125 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Almost every year, Williams had different drivers despite being very dominant. Villeneuve, Hill, Mansell, Prost and so on.

 

Why were there so many different drivers at Williams in the 90s?

Just money?

Was it just drivers like Prost didn't want to compete against others like Senna?

 

[Ickx]

Williams was not known for treating the drivers very well and as they had good cars why not show the good engineering. "Any driver could win in a Williams so why should we treat you as a star?"

[Myrvold]

Wasn't this partly down to Williams feeling that they made so good cars that they could get good drivers on a fairly low salary, instead of paying huge salaries to the very top drivers.

 

EDIT: Sounds like the answer above is more on point than mine.

Edited by Myrvold, 19 April 2017 - 15:33.

[Dan333SP]

A lot of the '93/'94/'95 upheaval was a combination of Mansell not wanting to partner with Prost, Prost not wanting to partner with Senna, contract buyouts/false promises (Alesi), and then Mansell's defection to CART and Senna's death. Basically the driver market was total chaos for a few years.

[f1paul]

I think some of it was down to timing and certain things like Senna's death and retirements for some of the drivers all happened within a few seasons.

[PayasYouRace]

As Dan said, there were a lot of special circumstances going on. At the start of that decade you had Patrese seeing out a long, 5 year stint with the team. Mansell quit because he didn't want to drive with Prost, and Prost wasn't going to be a long term prospect by any measure by that stage in his career.

Damon might have been an unexpected hiring but he lasted 4 years, no different to Rosberg (both of them), or Mansell in his first stint.

Obviously Senna was meant to be the there for a while but he tragically didn't make it, so Coulthard's promotion and Mansell's return were damage control.

You had Villeneuve for 3 years, and he began a sequence of Frank hiring IndyCar stars, where Zanardi was a flop but later Montoya stayed a while too.

Really, I outside those view drivers who left or were kicked out quickly, they weren't that different to other teams. Benetton had lots of changes too. McLaren did too before they settled on Hakkinen and Coulthard as a pairing.

[noikeee]

It was mostly a result of circumstances I think. Notice it was a time we had a massive turnover of drivers, the Senna/Prost/Mansell generation was clearly dominating but then they all suddenly retired almost all at once (in Senna's case sadly there was the accident) and it left a huge void in F1 with few top drivers to replace them... other than Schumacher who was never available at the right time. This is completely unlike what we have nowadays in the driver market with the likes of Hamilton and Vettel at their peak and with plenty years to come, so led to a lot less stability.

 

First they had Boutsen-Patrese which was a decent duo of #2-ish good-but-not-great drivers, but the car was coming good and Mansell available so they poached him.

 

Then they grabbed the title with Mansell but he was aging and didn't want to renew contract with Williams' low offer, so went to the USA instead, and they poached Prost who was sitting out.

 

Prost also won the title but clearly was also aging pretty badly and they wanted the seemingly quicker Senna instead. So they hired Senna, Prost got annoyed by this and retired for good.

 

Then sadly Senna died and they were left with a pair of unexperienced drivers in Hill-Coulthard. Neither were really rising to the occasion, so to replace Coulthard they hired Villeneuve who although also a rookie was looking hugely promising.

 

However meanwhile they realised they could do with an upgrade to Hill as well and hired Frentzen for next season who was also looking very promising... but then Hill won the title despite being froze out of a seat the next year.

 

This left them with Villeneuve-Frentzen and Villeneuve won the title too whilst Frentzen flopped massively.

[Dan333SP]

 

This left them with Villeneuve-Frentzen and Villeneuve won the title too whilst Frentzen flopped massively.

 

 

In the Williams, at least. His season at Jordan in '99 was excellent. Perez's great form at Force India after impressing 0 people at Mclaren is kinda reminiscent, except he's been doing it for a few years now where HHF only had one great season and then sank back into obscurity.

[ensign14]

They didn't, really.

 

1990-1: why wouldn't you choose Mansell over Boutsen/Patrese?

 

1991-2: no change

 

1992-3: Prost was available for a bargain, Mansell had a hissy fit, so they promoted the test driver.

 

1993-4: Senna was available for a bargain, Prost had a hissy fit, and post-Imola they promoted the test driver.  Bernie decided to undermine CART by persuading Mansell back for a farewell tour (as well as told Tony George to start the IRL).

 

1994-5: no change.

 

1995-6: Bernie decided to undermine CART by persuading Villeneuve for a nostalgia tour.

 

1996-7: Hill had already been surplus to requirements-ed, and Frentzen was a comingman.

 

1997-8: no change.

 

1998-9: Bernie decided to undermine CART by persuading Zanardi to give it a second go, Villeneuve's teacher mate had delusions of competence, Ralf had marketing value, Williams needed a Beemer so a German was a good punt for later.

 

 

Compare with, say, Larrousse-Lola, who had 9 drivers in half that time, who were selected on the basis that they either spoke French or were called Suzuki.

[chunder27]

You are wrong about 94.

 

Prost had a deal in place for 94, and a part of his contract said Senna was not to be his team-mate under any circumstances.

 

Senna offered to drive for nothing, Prost knew he would try this hence the contract. And he knew Frank would be tempted with Senna after 83 test and what happened since.  And you can obviously understand why he chose not to partner Senna again. Hence the contract.

 

Frank said he was going to sign Senna and Alain was paid his full salary for not driving in 94, he did not want to retire at all.

 

All in the Senna DVD if you watch it

[Maustinsj]

Wasn't it Renault who wanted Senna in the 94 Williams? Or was that Frank's excuse?

[Kalmake]

Had things gone the way they were supposed to, it would have been Senna-Häkkinen from 1994 until Senna's retirement.

[Barty]

You are wrong about 94.

 

Prost had a deal in place for 94, and a part of his contract said Senna was not to be his team-mate under any circumstances.

 

Senna offered to drive for nothing, Prost knew he would try this hence the contract. And he knew Frank would be tempted with Senna after 83 test and what happened since.  And you can obviously understand why he chose not to partner Senna again. Hence the contract.

 

Frank said he was going to sign Senna and Alain was paid his full salary for not driving in 94, he did not want to retire at all.

 

All in the Senna DVD if you watch it

 

If that's true, then why didn't they bring Prost back after Imola instead of Coulthard?

[PayasYouRace]

I know that in the 93/94 off season Ron Dennis was trying to convince Prost to drive for McLaren, but Prost wasn't interested and Brundle got the drive. I'm not sure if by then Alain had decided to retire or not. But he did get involved in McLaren and tested their new cars in 95 and 96.

[Dan333SP]

If that's true, then why didn't they bring Prost back after Imola instead of Coulthard?

 

Not sure whether there were any discussions about that between Prost and the team, but I'd have to imagine any lingering desire to race in F1 vanished with Senna's death. Yea, they were great rivals and all that, but Prost was deeply affected by his passing.

[Yamamoto]

Wasn't it Renault who wanted Senna in the 94 Williams? Or was that Frank's excuse?

 

I think Renault were the ones who wanted Prost the most for 1993, so I'm not sure about that. I think I read in a biography of Senna that Frank said the no-Senna clause was only applicable for 1993, but I could be wrong about that.

[Maustinsj]

I think Renault were the ones who wanted Prost the most for 1993, so I'm not sure about that. I think I read in a biography of Senna that Frank said the no-Senna clause was only applicable for 1993, but I could be wrong about that.

 

I think you're right.

 

One of the extra Prost interviews in the Senna DVD was Prost explaining that FW had come to him saying that Renault had approached him about wanting Senna joining for 94 and that this was what prompted him to retire.

[Paco]

Simple. Arrogance 1st and foremost and second Patrick Head had a knack for always thinking he knew what's best for the car and never trusting or allowing his drivers freedom. It was and is still very much more about the engineers then the drivers in that team. Today's formula is more the Ferrari Schumi model, a combination of both and more an investment in a driver then an expense as the Williams of old says it.

[SPBHM]

Wasn't it Renault who wanted Senna in the 94 Williams? Or was that Frank's excuse?

 

I've heard many times that Renault wanted Senna for 94

 

also it makes sense because 94/95 is around the time when Renault started selling cars in Brazil.

[PayasYouRace]

I think we've established that it was special circumstances, and not any particular arrogance.

[NewMrMe]

They had 11 drivers, but it isn't really any different to their main rivals.

 

McLaren 9 drivers - Senna, Berger, Andretti, Hakkinen, Brundle, Blundell, Mansell, Magnussen, Coulthard.

Ferrari 10 drivers - Prost, Mansell, Alesi, Morbidelli, Capelli, Larini, Berger, Schumacher, Irvine, Salo

Benetton 13 drivers - Nannini, Piquet, Moreno, Schumacher, Brundle, Patrese, Lehto, Verstappen, Herbert, Alesi, Berger, Wurz, Fisichella

 

Edit - Forgot Mansell drove 2 races for McLaren.

Edited by NewMrMe, 19 April 2017 - 20:45.

[John B]

Go back to 1987, and the team has the great oddity of 4 straight drivers winning titles in a decade, but not returning to defend the crown. The team didn't carry the #1 on the car during this time until JV in 1998.

[John B]

It was an abrupt transition for F1 in the mid-90s when Ptost and Senna were gone at roughly the same time, plus Mansell in CART and Piquet earlier, that's 11 titles and many wins. Most races in 94 didn't have an active WDC on the grid.

[RacingGreen]

They had 11 drivers, but it isn't really any different to their main rivals.

 

McLaren 9 drivers - Senna, Berger, Andretti, Hakkinen, Brundle, Blundell, Mansell, Magnussen, Coulthard.

Ferrari 10 drivers - Prost, Mansell, Alesi, Morbidelli, Capelli, Larini, Berger, Schumacher, Irvine, Salo

Benetton 13 drivers - Nannini, Piquet, Moreno, Schumacher, Brundle, Patrese, Lehto, Verstappen, Herbert, Alesi, Berger, Wurz, Fisichella

 

Edit - Forgot Mansell drove 2 races for McLaren.

 

While statistically on number of drivers alone they may be no different the team is worse because they earned themselves a reputation for sacking World Champions and not allowing them the opportunity to defend their title.

And it's not "special circumstances" - one world champion is unfortunate circumstances, two a bit careless but to get rid of three - well that's just bad management.

Still they are a middle of the field team, no world champions just a rookie pay driver and a ex-retired veteran so I guess karma comes around eventually.

[D28]

Go back to 1987, and the team has the great oddity of 4 straight drivers winning titles in a decade, but not returning to defend the crown. The team didn't carry the #1 on the car during this time until JV in 1998.

And between 1986-97 they won 7 Constructors Championships. could be that Frank and Patrick simply put more emphasis on the team prize, rather than the driver's title. Understandable it did they as they were the ultimate F1 team competitors.

Edited by D28, 20 April 2017 - 03:15.

[chunder27]

Would you drive for a team that had ignored your contract that had been agreed with you, in full knowledge of the reasons why?   This was mid-93 when Alain was looking a likely world champion and he finds out that instead of making it 5 his boss is saying he wants to sign the guy that has caused him intense problems and also drove him off the track at over 100 mph coz he got in a snot with (what he thought) the French about pole position placing at Suzuka. I would expect Frank did broatch the subject with Alain, but hopefully Alain told him where to stick it, he could not have won the title by then, did not develop the car (at the time it was a turd) and was quite happy picking up a massive pay cheque doing nothing thanks!! Plus had got closer to Ayrton and would probably have felt wrong driving his car.

 

This is the reason for this thread after all, Frank and Patrick were not very good at dealing with drivers, even ones of Prosts level.

 

Before that they let Mansell and Piquet go at it, they did not control Jones and Reutemann very well. They have a long history of mis-managing their drivers. Possibly the worst in F1, considering their success and ability to win.

[NewMrMe]

A weird Williams statistic is that no driver has won another championship after winning it for Williams or won more than 4 GPs afterwards.

 

Alan Jones - 1980 Champion. Won 2 races in 1981 and retired at the end of the season. Had a failed attempted F1 comeback in 1985 and 1986.

Keke Rosberg - 1982 Champion. Sporadic wins for the next few seasons. 1 in 1983, 1 in 1984 and 2 in 1985. Retired after the 1986 season.

Nelson Piquet - 1987 Champion. Left to join Lotus for 1988. After 2 winless seasons joined Benetton, winning twice in 1990 and once in 1991. Left F1 at the end of that season.

Nigel Mansell - 1992 Champion. Left to go to Indycar. Came back for 4 races in 1994 winning 1 of them. Raced twice in 1995 then retired.

Alain Prost - 1993 Champion. Retired from F1 at the end of that season.

Damon Hill - 1996 Champion. Dropped by the team despite winning the championship. Won 1 race in 1998 and retired at the end of 1999.

Jacques Villeneuve - 1997 Champion. Raced in F1 until 2006 but never won again.

[Ibsey]

If that's true, then why didn't they bring Prost back after Imola instead of Coulthard?

 

 

Prost said immediately after Imola 1994 he wouldn't race in F1 anymore out of respect for Senna. Patrese & Frentzen also both turned down that FW16 drive after Imola. 

[PayasYouRace]

While statistically on number of drivers alone they may be no different the team is worse because they earned themselves a reputation for sacking World Champions and not allowing them the opportunity to defend their title.
And it's not "special circumstances" - one world champion is unfortunate circumstances, two a bit careless but to get rid of three - well that's just bad management.
Still they are a middle of the field team, no world champions just a rookie pay driver and a ex-retired veteran so I guess karma comes around eventually.

Hugely unfair view of the team. Only Hill was sacked, and that was before he actually won the title. Piquet stayed with Honda so went to Lotus. Mansell and Prost left because they weren't happy with their intended team mates for the following year, Prost and Senna respectively.

If that earned them any karma said karma would be fulfilled by about ten years ago.

[V8 Fireworks]

Simple. Arrogance 1st and foremost and second Patrick Head had a knack for always thinking he knew what's best for the car and never trusting or allowing his drivers freedom. It was and is still very much more about the engineers then the drivers in that team.

 

Why shouldn't it be so?  Driver is just a steering wheel to seat interface.  So many racing drivers available.  You plug them in and they guide it around the track.  While the likes of Mansell and Prost were skilled and analytical, on average racing drivers are not considered intellectual heavyweights...

 

The webbed feet frantically paddling below the waterline, while having tea breaks, is what it is all about...

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 April 2017 - 08:34.

[PlatenGlass]

Was it just that Mansell wasn't happy with his potential team-mate (Prost)? Throughout 1992 he gave interviews suggesting that he was basically being screwed over but without saying in what way. He seemed genuinely upset about some unfairness.

He also applauded Senna when he complained about Prost keeping him out of the team.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 20 April 2017 - 08:38.

[V8 Fireworks]

 He seemed genuinely upset about some unfairness.
 

 

Mansell, whinging?  You don't say...  Can't imagine such a thing! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sopa]

A lot has been covered here already.

 

Some of the silly seasons like 1992 or 1993 were genuinely fascinating, which surrounded Williams.

 

In short. The drivers, who were considered to be the "big three" at the time - Mansell, Prost, Senna - obviously all wanted to drive that dominant thing. But they couldn't stand each other as team-mates! So they took turns in driving that car. 

 

Also fascinating, how Prost came into play. He signed the Williams deal basically well in advance. Pretty shortly after getting sacked by Ferrari. He had a 2-year-deal (1993-94) with a clause of no Senna. But interesting that this clause worked only for 1 year, and not both years. Perhaps during 1993 Williams and Renault recognized that Prost wasn't at his prime any more and wouldn't listen to his demands any more, while they listened before 1993! Interesting.

 

Also fast forward a few years, when this "trio" was gone. I wonder if M. Schumacher was ever on the radar for Williams. I mean his contract ended after 1995, and both Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes were hunting his services. But heard not much about Williams. However, during 1995 nevertheless Williams recognized they have a weakness in their driver line-up, and turned their eyes to who were at the time considered as the next big things - Villeneuve and Frentzen.

 

Also 1998 is interesting. Williams lost their competitiveness and both Villeneuve and Frentzen were gone. Obviously for HHF it was no big loss as he was never on good terms with the team and the Jordan team at the time didn't seem like a significantly worse option at all. With Villeneuve I wonder - did he leave largely because Williams lost ground and he believed they would at least for a while not become a top team again? Or he would have left Williams even if they were title contenders in 1998, because he just wanted to become a legend "in his own team"? He must have seen, how Schumacher was treated in Ferrari, and was probably dreaming of the same, as Williams was never known for caring about drivers to that level.

[PlayboyRacer]

Simple - circumstances and upheaval at various stages. People will tell you that Williams never cared for drivers, which to an extent is true - you had to be mentally very tough to thrive in that environment.

However I do seem to recall them having Prost on a multi year deal (retired), wanting Mansell to stay (went to CART) and wanting Villeneuve to stay (started BAR).

Throw in Ayrtons death... and the amount of changes in a short period are evident and not solely of their making.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 20 April 2017 - 10:44.

[PlayboyRacer]

With Villeneuve I wonder - did he leave largely because Williams lost ground and he believed they would at least for a while not become a top team again? Or he would have left Williams even if they were title contenders in 1998, because he just wanted to become a legend "in his own team"? He must have seen, how Schumacher was treated in Ferrari, and was probably dreaming of the same, as Williams was never known for caring about drivers to that level.

Regardless of BAR, thinking back to that time, I think Jacques was leaving anyhow. Williams lost Newey and Renault works support and JV knew they were in the wilderness for a while.

According to recent comments from him (and rumours at the time), it was start BAR (a long term project where he had a stake) or take up an approach from McLaren, driven by Newey who rated him very highly.

Also just on BAR - if JV went there thinking he'd 'do a Schumacher', then sadly he was delusional. The task he took on at BAR was 50 times more difficult, given Ferrari were a strong, established team (if a bit lost) when Michael switched. Jacques started a team from scratch.

Apples and oranges. And career destroying ultimately.

[sopa]

It's hard to know, what exactly Villeneuve was thinking during 1998... 

 

However, in a way he seems/seemed the kind of driver like Nico Rosberg. Achieving one WDC was enough for him, so he could turn his eyes to 'other challenges' to put it this way.

[PlayboyRacer]

You could be right Sopa. After all at the age of 26 he'd already reached huge levels of success in open wheel racing. So quite possibly he simply dared to dream, without too much thought to possible pitfalls.

[chunder27]

The Senna clause did NOT work for only one year, it was always there.

 

Frank and Renault simply made it clear they were going to sign Senna regardless of Prost's wishes. So he took a year out on full pay, rather then deal with 89 all over again and the favouritism and bitching, can you blame him?  If he negotiated it that cleverly fair play to him.

 

This are the early signs that contracts are not always worth the paper they are printed on are they Eddie!!

 

Why on earth would Prost sign a contract that stipiulated Senna could ever be allowed to be his team-mate after 90? He certainly would never say 93 no way, 94 fair enough!! It is simply unthinkable in my mind. If Frank had included that section in a contract Alain would simply not have signed it or asked for it to be removed.

 

This is why Mansell and Senna ganged up on Alain to the media in 92 as they both knew they had been written out of driving there for the next 2 years.

 

Did Jacques not have a financial involvement with BAR through Pollock?  I would think that might have some weight with his move, all he did really was miss the up and down BMW years, and by the time he left Honda were just starting tog et good and he was past his sell by date.

Edited by chunder27, 20 April 2017 - 11:41.

[MattK9]

Who would want to race for that williams team after the way they treated first Mansell, then Prost and then Hill.

If you can do that to the World Champion drivers in your team then they could do that to any driver.

 

More interesting to me is why the williams suddenly became uncompetitive in 98.

[chunder27]

Grooved tyres, no factory engine and a lack of ability to adapt to the tyres compared to others, plus they were on Goodyears when Bridgey were the coming tyre.

[V8 Fireworks]

Also just on BAR - if JV went there thinking he'd 'do a Schumacher', then sadly he was delusional. The task he took on at BAR was 50 times more difficult, given Ferrari were a strong, established team (if a bit lost) when Michael switched. Jacques started a team from scratch.
 

 

Having gone on to win 4 WCC & 4 WDC titles, Jacques efforts in building BAR are hardly a failure! 

[V8 Fireworks]

Who would want to race for that williams team after the way they treated first Mansell, then Prost and then Hill.

If you can do that to the World Champion drivers in your team then they could do that to any driver.

 

More interesting to me is why the williams suddenly became uncompetitive in 98.

 

1. 

 

2. Supertech.

[lustigson]

Having gone on to win 4 WCC & 4 WDC titles, Jacques efforts in building BAR are hardly a failure! 

 

If you look at it that way, it certainly was a long-term effort. 

[PlayboyRacer]

The main reason Williams fell off a cliff were simply they lost Newey... and totally cocked up their design for the 1998 regulations.

Throw in the withdrawal of Renault... its no wonder they fell so far, so quickly.

[taran]

Hugely unfair view of the team. Only Hill was sacked, and that was before he actually won the title. Piquet stayed with Honda so went to Lotus. Mansell and Prost left because they weren't happy with their intended team mates for the following year, Prost and Senna respectively.

If that earned them any karma said karma would be fulfilled by about ten years ago.

 

Bit of a whitewashing here....I don't believe in handing out karma but Williams has been especially sleazy when it comes to drivers from the get-go. The way they treated Clay was disgraceful. Then there was the entire Reutemann thing.

Followed by the Piquet fiasco. Then mistreating Boutsen who returned to an empty garage from winning the Hungary GP. Mansell's departure followed by Prost's and the subsequent dealing with Zanardi all point to Frank being an a$$hole.

 

Sorry but that's the way I see and call it. If you don't want to keep your driver for next year you don't keep him dangling until all decent seats are taken. And you don't sign contracts you don't intend to keep.

 

Sir Frank ain't Saint Frank despite the nostalgic aura surrounding his team these days.

[HistoryFan]

 

 

 

Compare with, say, Larrousse-Lola, who had 9 drivers in half that time, who were selected on the basis that they either spoke French or were called Suzuki.

 

But Larrousse was not a top team, not a champion team...

 

[HistoryFan]

A weird Williams statistic is that no driver has won another championship after winning it for Williams or won more than 4 GPs afterwards.

 

Alan Jones - 1980 Champion. Won 2 races in 1981 and retired at the end of the season. Had a failed attempted F1 comeback in 1985 and 1986.

Keke Rosberg - 1982 Champion. Sporadic wins for the next few seasons. 1 in 1983, 1 in 1984 and 2 in 1985. Retired after the 1986 season.

Nelson Piquet - 1987 Champion. Left to join Lotus for 1988. After 2 winless seasons joined Benetton, winning twice in 1990 and once in 1991. Left F1 at the end of that season.

Nigel Mansell - 1992 Champion. Left to go to Indycar. Came back for 4 races in 1994 winning 1 of them. Raced twice in 1995 then retired.

Alain Prost - 1993 Champion. Retired from F1 at the end of that season.

Damon Hill - 1996 Champion. Dropped by the team despite winning the championship. Won 1 race in 1998 and retired at the end of 1999.

Jacques Villeneuve - 1997 Champion. Raced in F1 until 2006 but never won again.

 

Wow, didn't realize that...

 

[Ibsey]

Interesting article on the topic;

 

http://atlasf1.autos...v25/horton.html

 

[Kalmake]

It's hard to know, what exactly Villeneuve was thinking during 1998... 

 

However, in a way he seems/seemed the kind of driver like Nico Rosberg. Achieving one WDC was enough for him, so he could turn his eyes to 'other challenges' to put it this way.

His thinking was "my manager is running that team and I'll get paid more."

 

That comparison isn't apt. Rosberg gave up a lot of money by retiring early and is not interested in racing ever again. Villeneuve continued in hopeless midfield teams for nearly ten years until no one would have him.

[Dan333SP]

Go back to 1987, and the team has the great oddity of 4 straight drivers winning titles in a decade, but not returning to defend the crown. The team didn't carry the #1 on the car during this time until JV in 1998.

 

Ironically, the first time they bring back a defending champion is also the beginning of their long spell without another title.