4547 replies to this topic

[garoidb]

To be clear, I think Alonso will want to get impressive results with Renault. I just don't think he will have a meltdown about not being able to compete with Mercedes etc (or getting a seat with them). He knows what he is signing up for. 

[ANF]

Before the lock:


Fast Forward: The 104th Running of the Indianapolis presented by Gainbridge

[Rinehart]

I don't get all the flack Alonso is getting (even though I'm not his biggest fan). 

 

He's been humble about his attempts, he says he still doesn't have enough experience, but the fact is he retired from the lead at his first crack so don't tell me it's not possible to come and win it. I think some people don't want that to happen, rather than denying the possibility. Le Mans is another of the triple crown and "outside drivers" regularly come in just for that race and indeed a couple of years ago Hulk won it the first time of asking. I don't remember reading about how arrogant he was. Fair play to Alonso for having a few cracks, I think the whole Indy 500 legend is richer for these kinds of attempts and I really hope to see more outsiders giving it a whirl in the future. It's interesting, that's all. 

[BRG]

I don't get all the flack Alonso is getting (even though I'm not his biggest fan). 

Yes.

 

Had there been an internet or social media back in the 1960s, I imagine that it would have been flooded with bile over outsiders and foreigners like that Gram Hill or Jimmy Clark turning up at the 500 and schooling the regulars.  

[absinthedude]

Yes.

 

Had there been an internet or social media back in the 1960s, I imagine that it would have been flooded with bile over outsiders and foreigners like that Gram Hill or Jimmy Clark turning up at the 500 and schooling the regulars.  

 

Damn that mustachioed limey for demanding doors on the toilets! They'll be demanding toilets for women at the Speedway next. And how dare those tennis shoe fag drivers say our Offenhauser engines are out of date?  

[KnucklesAgain]

I think he may reflect on that but many of the participants in the Alonso/Indianapolis 500 Mile Race threads don’t seem to reflect on that.  I would think he’s at least cognizant of it.  He’s a pretty sharp guy.  An apology either directly to them or through the media may help heal the rift.  After this many years that bridge may be burned beyond repair.  We hear “if only Honda wasn’t so vindictive”,” if only Andretti was able to follow through on getting him the ride”.  In that crowd it’s never Fred’s fault.  Imagine if after a crash like he had in practice if Honda had said “Alonso hit the wall, what an Indy Lights move”. There would be torches and pitchforks from that crowd even more so than now.  While Fred is free to say what he wishes it has consequences and in the end no one is to blame but him for his situation with Honda.

 

The difference between Kannan and Sato winning the race is they aren’t part timers showing up for a single race every year or two.  They have more seat time and work with the crews more so have a better bond particularly with the engineering staff.  In the modern era you can’t turn up for six days of practice and be good for the race.  It’s too competitive.  It’s not about the driver working with the car as it is the driver working with the crew.  The difficulty Alonso had isn’t with the fans or even the front line mechanics. It's with management and engineering and was well documented during his difficult times at Ferrari and McLaren.

 

The thread title needs to be changed to “Alonso’s excuses at the Indy 500”.

 

The bolded:  Difference being that Fernando did not say what he did because Honda had one engine failure in practice. A better comparison would be "imagine if after Alonso driving the car into a wall in every race for three seasons if Honda had said 'Alonso hit the wall again'"

 

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 27 August 2020 - 06:49.

[jonpollak]

Dunno if anyone here is interested in this but here's Fernando's full race in car.
(Audio, for some unknown reason, is Josef's )



Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 27 August 2020 - 12:25.

[Jvr]

I don't get all the flack Alonso is getting (even though I'm not his biggest fan). 

 

He's been humble about his attempts, he says he still doesn't have enough experience, but the fact is he retired from the lead at his first crack so don't tell me it's not possible to come and win it. I think some people don't want that to happen, rather than denying the possibility. Le Mans is another of the triple crown and "outside drivers" regularly come in just for that race and indeed a couple of years ago Hulk won it the first time of asking. I don't remember reading about how arrogant he was. Fair play to Alonso for having a few cracks, I think the whole Indy 500 legend is richer for these kinds of attempts and I really hope to see more outsiders giving it a whirl in the future. It's interesting, that's all. 

That is not a fact since he did not.

 

He was running seventh behind Chilton, Sato, Castroneves, Jones, Servià, and Hildebrand when he retired.

[ANF]

Dunno if anyone here is interested in this but here's Fernando's full race in car.

Worst formation ever at the start. Why did they drop so far back for so long?

[Ross Stonefeld]

You mean the line-up when it goes green? He's starting pretty far back, it's a long race, there's a ton of turbulence back there, and absolutely nothing to be gained by getting aggressive. 

[ANF]

Yeah, especially the last pace lap. Aren't they supposed to stay three-by-three? He leaves a two second gap to Pagenaud who is almost out of shot down the back stretch. Pagenaud too seems to have left a big gap.

[Frood]

Yeah, especially the last pace lap. Aren't they supposed to stay three-by-three? He leaves a two second gap to Pagenaud who is almost out of shot down the back stretch. Pagenaud too seems to have left a big gap.

It was the same at the front. Andretti, Dixon and Sato seemed to go early and caught the second row (Hinch especially) completely by surprise.

[Joseki]

I dont' think I've seen a proper "11 rows of 3" start at IMS in a long time. Race direction doesn't care much, drivers are looking for either a safe turn 1 leaving gaps of for bold moves going early.

[Claudius]

There was a suggestion on here that his Toyota contract was up to the end of June 2020 (I don't have a source). If this is true, and if it was an obstacle to a Honda powered drive, there is great irony in the fact that the pandemic caused the race to be delayed beyond the end of the offending contract.

 

On a separate note, if Honda were vetoing him purely on the basis of previous comments he made, it would be a very bad look for them. The whole attraction and popularity of motorsport depends on opportunities being loosely based on driving merit.

 

I don't think it would make Honda look bad at all. If they don't want to work with a driver, it's their right (assuming for a sec that is the reason for the veto).

There have been much worse scandals in motorsport.

[Bloggsworth]

Presumaby his clutch was working during qualify, so what was his excuse then...

[garoidb]

I don't think it would make Honda look bad at all. If they don't want to work with a driver, it's their right (assuming for a sec that is the reason for the veto).

There have been much worse scandals in motorsport.

 

Hypersensitivity to criticism is a bad look but that's not really what I am talking about. People follow motorsport to see competitive races between drivers and teams trying everything to beat each other. That starts to get watered down if certain options are off the table for reasons that are not related to racing merit. It eats away at public interest in the sport.

[garoidb]

Presumaby his clutch was working during qualify, so what was his excuse then...

 

So, if he gave an excuse he is a bad guy, and if he doesn't have an excuse he is a bad guy ... right?

[loki]

The bolded:  Difference being that Fernando did not say what he did because Honda had one engine failure in practice. A better comparison would be "imagine if after Alonso driving the car into a wall in every race for three seasons if Honda had said 'Alonso hit the wall again'"

 

When one is adulting words and actions can have consequences.  This is a consequence of that action.  

[Dolph]

Presumaby his clutch was working during qualify, so what was his excuse then...

I don't see a reason for this kind of condecending dismissive attitude. There were many past winners at the second half of the grid with Chevy engines. You'd come off as less of a jerk, if you'd have cared to follow any of the main talking points at Indy this year.

[Fatgadget]

I don't see a reason for this kind of condecending dismissive attitude. There were many past winners at the second half of the grid with Chevy engines. You'd come off as less of a jerk, if you'd have cared to follow any of the main talking points at Indy this year.

Why is anyone that is not partial to Alonsos exploits considered condescending and dismissive  and a jerk?

[Dolph]

Why is anyone that is not partial to Alonsos exploits considered condescending and dismissive and a jerk?

You got a quote or you just made that up?

[KnucklesAgain]

When one is adulting words and actions can have consequences.  This is a consequence of that action.  

It might be, though there are quotes from Andretti to the contrary. However, your "comparison" was completely off the mark.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 27 August 2020 - 16:32.

[Jvr]

Dunno if anyone here is interested in this but here's Fernando's full race in car.
(Audio, for some unknown reason, is Josef's )



Jp

Thank you for sharing JP, I did watch it.

Summary:

1. No race pace at all any time during the race. Cars passing left and right. Good chunk of the footage is used showing trailing cars since the ones ahead are too far away to even show on the onboard camera.

2. Clutch issue caused a long delay during that specific pitstop. Even the steering wheel was changed. 

3. Clutch issue thereafter had no impact on race pace (still poor) but the remaining pitstops needed a push start before engaging the first gear.

4. A great moment! A brilliant restart after Rossi's caution passing many cars beautifully but then, alas, race pace falling again into oblivion.

Executive summary: Meh.

[jonpollak]

My pleasure Jvr
Jp

[FLB]

Having seen some of it, the car doesn't look bad, just slow.

 

 

Which is worse.

[AustinF1]

Fernando Alonso: "I could be at Renault only two years... or up to five"

 

https://t.co/2sdPcj9LCK

 

It looks like he was fielding questions on Instagram. Interesting read, imho.

 

 

...

 

"I don't know exactly what I will do in the next few years, or how many I will race in F1 again. At least there will be two and I will still run one, two, three more or leave it after 2022. Then I will think about the next category", He says about a return to the Dakar or the Indy500 in the next few years, something that remains parked, as he confesses in a chat with his fans on Instagram.

...

"In 2021 cars will be an evolution of this year, so what we see every weekend we will see until 2022, unfortunately that is the sport. It is what happened when I left in 2018. But 2021 will be a good preparation for 2022 , that's the idea".

...

"Better than being three years away, I join the team and develop the car for 2022. 2021 will be a year of preparation, there are no goals as such. I am receiving a lot of support, I think people are looking forward to seeing me at Renault. another team might not be so keen. "

...

"It's something that has never happened to me since I was 13 years old, Being able to have six or seven months at home to walk, see a new mountain, go away for the weekend, quite basic things that I have never done. It has helped me to recharge the batteries. After recharging the batteries, I'm ready to go back. "

...

Vettel and his situation at Ferrari. "I am choosing the most difficult questions. It is a difficult situation for him, because this car is difficult. Other years they fought for the World Championship, and with a punctual error they could recover quickly in the following races, but this year they are struggling to enter Q3. They have had opportunities other years to fight for the World Cup, but few, you have to be honest and see the dominance of Mercedes. From my experience, racing for that team is unmatched and for life, regardless of the results, Being a Ferrari Driver is fantastic and Seb will have a positive experience. "

...

Edited by AustinF1, 28 August 2020 - 15:09.

[loki]

He’s eligible for parole in two years but the maximum sentence could be five years.  Got it...

[AustinF1]

We'll see. Who knows what will happen ...

[jonpollak]

He’s eligible for parole in two years but the maximum sentence could be five years. Got it...

Best post on this subject yet.
Jp

[AustinF1]

Missed this earlier. Alonso seems chock full of reverence for the experience of racing at Indy, imho.

 

 

Fernando Alonso on 'world's craziest race' after Indy 500 finish https://www.skysport...indy-500-finish

 

 

Fernando Alonso said it was a privilege to simply take part in the world's "craziest race" as he completed the Indy 500 for the first time, albeit in a lapped 21st place.

...

"This is one of the biggest experiences for a driver. The adrenaline, the danger, the history, speed.

 

"We wanted to be fighting for the win, but we did not have the pace and I still do not have the experience needed.

...

"We probably could fight for top 10 but we did not have the luck either (or the clutch…) but those 200 laps were so intense that you enjoy every second behind the wheel.

 

"Being one of the cars out there already has to be a privilege, doing what we love to do."

...

"This is the craziest race of the world."

...

"We finished the race without the clutch, so from that point on every pit stop we had to push the car, engage the gear and go," he said. "That cost us a lap and unfortunately, we kept that lap down until the end and we could not achieve anything more.

 

"I'm happy to finish the race, cross the line and have one 500 miles in the pocket, that's the positive thing. The negative is that we were out of contention very quickly with the clutch problem."

 

[Lerdes]

Missed this earlier. Alonso seems chock full of reverence for the experience of racing at Indy, imho.


Fernando Alonso on 'world's craziest race' after Indy 500 finish https://www.skysport...indy-500-finish

What a humble and nice guy he is! ;-)

Edited by Lerdes, 29 August 2020 - 18:01.

[AustinF1]

Wickens on O’Ward, Askew, Alonso and the rise of Arrow McLaren SP

https://www.motorspo...ren-sp/4866620/

 

 

...

DML: How do you assess Alonso’s performance at Indy this year?

 

RW: I think that crash toward the end of Day 2 was tough. It not only loses you track time but also the car that you roll out at the start of practice is the best it’s going to be in terms of parts. So when you have an accident, yes, you can replace everything to return the car to what appears to be an equal level to what he had before, but the parts won’t have been polished and loved on for countless hours to make sure it’s absolute perfection and that the body fit is immaculate, like the original car will have been.

 

So you’ll have a little bit more drag, you’ll a little bit less underwing downforce so you have to run a little bit more topside downforce to compensate, so that further increases the drag. You’re talking tiny amounts but they all add up, and in a field so close, that hurts.

 

I think everyone including Fernando knew that after that crash, we’d be lucky to get him back to within 1mph of where he was before. And looking at the data, we could see his car was just a little more draggy than the other two cars. They did a good job in qualifying, did what they could, and then just focused on the race. But I think that day, as we saw, it was very hard to gain track position.

 

And then to add insult to injury, he had a clutch issue that prevented him from launching out of his pitbox so for the remainder of the race he’d have to get pushed and then select first gear, and so any plans to gain position in pitstops immediately went out the window.

 

So it was a character-building 500 for Fernando, but like he said, he was very happy to complete the 500 for the first time. He learned that the last quarter of the race is a whole lot wilder and he was able to experience that, and he’ll remember that for if or when he plans to try and complete the Triple Crown.

 

DML: How was he to work with?

 

RW: It was a pleasure. He has a lot of useful experience in motorsports, even within the 500. I’ve only ever driven with this team, whereas he had driven an Andretti Autosport car in 2017 and a McLaren car with some Carlin support in 2019. Obviously the cars were quite different and he was able to bring to our attention things like ideas of how to give the driver more feel, so the driver can better tell the changing balance across a run. Well, what he suggested worked and we made setup changes accordingly on all three cars. That was very helpful and interesting.

...

[jonpollak]

Thanks for these quotes Austin
Jp

[Claudius]

Hypersensitivity to criticism is a bad look but that's not really what I am talking about. People follow motorsport to see competitive races between drivers and teams trying everything to beat each other. That starts to get watered down if certain options are off the table for reasons that are not related to racing merit. It eats away at public interest in the sport.

 

Come on now, many drivers have been without a seat because other lesser drivers have(had) better contacts, sponsors and managers. That's reality in motorsport since ages back.

That an engine supplier doesn't want to work with a certain driver seems to trigger your hypersensitivity. Assuming that was the reason for Honda pulling out, I don't find strange nor scandalous. 

[garoidb]

Come on now, many drivers have been without a seat because other lesser drivers have(had) better contacts, sponsors and managers. That's reality in motorsport since ages back.

That an engine supplier doesn't want to work with a certain driver seems to trigger your hypersensitivity. Assuming that was the reason for Honda pulling out, I don't find strange nor scandalous. 

 

I don't assume Honda vetoed Alonso for one of their engines because of things he said in the past. There are other plausible reasons that would reflect better on them as supporters of motorsport. For me, what created the interest was Alonso racing at Indy. It made it a more interesting event for me. Even with Honda power, his chances of winning would not have been that high. It's the nature of the race. 

 

I stand by the wider point, more applicable to F1 and different drivers, that if manufacturers and teams are not seen to be recruiting the most competitive drivers available, interest in the sport will wane (further). Not because of one driver, or two. But what is the point of following a drivers career if their performances are not important to getting better drives and opportunities in the future? 

[Nacho]

Fernando Alonso Docuseries Trailer by Amazon Prime Video:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=WQkkp2nUbi4

 

Edited by Nacho, 14 September 2020 - 14:11.

[Dolph]

With hindsight had Alonso stayed in prototypes in 2020 he'd have won the Daytona 24 hours once again and Le Mans

[Rodaknee]

With hindsight had Alonso stayed in prototypes in 2020 he'd have won the Daytona 24 hours once again and Le Mans

Toyota never needed Alonso to win did they?  Today's headlines say "Toyota wins", that has to be better, and cheaper, for them than, "Alonso wins".

[AustinF1]

Toyota never needed Alonso to win did they?  Today's headlines say "Toyota wins", that has to be better, and cheaper, for them than, "Alonso wins".

Whether they needed him or not, they got a massive amount of exposure from having him in the team and from the Dakar run.

[AustinF1]

Fernando Alonso Docuseries Trailer by Amazon Prime Video:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=WQkkp2nUbi4

 

"I prefer F1".

[jonpollak]

Well... He IS the threads most interesting man.
Jp

[loki]

[Dolph]

Nope, he didn’t say anything.

 

Mario Andretti had this to say

 

“My son Michael will be delighted to welcome Fernando back to the Andretti team.  He tried insistently this year to get him back with us but there was a problem with the engine.  All of this will be resolved next time” (google translate)

 

https://www.marca.co...3d648b4574.html

 

 

Doesn’t seem likely that Andretti will be changing their engine supplier soon, so maybe the issue that Honda had was more of Alonso being a Toyota driver up to this year. 

 

 

Well looky here. Kobayashi not welcome by Honda either:

 

Kobayashi has revealed that he was eager to return to WTR to aim for a hat-trick of Rolex 24 wins - only to be told that the team's new manufacturer partner Acura, owned by Toyota's arch-rival Honda, has effectively vetoed his appointment.

"It seems Acura doesn’t want me," Kobayashi told Motorsport.com. "The chance of being with Wayne Taylor Racing is nearly zero, so I’m considering what I’m going to do.

 

https://www.motorspo...mpaign=widget-6

 

 

 

Kinda confirms it to me that it was a Honda vs Toyota problem.

Edited by Dolph, 22 October 2020 - 19:57.

[prty]

Well looky here. Kobayashi not welcome by Honda either:

Kobayashi has revealed that he was eager to return to WTR to aim for a hat-trick of Rolex 24 wins - only to be told that the team's new manufacturer partner Acura, owned by Toyota's arch-rival Honda, has effectively vetoed his appointment.
"It seems Acura doesn’t want me," Kobayashi told Motorsport.com. "The chance of being with Wayne Taylor Racing is nearly zero, so I’m considering what I’m going to do.

https://www.motorspo...mpaign=widget-6



Kinda confirms it to me that it was a Honda vs Toyota problem.

Yep, there are a lot of vocal naive people that go around posting and believing in "burned bridges" when they see an Alonso thread, but the reality is, like in any business, all those GP2 comments and similar issues from the past are non important at all if having the driver benefits your company or team.
It couldn't have been worse at McLaren in 2007 yet Ron Dennis offered Alonso another contract at the end of 2007, and then hired him again years later, that should be telling enough.

Edited by prty, 22 October 2020 - 21:26.

[Dolph]

Yep, there are a lot of vocal naive people that go around posting and believing in "burned bridges" when they see an Alonso thread, but the reality is, like in any business, all those GP2 comments and similar issues from the past are non important at all if having the driver benefits your company or team.
 

 

...unless he drives for Toyota. Then he must be blocked at all levels. Its just a different version of a grudge, isn't it. Its not "Alonso said bad things about us", instead its "Alonso drives for Toyota in another series where we don't compete and we hate Toyota, so we put the kibosh on him and would rather hand him over to our rivals at Indycar than have him drive for us"

Edited by Dolph, 22 October 2020 - 21:52.

[prty]

...unless he driver for Toyota. Then he must be blocked at all levels. Its just a different version of a grudge, isn't it. Its not "Alonso said bad things about us", instead its "Alonso drives for Toyota in another series where we don't compete and we hate Toyota, so we put the kibosh on him"

Having a Toyota driver driving for Honda is not benefitial in terms of marketing for Honda. Again, it's not grudges, but what is best from the business perspective.
Horner laughing and making pictures together with Abiteboul last GP... more examples are needed?

[Dolph]

Having a Toyota driver driving for Honda is not benefitial in terms of marketing for Honda. Again, it's not grudges, but what is best from the business perspective.
Horner laughing and making pictures together with Abiteboul last GP... more examples are needed?

 

 

I don't see how its better marketing for Honda if the headline says "Alonso completes the triple crown with SPAM Chevy" instead of "Alonso completes the triple crown with Andretti-Honda" 

 

As far as I can tell Andretti put a lot of effort into making the Honda deal work, but was blocked. It was not a matter of "We don't see how Alonso would be benefitial for us marketing wise", it was more like "Even though you have the funding in place and everything is set to go Alonso is not driving for us this year. Period!"

Edited by Dolph, 22 October 2020 - 22:02.

[garoidb]

I don't see how its better marketing for Honda if the headline says "Alonso completes the triple crown with SPAM Chevy" instead of "Alonso completes the triple crown with Andretti-Honda" 

 

As far as I can tell Andretti put a lot of effort into making the Honda deal work, but was blocked. It was not a matter of "We don't see how Alonso would be benefitial for us marketing wise", it was more like "Even though you have the funding in place and everything is set to go Alonso is not driving for us this year. Period!"

 

Toyota would also claim a leg of that triple crown (correctly) and would no doubt promote it accordingly, particularly over the longer term. Look what Honda got instead - a second Sato Indy 500 win.