114 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Prince Bira, Alfonso de Portago - who were the best noble racing drivers?

[Tim Murray]

This earlier thread may be of interest:

Titled drivers

[JoBo]

This earlier thread may be of interest:

Titled drivers

 

Tim,

many drivers from this older thread were ttled many years after they retired from racing - like Stirling Moss, Derek Bell etc.

 

It would be best to focuss more to those drivers who were born and actually raced with a Title.

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 07 May 2017 - 13:53.

[Tim Murray]

That's fine by me. I only put it forward in case it was of interest to HistoryFan and other newer members here who might not know of it. It does, after all, contain many names who were born into the nobility.

[KWSN - DSM]

John Crichton-Stuart, 7th Marquess of Bute aka Johnny Dumfries

 

[Rob G]

Wolfgang von Trips certainly has to rank at or near the top.

[Henri Greuter]

Carel Godin de Beaufort was a Dutch noble, as is, (though he give no attention to it) Gijs van Lennep.

 

 

Henri

[E1pix]

Bill Noble. :-)

[LotusElise]

Earl Howe

Sir Henry Birkin

[PeterElleray]

Carel Godin de Beaufort was a Dutch noble, as is, (though he give no attention to it) Gijs van Lennep.

 

 

Henri

Never realised that (about van Lennep, not deBeaufort).

 

What would be his equivalent 'rank' in Engalnd Henri ? Is he a 'sir', a 'rt.hon', duke, lord, minor royalty? 

Edited by PeterElleray, 07 May 2017 - 15:15.

[Henri Greuter]

Never realised that (about van Lennep, not deBeaufort).

 

What would be his equivalent 'rank' in Engalnd Henri ? Is he a 'sir', a 'rt.hon', duke, lord, minor royalty? 

 

 

His Dutch title is "Jonkheer", but my dictionary didn't offer an English translation for it.

 

 

Henri

[Vitesse2]

Never realised that (about van Lennep, not deBeaufort).

 

What would be his equivalent 'rank' in Engalnd Henri ? Is he a 'sir', a 'rt.hon', duke, lord, minor royalty? 

 

His Dutch title is "Jonkheer", but my dictionary didn't offer an English translation for it.

 

 

Henri

Nearest UK equivalent would be a Knight - although if it's hereditary, I suppose it would go to the next highest step, which is Baronet.

[HistoryFan]

I heard that especially in the eary years of racing between 1894 and 1930 there were a lot of Noble drivers.

[Cavalier53]

Just having reviewed the earlier thread, indeed in the years 94-30 a lot of noblemen participated in racing. The moral of the story is that wealth is often hereditary, and was often available to nobility then.

Nowadays, wealth is still hereditary and certainly important to start a career in motorracing (Lance Stroll being the example).

 

In our country Prince Berhard van Oranje was an amateur racing driver, and now holds a controlling interest in the Circuit Zandvoort - with funds he made himself.

 

In the earlier thread, RacerDemon explained the position of our Jonkheer nobility. My family name is Graaf, but that doesn't make me an Earl or Count. And Cavalier is just the English "translation" for Ascona

Edited by Cavalier53, 07 May 2017 - 19:26.

[cpbell]

I heard that especially in the eary years of racing between 1894 and 1930 there were a lot of Noble drivers.

The Chevalier René de Knyff springs to mind.

Edited by cpbell, 07 May 2017 - 20:28.

[Dick Dastardly]

Sir Nicholas Williamson won the British Hillclimb Championship in 1970 & 72

[LotusElise]

Just having reviewed the earlier thread, indeed in the years 94-30 a lot of noblemen participated in racing. The moral of the story is that wealth is often hereditary, and was often available to nobility then.

Nowadays, wealth is still hereditary and certainly important to start a career in motorracing (Lance Stroll being the example).

 

In our country Prince Berhard van Oranje was an amateur racing driver, and now holds a controlling interest in the Circuit Zandvoort - with funds he made himself.

 

In the earlier thread, RacerDemon explained the position of our Jonkheer nobility. My family name is Graaf, but that doesn't make me an Earl or Count. And Cavalier is just the English "translation" for Ascona

 

At least one of the Swedish minor princes races, or did race, too. Can't remember which one.

[Dick Dastardly]

Could that be a Danish Prince, who races in the Copenhagen Historic Festival?

 

There was [maybe still is] a Lord Cross who raced and hill climbed a Cobra.

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 07 May 2017 - 21:38.

[LotusElise]

Could that be a Danish Prince, who races in the Copenhagen Historic Festival?

 

I've just looked, it's Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, who isn't actually a minor prince, but the King's son and middle child. He has won some Carrera Cup races.

[Dick Dastardly]

The guy I was thinking of is Prince Joachim of Denmark.

 

There's also Prince Leopold of Bavaria who has raced Porsches and BMWs in the World Endurance Championship, the World Touring Car Championship and at Bathurst

[lustigson]

Nearest UK equivalent would be a Knight - although if it's hereditary, I suppose it would go to the next highest step, which is Baronet.

 

I believe 'jonkheer' translates best to 'esquire', but I'm not sure.

[ensign14]

Nearest UK equivalent would be a Knight - although if it's hereditary, I suppose it would go to the next highest step, which is Baronet.

 

Equivalent to Sir John Whitmore then.

 

There's one right now in EuroF3; Ferdinand Zvonimir Maria Balthus Keith Michael Otto Antal Bahnam Leonhard von Habsburg.

 

Unfortunately he uses his first, rather than fifth, name for racing purposes.

 

One very noble Grand Prix win was the Czech in 1930; Prince Hermann zu Leiningen and Hans-Joachim von Morgen sharing the winning Bugatti.
 

[HairyScalextrix]

Bira?

[Kpy]

Bira?

Is the first mentioned by HistoryFan in #1

[charles r]

Not sure whether Nick von Preussen would count?

[Dick Dastardly]

Count Van Der Straten....founder of the VDS team of the 60s and 70s

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 08 May 2017 - 12:50.

[E1pix]

Wasn't the driver "John Winter" of some noble repute racing under a fake name?

[Henk Vasmel]

Not sure whether Nick von Preussen would count?

I am sure Hans Von Stuck doesn't count. He introduced the "Von" in his name himself, about a century ago, and there are still people who believe this joke

[Henk Vasmel]

The guy I was thinking of is Prince Joachim of Denmark.

 

There's also Prince Leopold of Bavaria who has raced Porsches and BMWs in the World Endurance Championship, the World Touring Car Championship and at Bathurst

As far as I remember, there was also a Prince Bertil from Sweden

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 10 May 2017 - 06:49.

[Henk Vasmel]

Wasn't the driver "John Winter" of some noble repute racing under a fake name?

His real name was Louis Krages, a wood merchant from Bremen. I can't remember any references to nobility.

[GazChed]

John Winter's real name was Louis Krages , a wealthy businessman , who used apseudonym to prevent his family finding about his racing activities . This worked well until he won the 1985 Le Mans 24 Hours with Klaus Ludwig and Paolo Barilla and his mum saw him on television standing on the podium ...
I am fairly sure he wasn't of noble birth just very wealthy .

[Paul Parker]

Wasn't the driver "John Winter" of some noble repute racing under a fake name?

 

Without checking I believe his real name was Louis Krages.

[E1pix]

Thanks Guys!

[HairyScalextrix]

Is the first mentioned by HistoryFan in #1

So I now see. <Stands in corner with conical D hat on>

[GazChed]

Mentioned in the earlier thread , Count Carlo Felice Trossi was successful in two post-war Grands Prix for Alfa Romeo , the 1947 Italian Grand Prix and the 1948 Swiss Grand Prix . He was one of the Ferrari teams earliest backers , becoming President in 1932 and also financed the wonderful , bizarre but unsuccessful , Trossi Monaco . He also enjoyed success in many smaller races pre war .

[GMACKIE]

Geoff is a pretty handy race driver :-

http://morganparkrac...com.au/2016/04/

[GazChed]

There was also the Earl of March , winner of the Brooklands 1931 JCC Double 12 Hours and founder of Goodwood motor racing circuit .
Count Stanislau Czaykowski was another Brooklands victor , winning the 1933 Empire Trophy in a Bugatti T49 , while George P Harvey Noble holds the Class H (750 cc) Outer Circuit Record and was also the last 130 mph badge winner in the Bentley Jackson on the 7th August 1939 .

[DogEarred]

Weren't the Dukes of Hazard successful in the Georgia Moonshine race series?....

[GazChed]

Unfortunately Lord Brett Sinclair's career ended before the beginning of The Persuaders , although there was mention of him being involved in a serious accident where another driver was seriously injured .

[DogEarred]

...And Steve McQueen was no slouch either...

[john aston]

If five seconds a lap slower than his posthumous reputation might suggest ( he said , snidely )

Edited by john aston, 10 May 2017 - 17:02.

[E1pix]

Weren't the Dukes of Hazard successful in the Georgia Moonshine race series?....

Dogmatic facts aside, the only Duke of repute there was Daisy.

Anyone could win knowing she was the Checkers.

[2F-001]

Zborowski? (Father and son.)

[LotusElise]

Isn't Rikky von Opel some sort of nobleman?

[2F-001]

Isn't Rikky von Opel some sort of nobleman?

Great-grandson of the Opel founder (and grandson?? of the rocket car creator?) but I didn't think he was a member of the nobility. Lauded, rather than 'lorded' antecedents, I'd say.

Edited by 2F-001, 10 May 2017 - 21:55.

[Sterzo]

Prince Jorge de Bagration was a noble racing driver in the seventies, competing in F2 amongst other categories - but he wasn't one of the best. That accolade has to go to Rene de Knyff or Wolfgang von Trips.

 

I'm hoping Ferdinand Habsburg makes it to F1. He's promising in European F3, and it's about time we had a Holy Roman Emperor competing.

[Michael Ferner]

Oh, I think the world has seen enough of Habsburgers "competing" - the last time, 99 years ago was a bit of a desaster!

[ensign14]

He could merge the A1-Ring with Budapest.  Frees up another race. 

[john winfield]

He could merge the A1-Ring with Budapest.  Frees up another race. 

 

A new street circuit in Sarajevo perhaps?

[john winfield]

Not sure whether Nick von Preussen would count?

 

 

I am sure Hans Von Stuck doesn't count. He introduced the "Von" in his name himself, about a century ago, and there are still people who believe this joke

 

So Henk, the Nick von Preussen that we saw race F3 back in the 1970s. Was he german nobility? What's the Stuck reference? Did Hans (father or son) boost his social standing by adding 'von' as a joke?

 

Not that this nobility business should matter anyway...!!  Class system, undue deference, Power to the People etc. etc.. Is there a thread on 'Working Class Heroes who Defied the Odds'?     Hermann Lang?