61 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

South Africa sort of proves my point though.  It was because he gave Piquet room.  Playing the numbers.  Had he tried to fight Piquet by keeping on his own line they could both have gone off.  So he went a wheel to the inside, dirt, air under the skirt...and of course we know now the Brabham was significantly underweight.

 

Don't remember the Long Beach spin but that was the trick wing.  Pironi did spin there - and retired. 

[chunder27]

Lol Don't think it was the trick wing, probably more to do with Villanova exuberance more than anything else, he still finished on the podium in reality.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that Pironi had the upper hand regularly on Gilles, but Gilles was not some freak that was never beaten by any team-mate.  Didier was pushing him, and the fact was that Gilles had gone out of his way to help him in the past and even asked the media to go easy on him after that huge testing crash at Ricard was it?

 

So this allied to all the Imola stuff helped to crystallise his feeling of total betrayal, something a team-mate had never done to him before.

And because we all know his feelings it is easy to pain Pironi as the villain.

 

They were different souls, Pironi was only interested in wining the title, Gilles in winning races. Pironi was very ambitious, Gilles less so and more about the show and his toys!!  He knew where he stood with Carlos, Jody et al. And this was the first time he had in his eyes been shafted.

[jrv_t644e]

Lol Don't think it was the trick wing, probably more to do with Villanova exuberance more than anything else, he still finished on the podium in reality.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that Pironi had the upper hand regularly on Gilles, but Gilles was not some freak that was never beaten by any team-mate.  Didier was pushing him, and the fact was that Gilles had gone out of his way to help him in the past and even asked the media to go easy on him after that huge testing crash at Ricard was it?

 

So this allied to all the Imola stuff helped to crystallise his feeling of total betrayal, something a team-mate had never done to him before.

And because we all know his feelings it is easy to pain Pironi as the villain.

 

They were different souls, Pironi was only interested in wining the title, Gilles in winning races. Pironi was very ambitious, Gilles less so and more about the show and his toys!!  He knew where he stood with Carlos, Jody et al. And this was the first time he had in his eyes been shafted.

 

 

I dont think anyone would seriously try to claim he was never beaten by a teammate. Of course there were times when he was not quicker, as there has been for any driver.

 

There were also times when he was on another level above entirely, but that was by no means every time, but neither was it freakishly rare.

 

And Pironi was no slouch, as Roebuck said he went to Ferrari believing he was the quickest, and i'm sure some agreed, it can be disappointing in some ways to see him so dismissed in later years, he was a remarkable racer.

Sometimes he and Villeneuve were close, sometimes Pironi even had the upper hand... and sometimes, he wasn't even in the same league.

 

 

Its typical however that some people (and i do NOT mean you chunder ) simply dismiss ...

 

Mention teammates mechanical difficulties as mitigation, but not Villeneuve's... blah

Qualifying differences >1sec... doesnt matter, turbos blah... tyres blah.... lottery blah blah balh

Podiums 3-0, Points 25-9... fluke of chance... could have been different... blah blah

Wins 2-0, lapping his teammate ... freak results blah blah blah

 

Oh and hi ensign14 .. Brazil, was the off, South Africa was the engine blowing up.

Edited by jrv_t644e, 21 April 2017 - 16:41.

[Hank the Deuce]

It interests me that the Villeneuve/Pironi duel has gathered the more significant quantity of discussion... am I incorrect in considering it a silent admission that 1982 (and perhaps 1983) is the only WDC title that people expect with any certainty, to have played out differently, had the cards fallen differently?

[AJCee]

1968 might have been different.

[Tim Murray]

If Stirling hadn't had his Spa crash in 1960 I suspect that Brabham would still have been champion but it might have been pretty close. I'm also pretty confident Surtees would have been champion in 1966 had he not fallen out with Ferrari. But then (as Ensign mentioned earlier) what if Gurney hadn't left Brabham at the end of '65?

[ensign14]

It interests me that the Villeneuve/Pironi duel has gathered the more significant quantity of discussion... am I incorrect in considering it a silent admission that 1982 (and perhaps 1983) is the only WDC title that people expect with any certainty, to have played out differently, had the cards fallen differently?

 

1987 and 2016, surely?  Give each team-mate the same reliability and the slower one wouldn't have been champion.

 

Also, had the races in 1958 not been cut in half then Moss would probably have been champion, by borrowing Brooks' car at the Ring...
 

[Collombin]

If Stirling hadn't had his Spa crash in 1960 I suspect that Brabham would still have been champion but it might have been pretty close

I think they were equal on points in races in which they both competed, despite that race where Stirling suffered as a result of a stone (?) thrown up by Jack's car.

[chunder27]

For me winning a championship is about consistency aswell as speed.

 

Kenny Roberts in 2000 on a Suzuki, had a good bike at the start of the year, won some early races, then when the young Valentino Rossi started to get up to speed had to play second fiddle with a bike that did not perform on the tyres, a setup that enabled only one tyre and no development through the year.

 

Still won the title and after it was won, rode like a demon to win another race that year in dominant fashion. Rossi was the quicker but was learning early on and crashing.

 

Next year was one of the poorest title defences in bike racing history!  So he had a window of about 18 months with retiring champions, rider swaps and new youth, and capitalised on it brilliantly.

[garoidb]

It interests me that the Villeneuve/Pironi duel has gathered the more significant quantity of discussion... am I incorrect in considering it a silent admission that 1982 (and perhaps 1983) is the only WDC title that people expect with any certainty, to have played out differently, had the cards fallen differently?

 

Ferrari were WCC champions in both years. In 82 no driver started more than ten of the 16 races and in 83 they did not have a driver anywhere near the calibre of Piquet or Prost (or Villeneuve or Pironi). 

 

Edit: looking back, presumably Rene Arnoux was expected to be the team leader with Patrick Tambay in a secondary role, having been pulled back into F1 from Can-Am by the Zolder tragedy. Was Tambay under-rated or Arnoux over-rated? They should probably have gone with Michele a year earlier - that could have delivered a championship.

Edited by garoidb, 27 April 2017 - 19:50.

[jrv_t644e]

Arnoux was a strange one, sometimes blindingly quick and a match for Prost .. sometimes... not.

Tambay i do feel was underrated, in his early days he was superb, then McLaren set him back, beautiful drives at Theodore, then Ligier set him back, almost as if he couldnt really take the pressure of a top drive. Yet when he stepped in at Ferrari in the most awful circumstances he drove beautifully.

[Henri Greuter]

Ferrari were WCC champions in both years. In 82 no driver started more than ten of the 16 races and in 83 they did not have a driver anywhere near the calibre of Piquet or Prost (or Villeneuve or Pironi). 

 

Edit: looking back, presumably Rene Arnoux was expected to be the team leader with Patrick Tambay in a secondary role, having been pulled back into F1 from Can-Am by the Zolder tragedy. Was Tambay under-rated or Arnoux over-rated? They should probably have gone with Michele a year earlier - that could have delivered a championship.

 

 

Alboreto was chained with golden chains to Ken Tyrrell and the latter was not willing to let Michele go, it was about his biggest asset he had in '82 and '83.

 

Henri