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Billy Monger - injury, recovery and return to racing


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#51 l12mcg

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:29

How long was Pasma stationary? There didn't seem to be any warning about his car sat there.


Someone above said he spun on to the grass and slid back into the track. The car in front of Monger seems to react pretty suddenly to it as well so if I was to guess it hadn't been on the track more than a few seconds not long enough for any safety procedures (flags, radio) to kick in or have an effect.

Edited by l12mcg, 16 April 2017 - 14:29.


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#52 ArchieTech

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:33

Don't know much about racing in these lower categories. Is HANS mandatory there as well?

I believe they mentioned this on Channel 4 yesterday, IIRC it is mandatory in all British motorsport now apart from historic racing if the belts won't hold it down correctly.



#53 HP

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:33

One of those wrong place, wrong time accidents. Scary.

 

Wish the best for both of them.



#54 Prost1997T

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:36

Well in that case there's not much you can do, if you're unsighted and nobody has had time to give a warning. Short of widening the track I don't see any easy way to avoid a similar crash in future.



#55 midgrid

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:38

There have been several near-misses at this point over the years. It's certainly one of the risk flashpoints in British motorsport.

#56 messy

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:38

When I first saw that I feared the worst, big time. Seeing him moving around in the cockpit and the updates since give me hope. Fingers crossed for him, thoughts with his family.

#57 ArchieTech

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:38

http://www.btcc.net/...n-park-circuit/

 

 

 

Monger has been carefully extracted from the car after suffering leg injuries, and has since been airlifted to the Queen’s Medical Centre in Nottingham for further examination.

 

Pasma was also carefully extracted from his car. He was fully conscious and immediately taken to the on-site medical centre. He has since been taken to the Queen’s Medical Centre for further assessment.

 



#58 johnmhinds

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:39

Break down of the video frame by frame:

 

http://imgur.com/a/UVHci

 

Looks like you can see his knee is pushed back and up against the top of the tub so he is likely to have some severe leg injuries.



#59 Wolbo

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:39

I believe they mentioned this on Channel 4 yesterday, IIRC it is mandatory in all British motorsport now apart from historic racing if the belts won't hold it down correctly.

 

Good to hear. His head moves forward so much, almost touching the steering wheel, that I was not sure. Hopefully this will be another case of a driver's live being saved by HANS.

 

Also noticed his visor was knocked open by the crash / debris.



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#60 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:43

Break down of the video frame by frame:

 

http://imgur.com/a/UVHci

 

Looks like you can see his knee is pushed back and up against the top of the tub so he is likely to have some severe leg injuries.

Yeah I noticed that in the video when I slowed it down. As a first responder I would have to immediately suspect head and spine injuries, potentially life-threatening femur fracture, and upper and lower extremity fractures/injuries, as well as internal injuries. 


Edited by AustinF1, 16 April 2017 - 15:19.


#61 Pete_f1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 16:00

I'm hearing bad leg injuries have been sustained :(

#62 superden

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 16:15

I'm hearing bad leg injuries have been sustained :(


I read the same, though mainstream media outlets aren't necessarily to be trusted. It's not a surprise after that impact but if true poor lad.

Edited by superden, 16 April 2017 - 16:16.


#63 Prost1997T

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 16:20

I read the same, though mainstream media outlets aren't necessarily to be trusted. It's not a surprise after that impact but if true poor lad.

 

The series issued a statement saying the same thing.

 

http://fiaformula4.c...it/?tr=1016&sr=

 

 

Monger has been carefully extracted from the car after suffering leg injuries, and has since been airlifted to the Queen’s Medical Centre in Nottingham for further examination.

 

Pasma was also carefully extracted from his car. He was fully conscious and immediately taken to the on-site medical centre. He has since been taken to the Queen’s Medical Centre for further assessment.

 

Further information will be provided in due course.


Edited by Prost1997T, 16 April 2017 - 16:21.


#64 HP

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 17:11

I'm hearing bad leg injuries have been sustained :(

Might have been much worse though. Still possibly a career ending shunt.



#65 cpbell

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 17:37

Best wishes to both drivers.



#66 ANF

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 17:45

Horrendous accident. Let's hope he can make a good recovery from the leg injuries.

It reminded me of Peter Li's F3 crash at the Red Bull Ring in May. Li, by the way, made his comeback last weekend in Blancpain GT Series Asia.

#67 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 17:45

That's a horrible smash. Ouch.

#68 Prost1997T

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 17:48

Might have been much worse though. Still possibly a career ending shunt.

 

This car apparently meets FIA regulations. So I'm curious as to whether this results in any changes to the chassis. I've seen some hard hits in F4 (particularly in the German\Italian series) but this is the first time the cockpit area was compromised.



#69 thegamer23

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:00

The bad thing is that little to none energy was dissipated after the hit, it would have been better for the car to jump on the back of the other & roll over like Li's accident in Red Bull Ring F3 last year.

That's a huge deceleration too, along with the crash impact.

Fingers crossed

#70 A3

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:07

Hope he's ok. Almost 2 hours extrication time. Not good at all.


If anything I'd say it's a good thing. It means they probably successfully kept him stable for 2 hours..

#71 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:09

No, a 2 hour extrication is a very, very bad thing.



#72 Myrvold

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:10

No, a 2 hour extrication is a very, very bad thing.

 

While I do tend to agree with the general idea, we have no idea how the tub, legs etc. was tangled together, and with the other car at all.



#73 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:11

That is absolutely crazy, I'm hoping that he is alright because that looked devastating.

#74 A3

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:11

No, a 2 hour extrication is a very, very bad thing.


Ok thanks for explaining. Saying it twice must make you right. The very, very part did it for me though.

Edited by A3, 16 April 2017 - 18:12.


#75 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:20

Ok thanks for explaining. Saying it twice must make you right. The very, very part did it for me though.

No need to be nasty about it. I'd been trying to hold off, but I'll explain a bit.

 

In the fire service industry there's a standard (at least in the US, but it probably doesn't vary much) of 20 minutes 'on scene time' by which we want to have a patient extricated from a vehicle in which they are entrapped. This has to do with 'mechanism of injury' being so great in such a collision that it's very likely to result in critical injuries. Statistics show that in such situations, if we exceed that 20 minute elapsed time, the chances of survival for the patient decrease dramatically ... because after just getting them free of the vehicle, they still need to be 'packaged' (spinal immobilization, O2, etc) and then transported to the nearest, best ER so that they can begin true proper treatment. As long as they're stuck in the vehicle, the best you can really do for the patient is try to keep them stable while you get them out. Keeping such patients stable is almost always very difficult to do. We almost always get patients out well before the 20 minute mark, but sometimes things are difficult. Whenever I've been on scene at a pin-in longer than 20 minutes, we've always felt we were way behind schedule, things take on an even more urgent nature, and EMS Commanders and Fire Chiefs who are also there begin to talk on the radio with ER docs about taking some rather extraordinary measures to get the patient out. An extended extrication of this length frankly doesn't point to anything good. That said, hopefully he was indeed stable throughout the process and hopefully Billy's injuries aren't life-threatening and he makes a full recovery.


Edited by AustinF1, 16 April 2017 - 19:52.


#76 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:23

I hope they could administer some pain relief on site.



#77 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:30

I was there with my father today. It was bitterly cold and I had my hood up so I couldn't hear very well. My dad however heard the sound of the crash. The reports are true we watched the extraction take place over 2 hours, it looked truly terrible. My thoughts are with him his family and the team.



#78 Izzyeviel

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:32

The long extraction is good in the sense he obviously didn't have any brain damage or blood loss or other critical injuries. It means his legs are quite bad and they're worried about paralysis. IRC Johnny Herbert had a long wait, and that was with 80's knowledge. We know such more now, we are way more careful and sensitive about this kind of injury



#79 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:36

The long extraction is good in the sense he obviously didn't have any brain damage or blood loss or other critical injuries. It means his legs are quite bad and they're worried about paralysis. IRC Johnny Herbert had a long wait, and that was with 80's knowledge. We know such more now, we are way more careful and sensitive about this kind of injury

It actually doesn't mean any of that. While some combination of those things could be true, we can't make any of those determinations based on this info. FYI, we're always worried about spinal injuries and/or paralysis, even in much less severe crashes than this one.


Edited by AustinF1, 16 April 2017 - 18:49.


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#80 Bliman

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:42

That was brutal. I hope the drivers are ok.

So you see that the illusion of safety is very thin in autosport and bad things can still happen.



#81 loki

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:43

A two hour extraction is a huge issue regardless of the cause.  There is nothing good about it.



#82 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:43

It actually doesn't mean any of that. While some combination of those things could be true, we can't make any of those determinations based on this info. FYI, they're always worried about spinal injuries and/or paralysis, even in much less severe crashes than this one.

No one on the track had any updates. Local coverage seemed to want to cover over that it had happened at all.



#83 TheManAlive

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:52

No one on the track had any updates. Local coverage seemed to want to cover over that it had happened at all.


Pretty much always the case at the track unless they can say that all is well. The racing goes on. It's the way it has always been.

#84 ArchieTech

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:54

Pretty much always the case at the track unless they can say that all is well. The racing goes on. It's the way it has always been.

Yes and they are probably very cautious not to announce anything until it's 100% confirmed, because people would take that as an official source.



#85 Spillage

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 18:57

Bit concerning that there didn't seem to be any yellows. But that's talk for another time - for now, I just hope the young man is OK.



#86 Peat

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:02

Aren't the F4 a tube-frame chassis? Or was that the older MSV F4 cars?

Could explain the complicated extraction.



#87 TheRacingElf

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:14

Knowing the guy, although vaguely, makes watching that video even harder. Billy is still just a teenage kid, I really hope he will recover fully and won't have any permanent injuries.  :cry:



#88 superden

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:17

Bit concerning that there didn't seem to be any yellows. But that's talk for another time - for now, I just hope the young man is OK.


He was a matter of yards away when the situation presented itself. Yellow flags wouldn't have done a thing.

#89 Prost1997T

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:22

Aren't the F4 a tube-frame chassis? Or was that the older MSV F4 cars?

Could explain the complicated extraction.

 

It's a carbon fibre chassis built to FIA spec, but was heavily compromised in the collision.


Edited by Prost1997T, 16 April 2017 - 19:24.


#90 JHSingo

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:26

Been at Donington all day for the touring cars. Was in the main grandstand at the time, so didn't see it happen or immediately know how serious it was.

 

Only after coming out of the pit and paddock walkabout to find no racing taking place did we start to get concerned. And then, seeing the medical helicopter on track raised our worse fears. There was nothing said over the track commentary (as far as I'm aware of) to inform us of what the situation was.

 

Relieved to get back and find it's not as bad as we were fearing. That said, I hope the leg injuries are not serious and that he can make a speedy recovery. Best wishes, Billy.



#91 RekF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:33

Hope the kid survived. Terrifying crash.

#92 geordiecraig101

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:35

Just back from Donington and the crash was right in front of me. For a few laps before there was a light ran which made that part of the circuit a bit slippy and on that lap a few cars ran wide on exit of Old Hairpin but Patrik Pasma stayed on track but appeared to put his right rear wheel on the damp curb that is on the inside just up from the old bridge which spun him round almost on the spot. There was only about 2-4 seconds before the next group which included and un-sighted Billy Monger arrived. Hopefully that sheds a bit more light on what happened.  


Edited by geordiecraig101, 16 April 2017 - 19:38.


#93 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:41

Crash structures did not do the job there. Maybe FIA need to go back to the drawing board there.

#94 Clatter

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:44

Bit concerning that there didn't seem to be any yellows. But that's talk for another time - for now, I just hope the young man is OK.

There is a always few seconds delay between something happening and those on ground being able to react. I doubt there was time to get the flags out before the crash occurred.

#95 917k

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:44

Crash structures did not do the job there. Maybe FIA need to go back to the drawing board there.

 

Your talking about protection against intrusion from pointed bits like the transmission etc., and I don't think any structure could hold up to that sort of impact, IMO.



#96 Henrik B

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:44

In the fire service industry there's a standard (at least in the US, but it probably doesn't vary much) of 20 minutes 'on scene time' by which we want to have a patient extricated from a vehicle in which they are entrapped. 

 

You obvoiusly know much more about this than me, so I have to ask: Wouldn't the EMT team rip out the angle grinder and cut him out of the car much faster if they thought his situation warranted it? Two hours sounds like they were delicately plucking shards out one by one AND felt they had time to do so?



#97 A3

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:46

No need to be nasty about it.

OK, I'd been trying to hold off, but I'll explain a bit. In the fire service industry there's a standard (at least in the US, but it probably doesn't vary much) of 20 minutes 'on scene time' by which we want to have a patient extricated from a vehicle in which they are entrapped. This has to do with 'mechanism of injury' being so great in such a collision that it's very likely to result in critical injuries. Statistics show that in such situations, if we exceed that 20 minute elapsed time, the chances of survival for the patient decrease dramatically ... because after just getting them free of the vehicle, they still need to be 'packaged' (spinal immobilization, O2, etc) and then transported to the nearest, best ER so that they can begin true proper treatment. As long as they're stuck in the vehicle, the best you can really do for the patient is try to keep them stable while you get them out. Keeping such patients stable is almost always very difficult to do. We almost always get patients out well before the 20 minute mark, but sometimes things are difficult. Whenever I've been on scene at a pin-in longer than 20 minutes, we feel we are way behind schedule, things begin taking on an even more urgent nature, and EMS Commanders and Fire Chiefs who are also there begin to talk on the radio with ER docs about some rather extraordinary measures being taken to get the patient out. An extended extrication of this length frankly doesn't point to anything good. That said, hopefully he was indeed stable throughout the process and hopefully Billy's injuries aren't life-threatening and he makes a full recovery.


I have seen extractions like this when people were trapped in their vehicles, when in the end their injuries were severe, but not life threatening.

I have also seen accidents were they stopped the extraction process because the occupant had passed away.

If he got his legs stuck/punctured or whatever, they might have taken their time to minimize further damage.

#98 messy

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:49

I think all the forum point-scoring on extraction etc is pretty pointless given that we still don't know what the situation actually was/is here. We do know that he survived it, which is more than I expected seeing it initially. So thank heavens for that and hope he can return to racing one day.

#99 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 19:55

I have seen extractions like this when people were trapped in their vehicles, when in the end their injuries were severe, but not life threatening.

I have also seen accidents were they stopped the extraction process because the occupant had passed away.

If he got his legs stuck/punctured or whatever, they might have taken their time to minimize further damage.

Of course these are all possibilities, more or less. Anyway, I hope young Mr. Monger is resting at least somewhat comfortably right now and makes a full recovery!



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#100 AustinF1

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 20:01

You obvoiusly know much more about this than me, so I have to ask: Wouldn't the EMT team rip out the angle grinder and cut him out of the car much faster if they thought his situation warranted it? Two hours sounds like they were delicately plucking shards out one by one AND felt they had time to do so?

There are many different ways to approach an extrication, and no two are exactly the same. Different tools are used depending on many variables. While it's possible they were removing pieces of carbon fiber or other parts from the patient, that's really better done in a hospital environment after transporting the patient there as rapidly as possible. The imperative in the pre-hospital environment is stabilization and removal of the patient from the hazard, and then transporting them as quickly and safely as possible to a more controlled environment in which they can receive the best possible care. I'm sure the crews on scene did their best to balance all of these concerns.