33 replies to this topic

[aydincil]

BMW engine is so overrated. Barcelona is one of the fastest tracks and we've seen today how fast Williams were. Imola was a very slow track and they won the race. Williams is only strong when Michelin suits a track more than Bridgestone.

Here is my guess for horsepowers:

Ferrari: 840
McLaren: 835
Williams: 830
Honda: 810

[Rene]

On what information do you base your guess??

[Ali_G]

No no no no no

Williams pace today was a combination of 2 things.

For a start Michelin got the tyres all wrong and brought a compound which was much too soft. So all the runners are using very hard tyres.

Williams TC is not very good. They are having problems and their pace isn't very impressive at the moment.

Niall

[aydincil]

Originally posted by Rene
On what information do you base your guess??

You know, there something on TV every fortnight. I guess.. they call it a Formula 1 race. I based my opinions on that....

[Ali_G]

Yes, but the power of each engine can be measured by measuring the pitch of the sound coming off of it. BMW have the highest power even after this test.

Niall

[Jhope]

WOW, another pathetic thread...it's called the whole package...not just an engine.

If the engine is sooooo over rater, then why, my dear friend, did the BMW have the highest speed on the front straigh, by 10km/h?

[AD]

The BMW is by far and away the most powerful engine on the grid, and it's also the best. HHF said in an interview, that Jodan reckon that BMW gives out 850 bhp.

[slipstream]

I am sorry but the BMW Engine is not overrated, in fact I have heard that the BMW may put out as much as 870 HP for qualifying .Of course no one except for the people at BMW know how much HP their Engine really has but it is safe to say that the BMW is VERY powerful.

[cygnus]

Look at the 3rd sector time/speed's .... Montoya is 1st on the fastest section of the circuit ... and he winded up back in 12th overall ... i'd say that demonstrates some great power They just need to fix all of their other problems.

If BMW can carry all of that speed out of the last couple of corners .... they could easily pass people on the straight tomorrow.

[Sphinx]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Yes, but the power of each engine can be measured by measuring the pitch of the sound coming off of it. BMW have the highest power even after this test.

Niall

Are you sure about that? Listening to the onboard videos, the Jordan and BAR sound like their about to blowup they are so high pitched.

Or, am I not understanding you?

[Mrv]

Jhope 10km Faster down the straights than anyone else? That's bull check the trap speeds. Ferrari were neck and neck with BMW.

Some have said that Williams has the best engine, no way. Best engine is one that doesn't blow up every so often, and that is the 050. Reliabilty is much more important than raw HP. This is what makes the best engine. You have to have the overall package and not just an engine to be sucessful in F1.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Mrv
Jhope 10km Faster down the straights than anyone else? That's bull check the trap speeds. Ferrari were neck and neck with BMW.

Some have said that Williams has the best engine, no way. Best engine is one that doesn't blow up every so often, and that is the 050. Reliabilty is much more important than raw HP. This is what makes the best engine. You have to have the overall package and not just an engine to be sucessful in F1.

I'm pretty sure if you were to ask any team manager what engine he would want he would choose the BMW, not only because of the performance but because of it's potential.

[AD]

Mrv,

Reliabilty is much more important than raw HP. This is what makes the best engine

Somehow I don't think that Williams will be switching from their amazing BMW engine to an old Volkswagon desiel engine just because its more reliable and hence better in your opinion.

[Eau Red]

oh yeah well I heard BMW is switching back to their old 1984 engine which had over 1500 horsepower and the dynos couldn't even measure how much it really had blah blah blah.

[BMW_Power]

You obviously dont know **** about engines. The BMW is the most powerful engine in F1 but the engine isent e.thing. The aerodynamics play a major role in Barcelona.

[diosh]

Originally posted by Ali_G
No no no no no

Williams TC is not very good. They are having problems and their pace isn't very impressive at the moment.

Niall

A lot of the teams turned off traction control for qualifying runs, poorly developed traction control might have an effect on the race, but qualifying pace?

Originally posted by Ali_G
Yes, but the power of each engine can be measured by measuring the pitch of the sound coming off of it. BMW have the highest power even after this test.

Niall

Well, how can we argue against this? What about McLaren last year, don't you think that perhaps the exhaust might have some influence in what the engine sounds like? Even if the beamer does rev high, doesn't automatically mean it's the best. (Weight, centre of mass, power delivery, fuel consumption etc. are all important factors too.) Anyone trying to make estimates about horsepower using sound analysis is probably going to be out by quite a margin. There are too many varibles (aerodynamic drag, drivetrain efficiency, etc. etc. etc!) to make much of a decent guess at all!

[Rene]

aydincil I think my fellow board members have enlightened you to what I meant about where do you base this guess. I guess I should have told you to consider the whole package, instead of simply race results....most agree the BMW has the most grunt of all those on the grid, which is why I asked what information you were basing your guess on, perhaps you had inside information which we all would have loved to hear....

[bleakuzs]

Mario Thessien himself has said that the BMW is a little porky comapred to Ferrari, Merc, Honda, Cosworth, just becasue it has the most hosrepower, does not garauntee the best power/weight ratio.

Too many unknowns to pass judgement on the best engine.

If I were a team, I would really like to have that Renault, just a hunch.

[theMot]

Who cares. Thats only peak power and theyre not at that for that long. Ferrari still have the best engine in my opinion.

you all forget about the torque of the engine too. turque is more important on a race car than hp alone. Hp is what you look at on say a speedboat or speedway car.


and as if you could distiguish between 5hp with an engine producing over 800hp...

grow a brain please.

[klipywitz]

Good to see that many people came out and displayed some good common sense. Engine is not everything, but it sure plays a role; one must also consider the chassis which, at Williams, is pretty bad -- or, to put it better, not nearly as good as the Macs and Ferraris. Sometimes even raw speed on the runaways cannot be a good comparison tool, as different wing/drag coefficients in the cars can greatly alter that.

But one thing is certain: it seems the best engine out there. The superiority that it granted William in the last races was undeniable. Now that there are lots of turns, the Williams have fallen back...

Stop to think about it: it is incredible the peformance those engineers are getting out of a BMW engine on its second year! (return)

What an amazing crew at BMW!

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by klipywitz
[BStop to think about it: it is incredible the peformance those engineers are getting out of a BMW engine on its second year! (return)

What an amazing crew at BMW! [/B]

Well, its the third F1 engine they've made in the last few years. There's this season's, last season's, and the 1995 engine, which BMW did not avail to F1 teams.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Yes, but the power of each engine can be measured by measuring the pitch of the sound coming off of it.
Niall

This has been criticised but there is equipment that measure sound in order to estimate engine performance.

And don't forget Yamaha. They put their hopeless 2 stroke 250cc about 1970 Grand prix engine into their sound studio (who said the Jap's are not creative?). Yamaha make musical instruments of course. And aided by the sound, they came out with a very weird exhaust system. And then straight away, they won the world championship with a classic case of leapfrog technology.

Shame many of those F1 drivers and mechanics are poor of hearing though ...

[slipstream]

The Williams BMW may not be the best F1 car at the moment but The BMW is the best F1 Engine, better than Ferrari, Ilmor-Mercedes and Honda. It`s not just to fast trap speeds that make the BMW so good but it`s awesome Acceleration. After Imola Jarno Trulli said he was very impressesd with the Acceleration of the Williams BMW of JPM . Plus look at the way Ralf Schumacher is able to get off the line during the start of the races and power pass the other cars before the first turn, that takes traction and Horsepower.

[Daemon]

I haven't even tried to work out the points to date, had Montoya won in Brazil, but at a guess I'd say williams would be leading the World Contructors Championship, and if not, be running a very close second to Mclaren.

How ridiculous is that. Over-rating at its worst.

[Hooster]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Yes, but the power of each engine can be measured by measuring the pitch of the sound coming off of it. BMW have the highest power even after this test.

Niall

The power can NOT be measured directly by the measuring the frequency of sound coming from the engine. If this were the case I would simply up the reve limit on my road car to get more power. Sorry but it des not work like that. The engines top revs can however be measured by using this method. Top revs give an indication of how powerful an engine is but it is not a direct and absolute measure. All things being equal the engine with the highest revs is probably the most powerful but since when have all things been equal?

My response to the person who started this thread. What is your estimation :

("Ferrari: 840
McLaren: 835
Williams: 830
Honda: 810")

Actually based on? You said you watched the races. In order to estimate an enines power there is far more to take into account than simply lap times or sector speeds. You also need to factor in the cars aerodynamic efficiency, chassis and tyre performance. Can you analyse these factors simply by watching races aydincil? I can't and if you can I suggest you apply for a job as engineer with one of the top teams.

From what I have seen the Williams team can run with more wing than the other teams while keeping up close to the same top speeds. What does this tell me? It means Williams probably have the most powerful engine in F1 today. Why arn't they doing better in Barcelona? Probably because the tyres are not right.

[aydincil]

So, if you can't understand an engine's power by watching races, how can you people know that it's the best engine? Please try to be a little more intelligent when posting or you'll get refuted like this.

When Williams team are using a lot less wings than others they are faster on the straights and unexperienced people think it's the engine. Then because they are using less wings, people bump into them from behind and they can't finish races. So what's the point of this?

Apparently in hot weather Michelins are around 0.5s a lap faster than Bridgestones so when it's hot, Williams jump ahead. When it's cold like yesterday or in Malaysian race, they run like a turtle with their BMWs.

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by aydincil
So, if you can't understand an engine's power by watching races, how can you people know that it's the best engine?

So I can bring back my On engines and importance of the chassis... thread.

Please try to be a little more intelligent when posting or you'll get refuted like this.

The_Z_Man

[Hooster]

Originally posted by aydincil
So, if you can't understand an engine's power by watching races, how can you people know that it's the best engine? Please try to be a little more intelligent when posting or you'll get refuted like this.

When Williams team are using a lot less wings than others they are faster on the straights and unexperienced people think it's the engine. Then because they are using less wings, people bump into them from behind and they can't finish races. So what's the point of this?

Apparently in hot weather Michelins are around 0.5s a lap faster than Bridgestones so when it's hot, Williams jump ahead. When it's cold like yesterday or in Malaysian race, they run like a turtle with their BMWs.

There seems to be some sort of mix up here and I am sorry if my lack of intelligence is to blame. Since you are a new member here I suggest you read the rules governing this bulletin board. The various members intelligence is not the issue here but F1 racing is. Please stick to that in the future. If you don't you will soon see your posts being deleted and it could end up with your total disapearance from the board.

The mix up here is the distinction between guessing and knowing. I am not sure anyone here seriously believes he or she knows wich engine is the best in F1 but we are free to make educated guesses.

You say: "When Williams team are using a lot less wings than others they are faster on the straights and unexperienced people think it's the engine. Then because they are using less wings, people bump into them from behind and they can't finish races. So what's the point of this?" Please substantiate this claim.

Where did they use less wing than others? It has looked to me like Williams are the team using most wing of everyone. Look at a picture posted in an earlier thread here discussing exactly this subject. MS's and JPM's cars are shown side by side in the Brazilian GP. It loks like JPM's car has considerably more wing that MS´s.

In accordance to the rules of this board I shall keep my opinion of your intelligence to myself.

[Ali_G]

It like this. I meant that measuring the pitch of the engine would give you a good estimate of power.

Anyway its true for Mottie.

A good F1 engine should deliver good torque at low RPm. THis is where it is really needed.

A 3.5 litre engine delivering the same power as a 3 litre would destroy the 3 litre engine.

Niall

[Hooster]

"A good F1 engine should deliver good torque at low RPm. THis is where it is really needed."

It goes without saying that any engine can be considered good if it delivers good torque at the rpm's it is used. I was and still am under the impression F1 engines are run at relatively high rpm's. Is there any point in having high torque in a rev range the engine is not used in? Maybe you just mean low revs relatively speaking like 10.000 til around 14.000 in this case?


"A 3.5 litre engine delivering the same power as a 3 litre would destroy the 3 litre engine." Why?

I agree that measuring the pitch should give you a reasonable estimate of the power.

[Alfisti]

The engine is over rated. Sure it's strong but i don't htink it's as magic as peopel say. I think Michelin are doing a better job than people think and most of all ... i just think the Williams is a very good car. No way has BMW suddenly delivered the strongest engine by far in about 2 months.

[ray b]

lower speed acc rate should indecate power better than top trap speed as top speed is wing/drag dependent.say 45 mph to 85 acc times before wing drag is too much a factor.?
any good data on tork in 3.0 motors at high teen revs?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by slipstream
The Williams BMW may not be the best F1 car at the moment but The BMW is the best F1 Engine, better than Ferrari, Ilmor-Mercedes and Honda. It`s not just to fast trap speeds that make the BMW so good but it`s awesome Acceleration. After Imola Jarno Trulli said he was very impressesd with the Acceleration of the Williams BMW of JPM . Plus look at the way Ralf Schumacher is able to get off the line during the start of the races and power pass the other cars before the first turn, that takes traction and Horsepower.

Slipstream I very much agree about the start acceleration,and they've done it with lots of fuel. There may have been a tyre and TC / engine management factor but I think its been the engine. Same again for Spain at the start, although the advantage was much less ...

[Hooster]

Originally posted by aydincil
So, if you can't understand an engine's power by watching races, how can you people know that it's the best engine? Please try to be a little more intelligent when posting or you'll get refuted like this.

When Williams team are using a lot less wings than others they are faster on the straights and unexperienced people think it's the engine. Then because they are using less wings, people bump into them from behind and they can't finish races. So what's the point of this?

Apparently in hot weather Michelins are around 0.5s a lap faster than Bridgestones so when it's hot, Williams jump ahead. When it's cold like yesterday or in Malaysian race, they run like a turtle with their BMWs.

aydincil??? Where are you now? Preparing your next great refute?