internal starter at all, and took it up because they figured it better, overall. (Edit: Or this desire came first and the rule was written to clarify its legality, as others have suggested).

 

Now they have the MGU-K anyway, which is capable of starting the engine, hence they are allowed to do it.

 

And it makes sense to allow cars to get out of dangerous spots ASAP without interrupting the race. Dangerous maneuvers are disallowed by the blanket rule anyway. I also remind you of the countless discussions arguing that built-in starters should be mandatory for precisely this reason.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 March 2017 - 19:30.

[TractionEvent]

There is a tech article about it somewhere..

Its not a starter. They are using the mgu K (i believe) tor turn the pu.

[Pete_f1]

I first saw this in Spa last year and thought it was a novelty. I think it was a Haas or something

[EthanM]

...Is this legal?    Would it be legal to restart your stalled engine using your MGUK during the race?

 

Mark Webber was surprised as he believed the regulations require the cars must only be able to started by an external starter.

 

cool, then Mark Webber isn't paying attention. Sainz has done it, twice. Palmer has also done it twice. Grosjean has done it too, once.

[Boing 2]

Starter motors were ever outlawed they  just weren't put on the car because it saved weight.

[Youichi]

Is this not compulsary in WEC/LMP1 ?

 

I believe they have to run the entire pitlane on electric KERS-K, and can only fire-up the ICE when at pit-exit.

 

I also seem to remember a discussion about applying this rule in F!, but there was concern about silent cars in pitlane.

[EthanM]

Is this not compulsary in WEC/LMP1 ?

 

I believe they have to run the entire pitlane on electric KERS-K, and can only fire-up the ICE when at pit-exit.

 

I also seem to remember a discussion about applying this rule in F!, but there was concern about silent cars in pitlane.

 

 

yup, the original 2014 regs mandated electric propulsion only in the pitlane. But afaik the main reason was that all three engine manufacturers didn't really want the aditional cost of developing the systems (and vaguely said it was dangerous to have fast silent cars in the pitlane) so it got 86ed

[Mat13]

Is this not compulsary in WEC/LMP1 ?

I believe they have to run the entire pitlane on electric KERS-K, and can only fire-up the ICE when at pit-exit.

I also seem to remember a discussion about applying this rule in F!, but there was concern about silent cars in pitlane.

I seem to remember only Toyota running full electric in the pit lane- happy to be corrected though.

[FPV GTHO]

From what ive gathered, Mercedes didnt implement this 2014-2016 and im not sure about Honda 2015-2016.

[quickshift]

lets remember there are two rules covering starting the car not one

one states that a car cannot have outside help in being started 

To stop such things as stewards bump starting a stalled car.

 

This however ensures the second rule is required so that the teams can legally start a car when required such as 1 min before lights out on the grid.

 

I am not aware of any rule that forbids on-board starters and lets not forget they used to be fitted c/w heavy batteries,

before going the the air powered (on board) units. 

 

IMHO the only reason(s) that starter motors are not put on cars were weight and reliability.

as under normal circumstances who would want to carry perhaps tens of kilos of extra weight which hopefully would never be needed

However now we do have in effect via MGU-K a device that could also be used as a starter.

So why not use it if required it breaks no rules i am aware of.

 

But yet again shows a possible side benefit of F1 tech going onto road cars no old fashioned starter motors

[tmekt]

Certainly a legal vagarity. Depending on the lawyer's interpretation "may be used" can be interpreted as the only way to start the car... "may" is sometimes interpreted as must (e.g., you may purchase a parking ticket from the ticket machines along this zone). It would appear FIA accepts drivers using the MGUK to restart cars during sessions and races... If a driver were to charge back to win after stalling their car in the runoff area, a mischievous rival could choose to protest the result, perhaps...

Looking at the tech regulations, they use the word 'must' almost every time they specify clear requirements so this specific rule would seem more explanatory in its nature. What the rule does explicitly deny is the possibility of using the device anywhere else other than the mentioned places (grid, pit lane, garage).

[whitewaterMkII]

Since these badboys run enough amps to light up Las Vegas, I think a bit could be used for getting the car the f*** out of the way without giving me conniptions...

[highdownforce]

Since these badboys run enough amps to light up Las Vegas, I think a bit could be used for getting the car the f*** out of the way without giving me conniptions...

 

Hell, the initial idea was for them to run the whole pitlane on electric mode alone... this shouldn't be a problem.