3999 replies to this topic

[Seanspeed]

Ferrari has had the same problem (since 2009). Can't develop a car in season to save their lives. They were blown away by Red Bull/ McLaren during in season development and the same since Merc domination. They outperformed in those years given the cars they had. The real problem is year after year the designers, engineers etc are not good enough, but no one will talk about that.

Ferrari was just as far ahead of everybody this last race as they've been most all season.  It's just Mercedes have kicked it up an extra gear we didn't realize they had.  Merc had clearly been underperforming in a number of cases beforehand.  Ferrari is still far and away ahead of even Red Bull.  So it's not like we're falling back due to poor development.  Our car just isn't as good as the Merc on a fundamental level.  We might be able to challenge here and there in specific situations that really suit us, but I think expecting we can fight toe-to-toe for the rest of the season is pretty much over, at least for me.  We couldn't tell much at Montreal due to circumstances, and Baku *could* have been a one-off, but Silverstone is pretty good evidence that Merc really have just put things together.  

[gramsy1977]

Plus it's your home race!!

Yes! Hamilton has a home race too. What's your point?

[hodgy21]

Yes! Hamilton has a home race too. What's your point?

British support @ Silverstone +0.5 seconds

Tifosi support @ Monza +0.5 seconds

I think that was what he was getting at.

[nemanja]

Depends in how long the 8th ratio is.

Which non of us really know. Do you?

[Dabash]

Which non of us really know. Do you?

 

But Lewis does , which is why we should not discount what he said

[Dabash]

I know, right? Because it's not like Ferrari has an army of engineers that have been poring over all the data from their car since before it even hit the track at that corner telling them the quickest way through it with their setup, or two drivers that have done hundreds of races in their careers, with knowledge of their own on how to drive a car fast. Forget all that–Lewis knows better.

 

Well he did pole it 

[encircled]

Speaking of home race, a 1988 or a 1998 scenario at Monza would be nice for Ferrari.

Edited by encircled, 19 July 2017 - 14:56.

[nemanja]

But Lewis does , which is why we should not discount what he said

I am not going down that road again. Everything is already said about that. It just needs little bit of common sense...

[nemanja]

Well he did pole it 

He sure did.

[Dabash]

I am not going down that road again. Everything is already said about that. It just needs little bit of common sense...

 

I most certainly agree with that

Edited by Dabash, 19 July 2017 - 13:29.

[CountDooku]

Yes! Hamilton has a home race too. What's your point?

It is a scientifically proven fact that all Ferraris go 2 tenths faster at Monza.

[Nonesuch]

It is a scientifically proven fact that all Ferraris go 2 tenths faster at Monza.

 

On Saturdays, as well? Because that'd be most welcome.

[Wuzak]

It is a scientifically proven fact that all Ferraris go 2 tenths faster at Monza.

 

And then blow up so they don't have to pass tech inspection! 

[FastnLoud]

Problem Ferrari have is Hamilton not Bottas - Vettel can beat or match Bottas in Quali a lot of weekends and then they can use their race car pace.

[Enzoluis]

Speaking of home race, a 1988 or a 1998 scenario at Monza would be nice for Ferrari.

 

But probably that will happen in 2018. 

[AnR]

Problem Ferrari have is Hamilton not Bottas - Vettel can beat or match Bottas in Quali a lot of weekends and then they can use their race car pace.

 

But so far he's beaten both? Ferraris problem is not any other driver but keeping up with development

[Dabash]

I am not going down that road again. Everything is already said about that. It just needs little bit of common sense...

 

Just saw this little gem with Di Resta comparing qualy lap between Kimi and Hamilton at the British GP

 

if you go to 48 secs of the video as they go through copse, seems both Hamilton and Kimi both flicked it down a gear from 8th gear (Commentary provided by Di Resta)

 

so it seems its not only the Mercedes that shifted down a gear through copse, at least one of the ferraris di.

 

Make of that what you will

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=H7TNq0frOw0

Edited by Dabash, 19 July 2017 - 23:42.

[warp]

Just saw this little gem with Di Resta comparing qualy lap between Kimi and Hamilton at the British GP

 

if you go to 48 secs of the video as they go through copse, seems both Hamilton and Kimi both flicked it down a gear from 8th gear (Commentary provided by Di Resta)

 

so it seems its not only the Mercedes that shifted down a gear through copse, at least one of the ferraris di.

 

Make of that what you will

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=H7TNq0frOw0

 

Experience, driving style?

 

Surely, with different set ups Kimi will not drive the car as Seb would do.

[Dabash]

Experience, driving style?

Surely, with different set ups Kimi will not drive the car as Seb would do.

My point exact.

If that is the case between kimi and vettel as you mentioned above how come some could not accept it when Hamilton suggested you lose a bit more lap time if you go flat out through that turn.

It was called into question when he said it by some here.

The only thing we can go by is that both drivers who scrubbed speed into copse both qualified higher than seb

Edited by Dabash, 20 July 2017 - 06:51.

[Slowersofterdumber]

My point exact.

If that is the case between kimi and vettel as you mentioned above how come some could not accept it when Hamilton suggested you lose a bit more lap time if you go flat out through that turn.

It was called into question when he said it by some here.

The only thing we can go by is that both drivers who scrubbed speed into copse both qualified higher than seb

I would call it into question too. Assuming you arrive at the same speed you'll be faster if you keep it flat as long as you don't run wide. Some needed a small lift, some didn't, and I bet the difference was insignificant anyway... But if you can keep it flat, you will.

[FrankRoot]

My point exact.

If that is the case between kimi and vettel as you mentioned above how come some could not accept it when Hamilton suggested you lose a bit more lap time if you go flat out through that turn.

It was called into question when he said it by some here.

The only thing we can go by is that both drivers who scrubbed speed into copse both qualified higher than seb

 

We know also that Mclaren were by a margin faster in all turns than drivers that qualified higher. 

Going fast through turns is a huge mistake!!

[JRodrigues]

Speaking of home race, a 1988 or a 1998 scenario at Monza would be nice for Ferrari.

 

Let's hope it's not going to be a 1995 one.

[Grundle]

If Ferrari don't win Hungorarong they have no chance. The track is perfect for them.

[nemanja]

http://www.f1analisi...unit-e.html?m=1

 

I always thought that people here underestimate the importance of James Allison leaving the team. Not because of his TD role but because of his inside knowledge. And this is exactly what happened. As expected he was the one who blow the whistle on us regarding oil burning. This and FIA clamp on our flexy floor (because of which Ferrari now run less than optimal rake due to a problems with sealing the diffuser) hurts us a lot.

 

In a nutshell we are know 20Ps down compared to Merc PU and with compromised aero, especially at the rear. 

Edited by nemanja, 20 July 2017 - 15:24.

[shonguiz]

In hindsight, they have been very gentle with Allison.

[Nonesuch]

I always thought that people here underestimate the importance of James Allison leaving the team. Not because of his TD role but because of his inside knowledge. And this is exactly what happened.

 

Is this based on anything more substantial than the fanciful tales of the known lier Christian Horner, who attempted to peddle this theory back in Baku?

[nemanja]

Is this based on anything more substantial than the fanciful tales of the known lier Christian Horner, who attempted to peddle this theory back in Baku?

It is based on our loss of speed after Montreal, which is very real. 

 

''Then you get to Baku and completely changes everything: there is the now famous clarification from the FIA on the oil used as fuel , with the issuance of the Technical Directive of 2017 number 004, on request by Mercedes (James Allison)''

[nemanja]

In hindsight, they have been very gentle with Allison.

I thought so too. At least gardening leave should have been much longer. Till the end of 2017 season. Maybe even Ferrari didn't expect to be so competitive... Who knows? I guess they sympathize with his situation but it backfired big time now. I guess there are also some personal issues between him and Marchionne. 

Edited by nemanja, 20 July 2017 - 16:54.

[blacky]

I thought so too. At least gardening leave should have been much longer. Till the end of 2017 season. 

 

What's the difference? Would have told his new team anyway...

[Claudiu]

Even if we lose this year's championships (which we probably will) we will be super strong next year... it's been a long while since Ferrari had a stable development platform which can be used as the basis for further refinements and evolution in the following years.

By next year our PU should finally be on par with Mercedes - fuel burning or no fuel burning - and I'm sure that all the weaknesses on this year's car will be remedied next year.

The SF-70H is a sound car on the aero front... how long has it been since we could say this about any Ferrari? 2008 anyone?

I think that the future looks bright for us... that elusive championship will come sooner or later, I'm just happy that Ferrari finally have a good technical team and a good direction with the car.

We are also innovating for the first time in a long time.

In my hearth I know we have probably lost this year's race but we will be back with a vengeance in 2018.

Let's see what our final PU evolution will bring... hopefully by the end of the year we should have no deficit compared to Mercedes on the engine front.

We did have a mountain to climb compared to 2015/2016 so let's not detract too much from the amazing job done by the team with this year's car.

Gonna try to enjoy this year's championship no matter what happens and I hope to see a good progress from now and till the end of the year.

Bring on Budapest and forza Ferrari!

Edited by Claudiu, 20 July 2017 - 17:47.

[anyeis]

 

Kimi gains hugely at copse. I dont know what Hamilton is doing tbh

Edited by anyeis, 20 July 2017 - 18:02.

[FrontWing]

https://www.youtube....h?v=7e5ZWJ644cQ

Kimi gains hugely at copse. I dont know what Hamilton is doing tbh

Looks like he gains half a tenth at Copse then gets annihilated through Maggots and Becketts. The extra speed Lewis carries onto Hanger straight continues until Stowe and Kimi has loses 1.5 tenths.

Edited by FrontWing, 20 July 2017 - 18:27.

[nemanja]

What's the difference? Would have told his new team anyway...

When the season is over. We would at least have a fighting chance.

[nemanja]

Even if we lose this year's championships (which we probably will) we will be super strong next year... it's been a long while since Ferrari had a stable development platform which can be used as the basis for further refinements and evolution in the following years.

By next year our PU should finally be on par with Mercedes - fuel burning or no fuel burning - and I'm sure that all the weaknesses on this year's car will be remedied next year.

The SF-70H is a sound car on the aero front... how long has it been since we could say this about any Ferrari? 2008 anyone?

I think that the future looks bright for us... that elusive championship will come sooner or later, I'm just happy that Ferrari finally have a good technical team and a good direction with the car.

We are also innovating for the first time in a long time.

In my hearth I know we have probably lost this year's race but we will be back with a vengeance in 2018.

Let's see what our final PU evolution will bring... hopefully by the end of the year we should have no deficit compared to Mercedes on the engine front.

We did have a mountain to climb compared to 2015/2016 so let's not detract too much from the amazing job done by the team with this year's car.

Gonna try to enjoy this year's championship no matter what happens and I hope to see a good progress from now and till the end of the year.

Bring on Budapest and forza Ferrari!

Mostly I agree. But I need one good aero upgrade to be sure that this is good platform for further evolution. One thing that concern me a little bit is that maybe this year car was great out of the box but without much room for further development. We all thought its going to be great in this regard because it is a new platform but I am not 100% sold on this yet.

[nemanja]

Looks like he gains half a tenth at Copse then gets annihilated through Maggots and Becketts. The extra speed Lewis carries onto Hanger straight continues until Stowe and Kimi has loses 1.5 tenths.

And you think this is because of the donwshifting and going slower through Copse...?

[MastaKink]

Allison didn't do anything Cornebois hadn't already done the other way. Spilling the secrets of the team you just left happens all the time.

 

Meh.

[nemanja]

Allison didn't do anything Cornebois hadn't already done the other way. Spilling the secrets of the team you just left happens all the time.

 

Meh.

I agree. But gardening leave could be longer. That's all I'm saying really. And I really believe they did not expect him to go to Merc. Just my 2 cents.

[Seanspeed]

Problem Ferrari have is Hamilton not Bottas - Vettel can beat or match Bottas in Quali a lot of weekends and then they can use their race car pace.

Going by Silverstone, it doesn't seem like it matters who is driving the car.  Merc was more than a second faster in race pace when they needed to be.  Bottas on *extremely* old soft tires was matching Vettel's pace on new softs.  No driver can overcome that kind of gap.  

 

Hungary will be the last bastion of hope, I think.  If Merc continue to dominate, they'll have bested us at a pretty large variety of tracks, indicating they've just got a much better all-round car.  

Edited by Seanspeed, 20 July 2017 - 20:07.

[Nonesuch]

It is based on our loss of speed after Montreal, which is very real. 

 

''Then you get to Baku and completely changes everything: there is the now famous clarification from the FIA on the oil used as fuel , with the issuance of the Technical Directive of 2017 number 004, on request by Mercedes (James Allison)''

 

But is there anything concrete (not allegations) as to James Allison being the cause of this request, based on him having specific knowledge of the Ferrari? After all, this issue didn't start there so other explanations seem possible. It's been a talking point in F1 for many months, after all. Indeed, before the season it was Red Bull who raised the matter at the FIA - then supposedly because it suspected Mercedes was exploiting the situation. Ferrari had nothing to do with it then.

[oetzi]

I'm going to dust off my tin foil hat.

IF there's anything in the oil burning story, it suggests that red bull's mole at Merc is high up enough to have heard oil burning was a thing, but not high up enough to know who was doing it.

[rodlamas]

 

Kimi gains hugely at copse. I dont know what Hamilton is doing tbh

Hamilton said it was better for them to lift at Copse and then use momentum on 7th gear in order to gain more time onto Becketts approach.

[nemanja]

https://www.motorspo...-rivals-934070/

 

Confirmation about loosing performance without flexy floor.

[FrankRoot]

https://www.motorspo...-rivals-934070/

 

Confirmation about loosing performance without flexy floor.

 

I remember seeing several pics showing that, at one point, most of the teams had cuts in the floor. Were they all removed? 

Edited by FrankRoot, 24 July 2017 - 15:56.

[nemanja]

I remember seeing several pics showing that, at one point, most of the teams had cuts in the floor. Were they all removed? 

Don't think so. Only Ferrari were flapping all over the place...

[FrankRoot]

Don't think so. Only Ferrari were flapping all over the place...

 

So we can hope they will soon introduce a structure that will be rigid but also able to retain at least part of the advantages provided by cuts, in a fashion similar to other teams.

[nemanja]

So we can hope they will soon introduce a structure that will be rigid but also able to retain at least part of the advantages provided by cuts, in a fashion similar to other teams.

We can hope but I think that loophole is closed.

[ArrowsLivery]

So we can hope they will soon introduce a structure that will be rigid but also able to retain at least part of the advantages provided by cuts, in a fashion similar to other teams.

 

They still have a slit in the floor, difference is that it is re-enforced with metal. 

[FrankRoot]

They still have a slit in the floor, difference is that it is re-enforced with metal. 

 

 

Got back to the picture. Actually, it seems to me that it's difficult to tell. Re-enforcements at both ends of the curved profile would suggest you're right, but I made a quick search and found this source saying they closed the slots

 

http://www.thechecke...ng-controversy/

Edited by FrankRoot, 24 July 2017 - 17:40.

[Dabash]

Interesting article from Mark Hughes  about the Mercedes and Ferrari and the subsequent FIA rulings and how it has affected both cars.

 

 

Link

[Risil]

New thread this way...