25 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

In another thread I told that ever since '79 I hate that track and even more so after '99 ans to such an extend that I'll never wanna see any event over there, even if all costs are covered.

 

Why?

 

Because it almost killed one of my favorite drivers and did kill another one.

A facility devoted to NASCAR and benefitting from the knowledge that Indycars/CART runs on high speed ovals too so why not let them run over there as well, even if the track was more prepped to NASCAR specs than Indycar.

 

The only `good` thing I can say about it is that "the track" `gave a sign` of what was to come even we only realized it with hindsight.

The sign being: "Once your number is up....."

 

'97: #4 's up

Freshly crowned champion Alex Zanardi had two big crashes in practice with #4 and was eventually unable to start the race. Team Ganassi flew in Indy 500 Champ Arie Luyendyk to race the #4, despite littel to no practice. Sarting from the back, Arie had wat was one of his two worst accidents ever in his career, pretty much beyond his control and so "the track" claimed a third Car #4 and 2 injerud drivers.

 

'99: #99 's up

Greg Moore drives his last race for the team that brought him in CART. He has however a mighty bad crash and injures his thumb. Not wantingt to let his team and fans down for the farewell race he asks and receives permission to start the race after proving that the injury was not enough of a handicap to keep him out of the cockpit.

Pretty much beyond his own control, Greg has a nighmarish accident at the infield, paved with grass, the preferred infield surface for NASCAR that thrives on big hi-banked ovals like Fontana. The accident is eery similar to that of Richie Hearn a few laps earlier but Greg appears to have used up all his luck with `the track` earlier that weekend and doesn't survive.

 

CART at Fontana between '97-'99:  If "your number was up" and you had a crash in practice: think again about continuing to and into the race because there is a good chance you were not gonna leave the track on your own.

 

Coincidence of course.

But for me a coincidence why I hated that track ever since and didn't watch live race reports from it anymore.

 

 

Henri

[Muppetmad]

I can understand why one would react strongly to particular circuits as a result of previous events. I for one could never watch a race on Las Vegas Motor Speedway these days.

[Prost1997T]

I can understand why one would react strongly to particular circuits as a result of previous events. I for one could never watch a race on Las Vegas Motor Speedway these days.

 

Vegas had the fence poles on the inside, Fontana is rather different from what it was in 1999 (at least the infield, anyway).

[B Squared]

Greg's thumb was injured from a scooter accident in the paddock.

[FLB]

Charlotte Motor Speedway for me. Ever since Gary Batson in 1992 (don't look it up), that place has given me the creeps.

[Henri Greuter]

I can understand why one would react strongly to particular circuits as a result of previous events. I for one could never watch a race on Las Vegas Motor Speedway these days.

 

Same here.

The sheer madness of allowing even more cars to race at a 1.5 mile oval then they race normally at Indy (33, only twice since '79 they races 35 at IMS)....

34 cars in the race, while in practice there had never been a moment with more than 16 cars at the track at the same time....

 

Maybe there was indeed a (censored description of a person who should be very ashamed about himself) who felt that it was acceptable given the fact that it was to be the last ever race for this generation of IRL cars so in case of a massive wreck there was not so much of a problem with written off chassis lost for next season anymore because everyone had to replace his cars anyway.

 

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Greg's thumb was injured from a scooter accident in the paddock.

 

Yup, you're right, I stand corrected on that one.

Doesn't change that much about the act of "the track" ...

 

 

henri

[Risil]

That Las Vegas race shouldn't have started, although I'm sceptical whether it would've made a difference with 34 or 30 or 25 entrants.

[LucaP]

Lausitzring ((

[Prost1997T]

Same here.

The sheer madness of allowing even more cars to race at a 1.5 mile oval then they race normally at Indy (33, only twice since '79 they races 35 at IMS)....

34 cars in the race, while in practice there had never been a moment with more than 16 cars at the track at the same time....

Henri

 

The event was Randy Bernard's idea though. He even said he'd resign if it didn't get a good enough TV rating. So I think blaming just Barnhart is off-base. I should also point out there were 30 cars at TMS earlier in the year with no substantial incidents (albeit the cars spread out much more quickly than at Vegas: https://youtu.be/S2M_gW6NgcM?t=4475).

 

Personally I'm not one to linger on events or remain bitter if I can help it, that goes for most things in life and not just racing.

Edited by Prost1997T, 05 May 2017 - 19:32.

[Henri Greuter]

 

 

Personally I'm not one to linger on events or remain bitter if I can help it, that goes for most things in life and not just racing.

 

 

I understand what you mean 

 

Sometimes however I get the feeling that in the thirst for excitement lessons of the past are conveniently forgotten, ignored or wiped away with the arguement that cars are so much more safe nowadays as a justification.

 

Henri

[HeadFirst]

The event was Randy Bernard's idea though. He even said he'd resign if it didn't get a good enough TV rating. So I think blaming just Barnhart is off-base. I should also point out there were 30 cars at TMS earlier in the year with no substantial incidents (albeit the cars spread out much more quickly than at Vegas: https://youtu.be/S2M_gW6NgcM?t=4475).

 

Personally I'm not one to linger on events or remain bitter if I can help it, that goes for most things in life and not just racing.

 

Blaming one factor alone is of course off-base, but certainly the whole festival aspect of the weekend (including the "Promotion") created by Barnhardt was a major factor.

[ArrowsLivery]

Disaster can strike at any moment, unfortunately. It comes with the territory of watching motorsport. Who would've expected that rainy day in Suzuka to end the way it did, or even the Malaysian MGP a few years back? It's just the risk that these guys have been facing ever since their parents agreed to let them loose on the track.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Straying off topic I know, but why else did, what many perceived as the untouchable leader of Indycar, resign?

 

Stands out like the proverbial dogs whatsits......

[PayasYouRace]

 

Coincidence of course.

 

 

And that's the long and short of it.

 

Fontana was built as a copy of Michigan Speedway, which in all it's years of hosting Indycar type events never had any fatalities on track, despite some huge crashes.

 

I'd rather watch Indycar on a 2 mile D-shape oval with moderate banking to a 1.5 mile high banked cookie-cutter like Las Vegas, Texas, etc.

[LeClerc]

Lausitzring ((

 

Building that thing was spectacularly stupid. I'm still frothing at the mouth when I think about the amount of subsidies that got sunk there 

[Henri Greuter]

And that's the long and short of it.

 

Fontana was built as a copy of Michigan Speedway, which in all it's years of hosting Indycar type events never had any fatalities on track, despite some huge crashes.

 

I'd rather watch Indycar on a 2 mile D-shape oval with moderate banking to a 1.5 mile high banked cookie-cutter like Las Vegas, Texas, etc.

 

 

I've been at Michigan in the Summer of '96 for the Marlboro 500, (NOT for that US 500 on Memorial Day) and I got to say that it was one of the most thrilling experiences in my life ever at a track, any track.

But if I want to do it another time? I have to give that a good thought.

Maybe there have been no Indycar drivers killed at Michigan but in '98 there were three fatailties in the crowd.....

That race was won by, ironically (given what happened a  year later on a near similar track) Greg Moore....

 

Henri

[Andrew Hope]

This is a topic as interesting as it is sad, because I've wondered about this kind of thing myself and how emotional connections can overpower actually facts that you know - I know more horrible accidents have happened at Indianapolis, Sarthe, and the Nordschleife but that doesn't bug me at all and I adore all three of those tracks. Meanwhile I'm playing Forza and every time I run through the esses at Watkins Glen I think of what happened to Francois Cevert.

 

Charlotte Motor Speedway for me. Ever since Gary Batson in 1992 (don't look it up), that place has given me the creeps.

 

I've seen that a few times, an absolute nightmare. Cruel is the first word that comes to mind, a crash in the same vein as Williamson @ Zandvoort - bad, bad, bad luck and no one had the time to do anything about it while it happened. Although Charlotte doesn't do this to me, the Hockenheim drag strip does because of what happened to Tony Boden in 1986. 

 

I know it's tantalizing to mention this type of thing and punctuate it with "don't look it up" throughout, but if you don't already know, you don't need to see what happened here. There is video of it and it is tremendously upsetting. It's enough to know that sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes in those accidents the only exit out of the car is blocked, and sometimes the car catches fire, and sometimes the crash wasn't bad enough to kill you through the impact. And sometimes you should remind yourself that all the time, you need to be wearing your fire suit.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 07 May 2017 - 01:53.

[Jim Thurman]

Henri, while I can perfectly understand bad memories being associated with a particular place, there are a few points. First, I'm on record stating that I don't believe Indy type cars should ever race on high banked ovals. Unfortunately, the lower banked ovals either had their bankings raised or disappeared.

 

California Speedway was built by Mr. Penske, not NASCAR, and specifcally built with banking slightly lower than Michigan Intl. Speedway, purposefully to have Indycars on it (California Speedway is 14 degrees, Michigan 18 degrees).

 

Grass too, is not a NASCAR thing. Sadly, it's looked at as "pretty." And, again, it wasn't the grass, but the access road that caused the issue. One could be angry about that, but that situation had long existed, and still does to a degree at anyplace that hasn't paved the entire run-off area. It has tripped up NASCAR racers too. Darrell Waltrip took a wild, flipping ride after his car caught the access road at Daytona. Probably a reason why Waltrip has said he wished they'd get rid of grass around any oval. I wish they (and other tracks) would have changed this earlier, but they did not.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 07 May 2017 - 02:36.

[Jim Thurman]

Greg's thumb was injured from a scooter accident in the paddock.

 

Brian, Henri probably got that misinformation from me. I could not recall what Greg injured in the scooter accident. The internet being such a wonderful, helpful tool, I saw hand, finger, pinky and wrist listed as his injury.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 07 May 2017 - 02:43.

[Jim Thurman]

 

 

I know it's tantalizing to mention this type of thing and punctuate it with "don't look it up" throughout, but if you don't already know, you don't need to see what happened here. There is video of it and it is tremendously upsetting. It's enough to know that sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes in those accidents the only exit out of the car is blocked, and sometimes the car catches fire, and sometimes the crash wasn't bad enough to kill you through the impact. And sometimes you should remind yourself that all the time, you need to be wearing your fire suit.

 

This is how rumors get started. Batson was wearing a firesuit, but only a single layer one (the minimum required). Another comment, ah, good ol' YouTube with seemingly every single fatal accident on display with the accompaniment of wonderful comments.

 

EDIT: Always good to see you here Andrew, don't be a stranger.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 07 May 2017 - 03:10.

[Andrew Hope]

This is how rumors get started. Batson was wearing a firesuit, but only a single layer one (the minimum required). Another comment, ah, good ol' YouTube with seemingly every single fatal accident on display with the accompaniment of wonderful comments.

 

EDIT: Always good to see you here Andrew, don't be a stranger.

 

I was talking about Tony Boden there, in the spirit of the thread of connecting tracks (or in this case, certain sections of them) with particular memories. Poorly worded, like the last 7500 times.

 

I mention Boden's accident because it is in my head the most perfect example of the phenomena of "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong" (or why planning for the absolute billion-to-one worst case scenario can save your ass). But more to the point, I mention it because of how Henri in the OP talked, and because it's so plainly horrible that it sticks with you. When I think about a race at the Hockenheimring I have to avoid this mentally the way I would physically avoid a wasp nest in the trees in front of my house.

 

He was at a track still new to drag racing, and according to Motorsport Memorial some safety-related issues were ignored. Hockenheim's unfamiliarity with drag racing at the time may or may not have hurt, but it certainly didn't help. Hockenheim's drag strip is now a proper drag strip with acres of runoff, but in 1986 they just threw dragsters down the current start/finish straight, meaning any overshoot is met with the kerbing of the road course and then curved armco (the end of the drag strip at the time being the current final corner of the F1 lap). It might've been a cool day, but in fact it was sweltering hot and this led Boden to forego wearing his Nomex for the run. I have read it from people in the drag racing community that not only did he skip wearing his suit, but his fireproof gloves and socks, and that he did not even wear his helmet during the run. Having seen the video of the incident, I can with an awful sadness confirm this was the case.

 

He might've gotten away with the decision to skip his safety gear 999 times out of a thousand, but this was the 1. The parachute was unable to function and help prevent the accident. The fire truck was placed at the staging area of the strip, rather than at the end of the track where his car came to rest. The track being a road course first, a bump just off course flipped the funny car and (for those who are not into drag racing, i.e. 98% of this forum) there is only one way out of a funny car - the roof hatch.

 

 

So what do you do when there's a fire, and the car is upside down, and the fire truck was forty feet from you ten seconds ago but now it's a half mile away? And you may have gotten away with all of that anyway, except that day you left your firesuit in the trailer and just jumped in with a T-shirt on because you're just giving the car a quick shakedown - what's the worst that can happen? The worst is you will pay the heaviest price racing can levy, and you will also make a few thousand randoms who only know your name through an obsession of history eventually give in to curiosity and wonder what exactly happened to you and why you're not here anymore, and to feel their blood sizzle and boil with anger at how utterly useless the people who could have saved you were.

 

This is what happens when you wear your fire gear:

 

 

Hockenheim 1986 is what happens when you don't.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 07 May 2017 - 07:52.

[Henri Greuter]

Seems that my feelings about Fontana have to be altered a little bit due to obtained knowledge.....

 

Thanks to everyone for all input in this thread.

 

It made me realize howevr that, in the past, we have seen earlier examples of drivers loosing their lives due to circumstances they really had not to accept or should have got into, maybe on occasion should have known better. But sometimes it was also pure bad luck.

 

Jack McGrath, AAA (Indycar) driver in 1955. His team had sold his car to a new owner for after the last race of the season. In the last race of the season he drove his car for the last time he discovered a part being suspect but since it would be his car no longer after the race he let it on and started the race, only to be killed  in it when the component failed....

 

I need a refresher on this but out of the top of my head, something similar did happen with Ted Horn in 1948. (Horn was another AAA (indycar) driver, multiple national champion, never won Indy but in his last 9 starts he finished either 2nd, 3rd or 4th, and made 1799 out otf a maximum of 1800 race laps. I my memory serves me right, he noticed a not 100% spindle on his car in the last race of the season. He did not want to spend the money on a new spindle for only one race that year, started the race and finished his life during it when the spindle broke....

 

Rob Slotemaker may not be a well known name over here with the younger guard. But have you ever seen the Steve McQueen movie Le Mans?  Much of the stunt work with skidding cars was done by Slotemaker. In the Netherlands he was famous for his Anti-skid-school at the track of Zandvoort. Jan Lammers worked over there as a little boy and learned his skills over there, Slotemaker was his mentor and one of the persons who supported Jan to enter F1 with Shadow in 1979.

Slotemaker raced in the Dutch national championships, primarily touring cars. He had announced his retirement after the last race of the Dutch 1979 Season, which was his 25th season of racing cars. On the next to last race of 1979 the Zandvoort track also organized an event for a Swedish One-make championship, everyone driving Chevrolet Camaro's. Rob Slotemaker raced a Camaro in the Dutch championship and was permitted to compete with the Swedish drivers but was not eligible for points. Wanting to race as many races in his last year as he could, Slotemaker started the event but crashed to his dead in an event in which he had nothing to prove to anyone but anly wanted to have some fun by competing against drivers in similar material....

 

Greg Moore's thumb might be added to that list.

 

Another classic described by Dick Sommers in his book "Eddie Called me Boss"

Indycar driver Eddie Sachs accused 1963 Indy race winner Parnelli Jones for leaking oil in the final stages of the race, heavy words followed and Eddie called Parnelli a liar after which a fight broke out.

USAC investigated the matter and sanctioned Sachs mildly. in his book Sommers (the car owner Sachs drove for in 1963 and 1964) wrote that had USAC come down on Sachs like a ton of bricks and banned Sachs for a year because of that incident then Sachs had likely still been alive after May 30 1964, instead of being killed in the 2nd lap crash at Indy that year.....

 

I assume there are a number of cases remeniscent like these when a driver could have still been alive had he not ....

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 07 May 2017 - 09:16.

[Jim Thurman]

I was talking about Tony Boden there, in the spirit of the thread of connecting tracks (or in this case, certain sections of them) with particular memories. Poorly worded, like the last 7500 times.

 

Andrew, it wasn't your wording, it was more me than you. Some of the description matched what occurred with the Batson accident as well. I wasn't familiar with the Boden accident.

[Jim Thurman]

Seems that my feelings about Fontana have to be altered a little bit due to obtained knowledge.....

 

Thanks to everyone for all input in this thread.

 

It made me realize howevr that, in the past, we have seen earlier examples of drivers loosing their lives due to circumstances they really had not to accept or should have got into, maybe on occasion should have known better. But sometimes it was also pure bad luck.

 

I assume there are a number of cases remeniscent like these when a driver could have still been alive had he not ....

 

 

Henri, seemingly every fatal accident has some tall tale to go with it. Many of these we are unable to prove or disprove, but others are easily disproven. There's something about the non-racing press, fans and motorsport writers that create and keep these rumors and tales in circulation. Did Greg Moore's thumb injury play a part in his losing control? It has been speculated, but I truly don't know and neither do most of the folks writing about it. I was reluctant to even bring that up, but it was reported at the time. The story about McGrath is one I've read repeatedly, although some of the details are off a bit and one always wonders how much it is after the fact. In many cases, these get added to years after the fact.

 

A lot of these sorts of stories are true folklore. I liken them to ghost stories. There are several phrases that get repeated so often that they become cliches:

 

"It was going to be his final race, as he was retiring after", "It was his first race", "death curve", "meaningless race", "just got his big break as he just signed to drive...", "hoodoo wagon." Cars being cut-up, burned or buried: "so they can't hurt anyone else." And a ridiculous number of accidents believed to have involved decapitation, dismemberment or other injuries far more severe than what actually occurred. Just the sheer number of times these get mentioned should raise red flags as to their veracity. Most don't hold up to any scrutiny.

[MargaretM37]

Imola for me