It seems from observations so far, that the most striking comparison between Ferrari and Mercedes is that Ferrari has a strong front end, and Mercedes a strong rear end in terms of vehicle dynamics. It may be that Mercedes need to tweak setup and there are a lot of other unknowns, but fundamental car characteristics tend not to alter massively throughout the season. So it could be that the outcome of the Ferrari vs Mercedes battle could be dictated by the proportion of front limited vs rear limited tracks, and how often these cars as caught in traffic as the front seems to wash out less in traffic when the Ferrari is behind. Does anyone have an idea what the proportion is?
Front vs Rear Limited Tracks in Title Battle
Started by
Will
, Mar 27 2017 13:11
10 replies to this topic
#3
Jordan44
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Posted 27 March 2017 - 13:19
Mercedes design their car to be as efficient as possible at the average race track whereas other teams like Red Bull like to specialise. Not sure about Ferrari.
As Marklar said most tracks are rear limited so this makes sense.
Edited by Jordan44, 27 March 2017 - 13:20.
#4
Will
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Posted 27 March 2017 - 13:22
Phew so hopefully should be a close battle- got to factor in the occasional bad start/issue resulting in traffic being a problem which Ferrari might cope better with
#5
Seanspeed
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Posted 27 March 2017 - 13:41
Most are rear limited
Most *were* rear limited. With cheese tires.
It's possible that this will change. Not necessarily that more will become front-limited, but that tire usage may not be quite as 'limiting' at certain tracks with everybody generally able to get a lot out of them. Especially as they understand them more and get better at managing them.
I also think there's less value in being able to make them last a long time under regulations that make track position king and overtaking extremely difficult. Pitting late in previous seasons meant giving up some track position to those pitting earlier, but also being much quicker once you come out of the pits. Well, this is not so useful when having 5-10 laps fresher tires still isn't enough to get you past a competitor. If you have to make up positions on-track to get where you want/need to be, you might be in trouble at a lot of tracks.
Edited by Seanspeed, 27 March 2017 - 13:44.
#6
haryantofan666
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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:00
It seems from observations so far, that the most striking comparison between Ferrari and Mercedes is that Ferrari has a strong front end, and Mercedes a strong rear end in terms of vehicle dynamics. It may be that Mercedes need to tweak setup and there are a lot of other unknowns, but fundamental car characteristics tend not to alter massively throughout the season. So it could be that the outcome of the Ferrari vs Mercedes battle could be dictated by the proportion of front limited vs rear limited tracks, and how often these cars as caught in traffic as the front seems to wash out less in traffic when the Ferrari is behind. Does anyone have an idea what the proportion is?
You mean the other way around right? Watch some onboards. Mercedes has a stronger front end, and the Ferrari seems to have a good rear end, but that could also be down to the drivability of the engine.
But what does this have to do with front and rear limited tracks? Since overtaking is pretty much impossible, the battle will be decided in qualifying. Who cares about dialing in some under or oversteer because the track is front or rear limited? Track position is key and the tyres will last anyway.
#7
Kelateboy
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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:34
Shanghai and Barcelona are front-limited tracks. I believe the other tracks are either rear limited or neutral.
#8
subh
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Posted 14 October 2019 - 11:59
Would someone be so good as to explain what these terms mean? How do you determine whether a circuit is front limited or rear limited? Can you give examples from the list of current F1 tracks? Thanks very much.
#9
Lights
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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:25
It comes down to where critical time is gained on a lap.
If a circuit has a lot of hairpins, slow corners, and long straights, while having few high speed corners, it's rear limited because the focus of a quick lap should be on having grip at corner exits.
If a circuit has a lot of high speed corners, especially those with a long radius, while having relatively few low speed traction zones, it's front limited because the focus should be cornering speeds and having grip on corner entry.
Because of the stress on the tires on these particular parts of the circuit, the front or rear tires will heat and wear more than you want and start sliding, creating the terms front/rear limited.
Good examples of rear limited tracks are Austria, Bahrain, Canada.
Front limited tracks are probably Barcelona, China, maybe Silverstone.
#10
dissident
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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:42
It comes down to where critical time is gained on a lap.
If a circuit has a lot of hairpins, slow corners, and long straights, while having few high speed corners, it's rear limited because the focus of a quick lap should be on having grip at corner exits.
If a circuit has a lot of high speed corners, especially those with a long radius, while having relatively few low speed traction zones, it's front limited because the focus should be cornering speeds and having grip on corner entry.
Because of the stress on the tires on these particular parts of the circuit, the front or rear tires will heat and wear more than you want and start sliding, creating the terms front/rear limited.
Good examples of rear limited tracks are Austria, Bahrain, Canada.
Front limited tracks are probably Barcelona, China, maybe Silverstone.
This.
Simplified:
- front limited: lots of time spent cornering (long corners)
- rear limited: lots of traction zones (slow, sharp turns)
#11
subh
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Posted 15 October 2019 - 14:55
Thank you for these answers. I read an article where Jenson Button comments on some of his F1 team-mates, and he mentions how, in 2013, he was surprised by Sergio Pérez:
“The one that surprised me the most was probably Checo. It was his speed and how on certain days he could be very quick. Certain circuits didn’t work for him, circuits that had front-limitation didn’t work for him, but circuits that had rear-limitation, like Bahrain, worked very well for him and he was extremely quick. I don’t know if he actually understood why that was but that’s the way it was for him. To see how quick he was on circuits that had rear-limitation, that surprised me and surprised me more than any other team-mate, his speed on those circuits.” It seems like an interesting insight. I would assume that Monaco, where Pérez has always looked quick, and street circuits in general, would be included in the rear limited category. Anyone feel like dividing the 2013 circuits into front and rear limited groups?
Full article: https://www.crash.ne...ised-me-most-f1
