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840 HP Dodge SRT Demon: Why?


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#1 Magoo

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 13:33

Dodge boss Tim Kuniskis explains the rationale, such as it is, for a passenger car with 840 hp. Also, a bit of McG's take on the matter. 

 

 

 

 

https://macsmotorcit...nger-srt-demon/     

 

 

 

 

 



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#2 Canuck

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 17:35

What a time to be car enthusiast. 9-second cars on the showroom floor.



#3 Marc Sproule

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 03:20

sorry for being so cynical but...

 

sounds like somebody's way of thinning out the gene pool.



#4 Magoo

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 03:59

Realistically, most of the buyers will not possess the skill to drive these cars to their full potential. They can't be driven at full chat on the road, and they can't race in NHRA without a roll cage. Looks like the cars are mainly for the old fat guys in gold chains, and they won't put cages in them because it degrades the "investment value." Maybe the production muscle car has finally jumped the shark. 


Edited by Magoo, 14 April 2017 - 03:59.


#5 Marc Sproule

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 05:06

or perhaps.....

 

they will be purchased by the wise ones who will put very few miles on them and then sell them for exorbitant prices at one of those disgusting  "auction" sideshows that are polluting the airwaves so often these days.



#6 Magoo

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 15:19

or perhaps.....

 

they will be purchased by the wise ones who will put very few miles on them and then sell them for exorbitant prices at one of those disgusting  "auction" sideshows that are polluting the airwaves so often these days.

 

Exactly. 



#7 Canuck

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 21:08

Well....I'd hazard that not many more are capable of driving their Porsches, Lamborghinis, Ferraris...Taurus, Camaros, Mustangs, F-150s and so on and so on and so on, to their full potential. Admittedly this isn't the same thing as your mother's Camry, but it's no much different than the typical high-end sports car. It's already going to be priced such that the vast majority of those unskilled sans-culottes will never sit in the driver's seat.

#8 Bob Riebe

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:32

It is as practical as the old Hurst AMXs were.

It serves on point, they gained attention and if it serves as well as those it is successful

 

Now any street car with six hundred plus horse power is only a little less logical than a street car with four hundred and fifty horse power.

Both can accelerate and reach top speeds that will kill quickly if something goes wrong but the buyers are usually not the type who go that fast, or if they do, really do not give a damn about possibilities.

I passed a special model hot Mustang the other day who was going fifty miles an hour on a highway with little traffic and a sixty miles an hour speed limit.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 15 April 2017 - 01:34.


#9 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 14:57

Dodge boss Tim Kuniskis explains the rationale, such as it is, for a passenger car with 840 hp. Also, a bit of McG's take on the matter. 

 

 

 

 

https://macsmotorcit...nger-srt-demon/     

My exact thoughts as well. On drag radials it will have a few passes before the tyres go hard,, and the rain,,,,,an accident waiting to happen.

Is there a factory hot rod class these days?



#10 Magoo

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 13:37

Well....I'd hazard that not many more are capable of driving their Porsches, Lamborghinis, Ferraris...Taurus, Camaros, Mustangs, F-150s and so on and so on and so on, to their full potential. Admittedly this isn't the same thing as your mother's Camry, but it's no much different than the typical high-end sports car. It's already going to be priced such that the vast majority of those unskilled sans-culottes will never sit in the driver's seat.

 

The exotic sports cars are capable of going around corners, driving in the wet, etc. The Demon has drag radials on the rear and weighs 4300 lbs. On the plus side, a day at the Bondurant School is included in the list price. 



#11 Magoo

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 13:39

It is as practical as the old Hurst AMXs were.

It serves on point, they gained attention and if it serves as well as those it is successful

 

Now any street car with six hundred plus horse power is only a little less logical than a street car with four hundred and fifty horse power.

Both can accelerate and reach top speeds that will kill quickly if something goes wrong but the buyers are usually not the type who go that fast, or if they do, really do not give a damn about possibilities.

I passed a special model hot Mustang the other day who was going fifty miles an hour on a highway with little traffic and a sixty miles an hour speed limit.

 

 

I don't really disagree but the Hurst AMX was a purpose-built drag car and wasn't recommended for the street. 



#12 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 21:24

I don't really disagree but the Hurst AMX was a purpose-built drag car and wasn't recommended for the street. 

Is the Dodge?  I would not recomend it,, except with a cage and pull 3-400 lb out of it,,, and then [having watched Hot Rod drag week} it is slower than a rusty Chevelle, far slower than a young chick in a Camaro or the crusty Nova. Or a dozens of other cars.



#13 Magoo

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:39

Is the Dodge?  I would not recomend it,, except with a cage and pull 3-400 lb out of it,,, and then [having watched Hot Rod drag week} it is slower than a rusty Chevelle, far slower than a young chick in a Camaro or the crusty Nova. Or a dozens of other cars.

 

 

Yes, the Demon is intended and recommended for street use, impractical as it is for that purpose. Drag radials, etc. 



#14 kikiturbo2

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 20:21

speaking as someone working in automotive marketing for the past 18 years Demon is a perfectly logical model for Dodge..

 

1. while we in the EU have some sort of trackday culture (which has given us cars like 911 gt3 RS, megane RS and similar) the 1/4 mile drag racing is a basic part of US muscle car scene and heritage

2. lots of drag strips in the us where you can use it, and on the road, if you stick to legal limits you will not be hampered by drag radials

3. most people cant drive a hi perf car on the road track anyhow.. but lots can put their foot down on a straight piece of tarmac (hence the popularity of 1/2 mile or 1 mile races in the us... (EU doesnt have the facilities for that also... but looking at the underground scene here it would be popular too)

4. it will, for the most  part, be a collectors car.. so not used much..



#15 Magoo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 00:39

Dodge could sell all 3600 copies at a 50 percent markup and it still wouldn't have a significant impact on the company's P&L statement. Meanwhile, it is still no closer to developing a passenger sedan that customers will buy. 


Edited by Magoo, 24 April 2017 - 00:39.


#16 Greg Locock

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:33

Frustratingly it's not that they can't. The Chrysler 300 was rather good in its own way. OK it was mostly obsolete Mercedes hardware, but it still hit a useful target. I'm less convinced by the Viper but that has some adherents.



#17 mariner

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 14:10

I'm glad Magoo posted this as i was going to as well.

 

Its stupid, insane, silly etc. etc - but it's also utterly wonderful IMHO.

 

I doubt that when emissions etc. started killing the muscle car way back that any enthusiast would have believed 840 reliable street bhp and a clean exhaust.

 

It,s faster in the 1/4 mile than a $2.5M Bugatti Veyron and as it  can't do 250 mph probably ultimately safer.

 

Itt is also the first road car which can pull a wheelie off the lights.

 

I also love the Dodge Advert . punch line - so fast its banned!


Edited by mariner, 24 April 2017 - 14:13.


#18 Magoo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 15:42

 

 

I doubt that when emissions etc. started killing the muscle car way back that any enthusiast would have believed 840 reliable street bhp and a clean exhaust.

 

 

 

 

In many ways, regulations are the best thing that ever happened to the American automakers. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming. 



#19 Magoo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 15:47

Frustratingly it's not that they can't. The Chrysler 300 was rather good in its own way. OK it was mostly obsolete Mercedes hardware, but it still hit a useful target. I'm less convinced by the Viper but that has some adherents.

 

 

So true.

 

With gasoline prices at historic lows and passenger cars rotting while trucks and SUVs fly off the lots, there isn't much short-term incentive to do a new car. By 2022 FCA will be renamed Jeep. 



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#20 Greg Locock

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 22:44

Probably the most valuable nameplate out there (oh all right I'm ignoring Ferrari), but FCA seem perilously close to diluting it. Mercedes? Taxis. BMW lost the plot 15 years ago. Porsche? fat old man cars (yes I'd have a proper one). Lamborghini have just been pumping out  less antisocial versions of the Countach (the definitive supercar in my opinion, all the others since are just a reworking or bling technology) for thirty five years now. 



#21 Bob Riebe

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 15:18

Question.

Up here in the Great White North, I have noticed that it took forty years for cars up to the seventies, to become full bore rust buckets, and even then they were ugly but solid,  with paint fading away but I noticed that the fwd crap-wagons rust to the point of becoming flexy fliers with in twenty some years, and the paint jobs , I hate plastic paint, keeps it color OK where there still is paint , though often it starts to look like the plastic covering on books fifty years ago where sun would eventually cause it to peel off, and where the paint color ain't a rust hole is.

 

In another twenty-thirty years, will there be any rolling relics on the road, like there were in the past or is that day gone ?

Are the only rolling relics in the future going to be only the big high buck rwd sedans from Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, etc.



#22 GreenMachine

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 21:57

Is that salt related Bob?

 

I am guessing the answer is related to weight reduction, and the special steel formulations used these days.  And speculate that if the guess is correct, even those will not be exempt, although people who can afford those cars (premium price at every stage of their life) can afford, and are prepared to pay, to keep them going.



#23 JtP2

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:41

Why? Because they can fit it with traction control and therefore bragging rights at the bar, not the undertakers.



#24 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 08:51

Probably the most valuable nameplate out there (oh all right I'm ignoring Ferrari), but FCA seem perilously close to diluting it. Mercedes? Taxis. BMW lost the plot 15 years ago. Porsche? fat old man cars (yes I'd have a proper one). Lamborghini have just been pumping out  less antisocial versions of the Countach (the definitive supercar in my opinion, all the others since are just a reworking or bling technology) for thirty five years now. 

Mercedes are defenitly taxis,, no end of them where I am at the moment in Spain.

Have not seen a BMW cab though plenty of diesel ones.



#25 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 06:29

Imo a sedan/coupe with 800hp+ makes more sense than a 1500 two seater Bugatti. At least you can fit your golf clubs in the Dodge (if your into that)

 

I really do not get the appeal with mid engine cars. A corvette is a super cool car in my book for this reason.



#26 mariner

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:54

Mat.s comment reminds me of what I thought was quite profound summary in a track test way back between a Lotus Elise and a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S- the really quick one.

 

The test was lapping a tight-ish circuit and both cars had similar times. The testers admitted it was in many ways a silly match-up but their point was two very different cars had similar times and the Cayenne did it by huge power and lots of chassis work and gadgets to keep its two tonnes+ in check.

 

At the end they made the observation that the "Porsche was very clever car but the Elise was a very intelligent one."

 

I though that was a good summary of the design philosophy of the Lotus vs Porsche.

 

Despite its insanity I think the Dodge is more intelligent than the Veyron because it achieves so much at so little relative cost , both in development and purchase price.



#27 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 17:21

That was sort of my pointm yeah. Most hypercars/megacars today is not that impressive. they are still heavier than a Mclaren F1 and they have smaller and more efficient engines. The Veyron has a 4xTurbo, W16 and 1000hp+ tonly 200hp+ more than the Dodge Demon with its simpler V8 supercharger, and despite the Bugattis full carbon body it is not any lighter. The only thing it does right is having 4WD


Edited by MatsNorway, 02 May 2017 - 05:58.


#28 BRG

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 16:46

The Demon is a muscle car so it is expected to have too much power.

 

The REAL question in why the new Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk needs a 707bhp version of the same engine in the Demon.  A SUV doing 3.5 sec for 0-60?  What is the point of that?



#29 MatsNorway

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 18:49

It got 5 seats and can pull a trailer(?) If you got the money why would you buy anything less. Fun to smoke the Porsche tractors without looking like one.



#30 Nathan

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 23:47

Imo a sedan/coupe with 800hp+ makes more sense than a 1500 two seater Bugatti. At least you can fit your golf clubs in the Dodge (if your into that)

 

I really do not get the appeal with mid engine cars. A corvette is a super cool car in my book for this reason.

 

Well to begin if you have a Veyron, Aventador etc., you probably have at least a sedan or SUV parked next to it in the garage.  I doubt too many people have to make the choice between A or B.  That leaves you with the uber-enthusiasts that can only afford one car, and buy an Elise or Coxster etc.  Such folks are clearly committed to having such a vehicle, and appeals are rather individual, aren't they?

 

I have a friend with a Gallardo, and being in that is something unique and thus special.  In the past he has had Viper's, C6 Z06, AMG SL, 60's muscle cars, and they all have their own coolness, but they don't compare to the Lambo, even though I view the car as a glorified Audi and not worthy of the Bull on the nose because the doors open funny.  But even sitting in it is so much different.  Because it's not a car you would want to use everyday (he has a Smart car for the 9-5 commute :drunk: ) it becomes for special uses, weekend drives, and thus something of an occasion.  People react to it differently.   It's exotic, it has quirks, and an exclusivity attached.  I see 3 Cayenne's a day going to work.  I simply didn't have the same all around experience with the others, even though they are competent heavy hitters. The wife/gf/kids/friends won't have the same experience going for an evening cruise in a Cayenne Turbo as they would a 911 or F355. I don't think passengers sit there and think "ok, but where will the groceries go?" So that's why I think mid-engine cars have their own appeal.

 

If I had $100k and could only have one car, I'd probably have a E63 because you can get comfort, utility and speed. But if I could have 2, then one would be a non-sport suspension'd, user friendly sedan or SUV, and the second something that is pure performance.  If you had more than 1 vehicle, why have 2 that are the same experience?


Edited by Nathan, 02 May 2017 - 23:55.


#31 MatsNorway

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 13:51

Exacly, it is subjective. The Demon is if you ask me quite cool looking with its flaired fenders. And it is truly a impressive piece of engineering with so much HP from a simple concept. Another fun fact is that there is more to go for the americans if they just embrace Turboes. Personally i find it strange that the Corvettes does not have a turbo engine yet. Perhaps it has to do with heat management?



#32 Greg Locock

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 21:53

Tires I think. There was a twin turbo LT5 in the works but it didn't go anywhere. Also a turbo V8 doesn't sound much different to a turbo I4



#33 MatsNorway

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 17:44

Surely firing order sets the tone? But perhaps stock mufflers+turbo does. If turboes reduces the noise you simply need less mufflers?



#34 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 21:42

Turbo LSs seem too sound like any other LS just a bit flatter in note.

Look at US and some Aussie drag videos on You Tube and there is no end of classic and not so classic powered product being raced. And a lot are faster than the Dodge and regularly street driven.



#35 Greg Locock

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 23:16

Most of the V8 throb comes from exhaust pulses (and it is quite easy to lose that noise). A properly designed turbo absorbs the firing order pulses (by speeding up and slowing down as each pulse comes through) so a properly optimised V8 turbo's exhaust will be throbless.


Edited by Greg Locock, 04 May 2017 - 23:34.


#36 404KF2

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 05:31

The old Corvettes used to overheat after a few minutes at 180 km/h even with under 200 HP, so perhaps it's heat management after all.  Or the kids who used to put baseball cards in their spokes to make noise grew up to like that good ol' redneck sound in their cars too and will sacrifice all to retain that sound.



#37 saudoso

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 10:11

Turbo LSs seem too sound like any other LS just a bit flatter in note.
Look at US and some Aussie drag videos on You Tube and there is no end of classic and not so classic powered product being raced. And a lot are faster than the Dodge and regularly street driven.


I just wonder what kind of warranty these custom built beasts have   ;)


Edited by saudoso, 05 May 2017 - 10:11.


#38 Marc Sproule

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 17:03

I just wonder what kind of warranty these custom built beasts have   ;)

 

just until the new owner drives off the dealership property.

 

:rotfl:



#39 saudoso

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 17:51

just until the new owner drives off the dealership property.

 

:rotfl:

Custom aussie drags don't even cross the door sill of a dealership, do them?

 

That's my point. It's a 9" car with factory warranty.


Edited by saudoso, 05 May 2017 - 17:52.


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#40 Bob Riebe

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 18:29

Guys did not put headers and collectors that ran along the door sill because they liked to burn their legs.

I had a Boss 302 with 3 inch exhaust pipes existing in-front of the rear wheels, while being attached to Thrush Stock Car mufflers, bolted to the headers, which were hollow tubes as I did not put the fiber glass inserts in, because it gave me a few more horses and I loved the sound which was copious till the tach hit the sweet spot and they quieted down a bit.



#41 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 23:59

The old Corvettes used to overheat after a few minutes at 180 km/h even with under 200 HP, so perhaps it's heat management after all. 

 

How old? 180 kph is barely 110mph, My 1980 Mini 998 cc auto, would cruise at 85 mph all day (at 5000 rpm), and not especially exotic more modern cars (eg the jag based on mondeo) will cruise at 240 kph all day.



#42 404KF2

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 03:16

In 1980 I was driving across West Germany in a new Renault 5 GTL, on an Autobahn run at 130-160 or whatever the car could muster.  A pair of mid seventies Vettes passed us on the Autobahn between the Ruhrgebiet and East German border going maybe 180 and about 15 km ahead both were pulled over, hoods open and steaming copiously.  The turtle won that race.  This was common knowledge back then, that the seventies Vettes were undercooled.



#43 bigleagueslider

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 09:03

I just wonder what kind of warranty these custom built beasts have   ;)

I believe all US production automobiles certified to operate on public highways are required to warranty the emission control systems for 5 years or 50K miles.



#44 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 19:34

The old Corvettes used to overheat after a few minutes at 180 km/h even with under 200 HP, so perhaps it's heat management after all.  Or the kids who used to put baseball cards in their spokes to make noise grew up to like that good ol' redneck sound in their cars too and will sacrifice all to retain that sound.

What rot. Chev small block engines have very efficient cooling systems, that with very efficient oiling is why they are the most common race engine in the world.

The big block too is as efficient just a lot heavier!

Vette radiators were at one time the rad to use for motorsport.

A 70s engine were gutless thirsty dogs but still had more than 200hp



#45 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 19:38

Most of the V8 throb comes from exhaust pulses (and it is quite easy to lose that noise). A properly designed turbo absorbs the firing order pulses (by speeding up and slowing down as each pulse comes through) so a properly optimised V8 turbo's exhaust will be throbless.

Most run more than one turbo. Though one often gets them into the nines.

Even twin turbos still sound like an 8, just more muted.

Go look at a hundred You Tube drag clips or just Hot Rod Speed week.



#46 Canuck

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 20:51

Hmmm...the boat anchor 305 in the 1984 Pontiac sedan that suffered under my teenage hands also had a tendency to overheat when pushed hard. It couldn't survive a 15 minute run at sub160 km/h speeds without turning on idiot lights and blowing steam.

#47 Bob Riebe

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 22:39

Well the 302 in my Mustang liked to overheat so I put in a massive aluminum radiator I bought from the Ford parts books when such items were getting very hard to find.

I do remember reading about the Sting Rays that a heavy duty radiator was recommended as being an absolute must with the big engines.



#48 404KF2

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 03:22

What rot. Chev small block engines have very efficient cooling systems, that with very efficient oiling is why they are the most common race engine in the world.

 

Yeah, but put it in a seventies Vette body and they overheat at speed.  It's common knowledge, as I wrote.



#49 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:01

Hmmm...the boat anchor 305 in the 1984 Pontiac sedan that suffered under my teenage hands also had a tendency to overheat when pushed hard. It couldn't survive a 15 minute run at sub160 km/h speeds without turning on idiot lights and blowing steam.

And what condition was the cooling system in? When the radiator core is full of rust and scale yet alone 'bad' coolant that chrystalises and blocks the radiator. Or bad thermostats that do not open correctly.

I sell radiators and hear this **** all the time. Or people want some huge radiator because their slightly modded engine has 'so much power' Meanwhile I run 6 litre race engines on factory sized radiators without problems. Even Cleveland lumps, about the worst cooled engines in history!

Aussie Falcons from about 90 on have a bad reputation for overheating. Actually all of the above is the case. The factory coolant was most of the problem as it chyrstalisied on the hot spots of the engine, around the exhaust valve and top of the cylinders etc. Get a warm dayand it flakes off and plugs the radiator. I have seen the crap that comes out of plugged radiators, scarey!



#50 just me again

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 16:35

Autoweek has done an article on the demon

https://twitter.com/...520467895345152