33 replies to this topic

[JonnyA]

Reading accounts of classic Indy 500s from the 1960s, there are plenty of comments on various aspects of qualifying, but I can't find anything that explains the system as a whole. I understand about the 4-lap qualifying runs, but how do times across Pole Day, Bump Day and the others result in a final grid?

 

I've tried Google but can't find a coherent account of the process - can anyone please point me at something that is available online?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Collombin]

Runs done on an earlier qualifying day would put the driver ahead on the grid of any runs done on a later date, even if those runs were faster.

But - and it's a big but - only the fastest 33 qualify for the race, irrespective of which day they qualified on, so playing safe on an early qualifying day could backfire as you could be bumped from the starting field.

In theory, a driver could do the first qualifying run on the first day of qualifying, then the rest of the day might be lost to rain. If 32 drivers beat his time later in the month, he would still start from pole, due to doing his run on the first qualifying day. But if 33 beat it, he wouldn't even qualify at all. Google Jigger Sirois 1969 as the classic example of how such a scenario nearly became reality.

Edited by E.B., 11 May 2017 - 21:17.

[Tom Glowacki]

Runs done on an earlier qualifying day would put the driver ahead on the grid of any runs done on a later date, even if those runs were faster.

But - and it's a big but - only the fastest 33 qualify for the race, irrespective of which day they qualified on, so playing safe on an early qualifying day could backfire as you could be bumped from the starting field.

In theory, a driver could do the first qualifying run on the first day of qualifying, then the rest of the day might be lost to rain. If 32 drivers beat his time later in the month, he would still start from pole, due to doing his run on the first qualifying day. But if 33 beat it, he wouldn't even qualify at all. Google Jigger Sirois 1969 as the classic example of how such a scenario nearly became reality.

To add to that, a later qualifying run that was faster than any of the 33 qualified cars, would "bump" the slowest of the 33 qualified cars.  If that slower car had qualified on one of the first three days, the cars qualified on the later days would all move up one place.  For example, the slowest qualified car was ninth fastest on Pole Day, the fastest second day qualifier would move to ninth on the grid, and everyone behind would also move up one spot.  On race day, the grid would line up with the Pole Day qualifiers at the front, in order of their qualifying speeds, followed by the Second Day, then the Third Day, and then the Fourth Day qualifiers, all gridded in order of their qualifying speeds on the day they qualified.

[Henri Greuter]

In the 60's, before that ant undtil, if my memory is correct, about 2005.

 

Four days of qualifying.  easch car has three attempts to qualify. But once you have qualified, you can't re-qualify that car anymore even if you in theory had two attempts left.

 

Filed is filled for the first 33 qualifiers as follows.

 

First day qualifiers, fastest on pole, to the slowest of the day.

 

Behind those first day qualifiers you get the second day qualifiers, ranked according speed of that second day. Being slower or faster that any or all of the First day qualifiers doesn't matter.

 

Behind the slowest of the second day qualifiers you get the thrid day qualifiers, ranked according their speed of the day.  Being slower or faster that any or all of the First and second day day qualifiers doesn't matter.

 

Then follow the Fourth day qualifiers also ranked according g speed of the day until there are 33 qualifiers and the field is filled.

 

If there are still cars ready to qualify, then the following is happening. (Now in my words what Tom Glowackck already described)

 

If the 34th car to qualify is faster than any of the 33 cars that already qualified, then the slowest of the 33 cars, no matter if he was first, second third or fourth day qualifer is "bumped" from the field and the new qualifier is added to the field according the ranking of his speed among the fourth day qualifiers. He doesn't take the spot form the bumped car, he only takes the place in ranking for the fourth day qualifiers. All cars behind the bumped car move one place up.

This process keeps on going on and on until no-one is able to make it into the fastest 33 anymore.

 

In theory it could be possible that drivers qualified at fairly low speeds on Pole day and conditions so much better on later days that a number of the slowest quialifiers on pole day were eliminated from the field. But it has also happened that drivers qualified as 33rd fastest and thus made the field but were "bumped" themselves by the next car.

It has never happened but in theory, it was possible that the car that was the fastest on the first day of qualifying and thus on the pole could have been bettered by 33 other cars and thus being bumped from the field.

 

Being ready early and qualify early (the first weekend)  was seen as an advantage. But if you qualified with a so-so speed, there was the risk that drivers who found speed in the week that followed could better your speed and you were bumped.

 

It could yield strange results. For example in 1991 when the weather on Pole day wasn't great, drivers had not that high speeds and a sudden rainbust ended all qualifying with 12 cars qualified and Rick Mears on Pole.

The following day Gary Bettenhausen, Emerson Fittipaldi and Arie Luyendijk qualified and all of them beated everyone but Rick Mears, Bettenhausen did also beat Mears. The fifth row was the fastest row of the field in qualifying that year....

 

Other comical situation the year when Penske failed to qualify in 1995. Emmo had driven laps on Saturday that were good enough but Roger himself terminated the attempt. The following day Fitti made the field on his last try with the car but was 33rd fastest. Had the attempt of the day before been completed, that would have been faster and he would have been safe but .....

Then came team mate Al Unser Snr with his third and last attempt: If he made the field it would be at the expence of his team mate! But he was too slow. Stefan Johansson was eventually faster than Fittipaldi and the miracle of '95 was done: No Penske cars qualified for the race.

 

Another classic was 1952. On the final day of qualifying Chet Miller was the fastest driver of the day and even of the entire year. So he was the first of the fourth day qualifiers in the field on spot 27. Next to him at the left in spot 26 was the 33rd fastest car. Fatest and slowest qualifier next to another in the field, the only time that happened.

 

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 May 2017 - 08:08.

[PeterElleray]

Pretty much what i remember from the late '80's Henri, when your car is 31st in the field it focuses your thoughts on the way cars are 'bumped'... 

[Glengavel]

How do you end up with a scheme like that in the first place? 

[7MGTEsup]

How do you end up with a scheme like that in the first place? 

 

I do often wonder how they came up with such a convoluted system.

[alfredaustria]

Pretty much what i remember from the late '80's Henri, when your car is 31st in the field it focuses your thoughts on the way cars are 'bumped'... 

 

Oh yes, it was a very Special qualifying System, only used for the Indy 500. And don't Forget that in the 60s and 70s up to 100 Drivers tried to qualify for the Indy 500.

 

Another speciality is, that the CAR is qualifyed and NOT the Driver. That means you can Change the Driver.

[Henri Greuter]

How do you end up with a scheme like that in the first place? 

 

 

Tradition!

 

The idea was to reward teams and drivers who were `ready` early in the month with the opportunity to start up front.

 

But do you know what was actually far more funny? How the assignent in which order drivers were permitted to go out for qualifying was settled!

 

 

Initially it was a matter of trhe first who presents his car for qualifying is permitted to go. Which resulted is a mad dash to the qualifying line in order to get an early spot and thus the chance to qualify on the first day. because in case of rain interferering, you could end up looising the chance to qualify as a first day qualifier.

 

It was by the way Colin Chapman who was involved with the end of that habit. In '63 he had missed out on getting a good early spot to qualify, complained and he was told that this was the way it was at indy and `shut up`.

But there were more people feeling this method was a bit too unorganized and then they introduced: `the draw`

 

After end of practice on the Friday, the day before Pole day, all teams send a representative to a meeting held under the tower. An official held in his had a bag with numbered beans and each team then had one representative pulling a pea out of the bag and the numbers on those beans determined the sequence in which drivers were send off to quailfy. or in Indy terms: the numbers of the qualifying line.

 

Another improvement with that was the following. Initially it was that had a driver missed out an attempt on pole day due to weather, bad luck brother, come back tomorrow for 2nd day qualifying. But with the qualifying line determined a new rule came, being; If the weather made it impossible to give every car for which a number was drawn a qualifying attempt, then the remaining cars were given a garuanteed attempt to qualify as First day qualifier and thus eliglble for the Pole at the first opportunity, whenever that might be.

 

The most extreme case of that scenario I can recall is 1990. Friday May 11th had been fine weather, great speeds, Jim Crawford gone up 6 feet high up in the air, a qualifying line drawn and the following Saturday Pole day was rained out. The following Sunday was also rainy but some practice could take place and about 16;00 hours 4 pm qualifying started but everyone knew that it was impossible to have everyone finishing his guaranteed attempt. So at 6 pm when qualifying was over there were some 11 cars left that still had ther shotr for the pole but had to wait till next weekend, Fittipaldi and Rick Mears had been the two fastest cars but the danger for them was that was it much better `faster` weather next weekend they could still loose their front row positions. Al Unser jr, who had been the fastest car of the month had yet to wait for next week, as were Arie Luyendijk and AJ Foyt.

These three and the other drivers not yet qualified then had to deal with the fact that, apart from working on a car setup to qualify, they also had to work on a setup for the race! They had a busy week compared with the already qualified drivers.

 

One week later the weather wasn't as good as the week before but Luyendijk surprised everyone with a great run to the 3rd qualifying place and every American at the Speedway "knew" that Foyt and Unser jr were better then Arie so they would go for the pole! No way....

Turned out that Arie was the only driver capable of qualifying faster than 221 mph (he was over 223) and had done an exceptionally well performance that day.  Little did we know at that time that one week later he would do the same in the race.

 

I was there in 1990 and saw it all happen and though race day is among my best moments ever in life, that third day of qualifying when Arie made it on the front row was till one week later my best ever day at the track. I never forget the sheer disbelief among the American fans how in the hell that Dutchman could have beaten their Unser Jr and (above all the near holy) AJ Foyt.

 

I mwentioned how in 1991 only 12 cars qualified and the fifth row, qualifying faster than the rows ahead. How could that happen?

Simple.

It started out a perfect day weatherwise but a bit humid. Als fate/luck wanted it, AJ Foyt was the first car to qualify, followed by Randy Lewis. He crashed and it took half an hour to clean up the track. During that half hour however, the weathjer became steaming hot and the track slower. So many drivers broke off theire first qualifying attempt being part of the qualifying line. Many waited for better weather later in the day.

Now, once the qualifying line is finished no-one has a guaranteed qualifying attempt anymore. Then it is a matter of, who makes it, well done, who passes up and is setup by the weather, tough luck man you had your chance.

Back in '91 everyone had had his one garuanteed attempt and only Rick Mears had managed to beat AJ Foyt's time, and Mario was third fastest. There was some practice and all of a sudden the news came in that bad weater was on the way. So a few drivers decided on qualifying now, despite the not so good conditions. One driver send out in time was Emerson Fittipaldi but he was not fast enough to take the pole and Roger Penske was afraid of loosing the pole to either Luyendijk or the two fastest Buick powered cars of Kevin Cogan and Gary Bettenhausen. In the grandstand we could see a monumental cloudburst rushing into the area, all of us talking about how clever Penske had been to have his both cars in the field after all as first day qualifiers and then he called in Fittipaldi and broke off the attempt!!!  The next car went out and then the rain came down in such a burst that it was easy to understand that there was no qualifying left anymore  that day and the pole decided to Mears. But Fittipaldi could have been in the first row or at least the second row had Penske allowed Fitti to complete his run. 

When people talk about bad decisions from Roger Pesnke that costed Fittipaldi dearly somehow, many mention the wave of on the third day of qualifying in '95. But a lesser known one, but bad decision too by Roger was on Pole day in '91. Fittipladi was 3rd fastest in the field of '91 but at the 14th starting spot but he could have been slower, yet higher up on the grid.

 

Whow, if I think back on those days, Man am I glad that I can say I've been at IMS in the years when qualifying for the field was still an effort of epic proportions!

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Oh yes, it was a very Special qualifying System, only used for the Indy 500. And don't Forget that in the 60s and 70s up to 100 Drivers tried to qualify for the Indy 500.

 

Another speciality is, that the CAR is qualifyed and NOT the Driver. That means you can Change the Driver.

 

 

Up to 100 drivers trying to qualify is a bit overexaggerated.

 

Your second line is more interesting to react upon. You are entirely correct, the car qualifies not the driver.

As a resuls we've had seen very different scenarios of a car being qualified by one driver but raced by another.

 

some of the most intereseting examples;

 

When Mario Andretti was driving F1 in the mid 70's he still competed at Indy but could not qualify himself all the time. His team bosses then hired other drivers to practice and qualify the car for Mario who then took over on race day but, according the rules had to start fro 33nd starting spot.

 

In 1971 Dick Simon had the obligation to drive in the 500 but he failed to qualify his own car, his rookie teammate Jooohn Mahler however had made the field and Simon took over that ride, starting 33rd.

 

in 1981 and 2011 respectively, George Snider and Bruno Juncquera had qualified an A.J Foyt team car for the race. but in '81 the ride was bought by the sponsors of Tim Richmond and they put him in the car while in 2011 the same happened on behalf of Ryan Hunter Reay. There have been more attempts to buy qualified cars. millionaire joel Thorne trioed to so so even before the war ant then to withdraw the cars so he, as alternate could start. There wera also stories that Not qualified Salt Walther tried to buy another qualified ride to take the wheel over.

 

Most unusual one I can think of is a case for which I can't find the year  and the name of the other driver involved anymore.

One year a driver had qualified a car but after being entirely rebuilt and drioven on Carb Day, the driver in question did not feel secure in the car anymore since its handling had changed beyond recognition and felt as if being a different car. He refused to start the race in the car but the car still kept the starting s[ot. The team instead hired a non qualified driver, Dempsey Wilson who started the race in a for him entirely unfamiliar car in 33rd position. His warm-up laps were the first laps he drove in the car.

 

Scott Goodyear is highly rated for, had he been a few seconds faster in two races and one time a few second slower, he could have been a three time winner. But his copy book is blotted by the fact that on no less that two occasions he could not make his car work properly and had team mates qualifying a car whcih he took over on race day. His legendary 2nd place behind Al Unser Sr in '92 was one of these two years when he took over a backup car qualified by a team mate.

 

Saddest case? 1996

Scott Brayton had qualified on the second starting spot with his primary car but he and his team took a brave gamble, withdrew the quialified car from the race and brayton requalified a backup car on Pole Position. A few days later Brayton crashed to his death in another backup car. The car in which he had won the pole was still eligible to start the race and it was driven in the race by Danny Ongais, starting from the last row.

 

 

 

You don't read such stories in F1 qualifying reports, do you.....

 

 

henri

[PeterElleray]

Posted this  before in another  thread but my all time favourite 'what if' Indy scenario involved Roger Penske offering Jackie Stewart the opportunity to qualify Mario's car  that year, according to Indy legend (which probably means not true).

 

I can't think of anything cooler than putting the car on the Pole for Mario and then steeping back into the commentary box for the race...

Edited by PeterElleray, 12 May 2017 - 12:57.

[Michael Ferner]

How do you end up with a scheme like that in the first place? 

 
 

I do often wonder how they came up with such a convoluted system.

I don't think it's convoluted at all, people make it sound like it is because their explanations are so complicated

It's actually pretty simple: the 33 fastest cars qualify, and they are lined up by day of qualification. That's all.

And that's not at all particular to Indy, by the way, as all qualifying in US single seater racing was like that, except that most of it was held in a single day. But when it was split into two or more days, first day qualifiers always had preference. Oh, and the same system was used in F1 also, e.g. Monaco 1950.

Also, it's not special to Indy that the car qualifies, and not the driver. Until 1974, that was a solid rule in Formula One, too, and I think in most other categories for several more years. It used to be motor (car) racing, nowadays it is merely drivers racing.

[JonnyA]

Thanks for the answers everone, and the fascinating stories accompanying them. The system itself is if anything simpler than I expected, but I had no idea Indy qualifying could be so tactical. Now I understand why so many fans would watch the whole of qualifying, even though it was spread over different weekends.

[MCS]

Already a great thread.  Seriously doubt I'll have anything to contribute other than "keep going guys"   

[E1pix]

I love the system, Mark.

The only downside is the lack of Days 3 and 4, every one of the four days used to be awesome!!!

[Henri Greuter]

Already a great thread.  Seriously doubt I'll have anything to contribute other than "keep going guys"   

 

 

Well, maybe you will like this story too.

 

On Carburetion day of 1986 there was crash in which Dennis Firestone, George Snider and Roberto Moreno wiped out their qualified cars,

Dennis Firestone had no back-up car so he was out of the race, first alternate Dick Simon took over as 33rd. (And after the race he split his earnings with Firestone for that matter)

Moreno had a backup car and was permitted to start from 32nd spot.

Now: George Snider.

 

George had qualified a March 86C with Cosworth engine for AJ Foyt. But the rules stated that only identical backup cars to the one that had to be replaced were permitted. And Foyt had no 86C-DFX anymore!

What Foyt did have was an 86C which was fitted with a turbocharged Chevy V6 stock block engine, built up by his engine man Howard Gilbert. One year before that engine had been used in a March 85C, driven by Snider but then the engine failed after 13 laps, for a 32nd place. Mike Nish failed to qualify the engine in an 86C.

 

Edit: The engine was already tried in 1984 in a March 84C but Johnny Rutherford failed to qualify the car.

 

After the Carb day session, the 86C-Chevy was rebuilt into a 86C-Cosworth for Snider so he could start the race in 31st spot. The ignition on the Cossie failed after 110 laps and he was classified 26th.

 

 

Now, I can break off the post here. But now I talk about Snider's car of 1986 in the actual race, then you get into a subject of which a lot can be told and maybe this is, to some extend: `fun` in all its sadness....

 

This was the highlight in the career of this particular March 86C chassis, the 86C-34. It was back at Indy in 1987 but again with the Chevy V6 engine. George Snider had to drive the car, qualified it in 31st place. During the warm up laps the turbocharger went ablaze and Snider parked the car even before the green flag fell: 0 laps for the engine, 33rd place...

Snider had enough of the engine by now to try it another time in '88and Stan Fox qualified the 86C-034 with Chevy engine in 29th spot. This time the engine held out for two laps .... Fox had the luck that there had been a first lap accident in which three cars had retired on the spot so Fox was classified 30th instead of 33rd....

The 86C-034-Chevy did not qualify for 1989 anymore. The car appears in the entry lists of 1990 and checking out the Day-by-day reports of 1990 it is listed that AJ Foyt himself for once drove the car. Assuming the data are indeed correct: Foyt was during his test laps faster with the 4 year old car than the 1990 March Alfa Romeo's ever were in the entire month! I missed these laps of the 86C-Chevy.

 

But the cool facts for that Chevy engine of Foyt were: in 5 years, 3 races 2 DNQ's, in three races 13, 0 and 2 laps done, classified 32nd, 33rd and 30th but that should have been 33rd normally....

The similar cool facts for March 86C-34 were: three races in which covered 110 laps thanks to a Cosworth DFX, 0 and 2 laps with that Chevy.....

 

 

To this day I still can't undestand what, for Heaven's sake Foyt wanted to achieve with this entire project but I do understand why he never ever wanted to drive the car himself in the race....

The best rumour I heard why Foyt wanted that engine was this. Stock block engines were permitted a higher turboboost. the pop-off valves on the engines were released by USAC and set at the boos permitted. But nothing prevented Foyt mechanics to take the pop-off off the Chevy engine and put it on Foyt's Cosworth engine instead and use a marginally higher boost for some extra speeds....

But such is never proved. But then, there are more stories about things having taken place at Indy but never told or officially confirmed  to save faces....

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 May 2017 - 13:22.

[PeterElleray]

The phrase "we need one of AJ's valves " was bandied about with a nod and a wink during that era at the Speedway! Who knows?

Edited by PeterElleray, 13 May 2017 - 15:12.

[E1pix]

Wonderful tale, Henri.

[Henk Vasmel]

[...]

 

Henri

Nice story. Now I am trying to fit the details in into my database, but what is missing is the relevant starting numbers for the cars involved. At least Indy '86 but if possible the other races too. It is pretty obvious to me that numbers (44) and (84) are involved, but I cannot quite find out which is which.

[Henri Greuter]

Nice story. Now I am trying to fit the details in into my database, but what is missing is the relevant starting numbers for the cars involved. At least Indy '86 but if possible the other races too. It is pretty obvious to me that numbers (44) and (84) are involved, but I cannot quite find out which is which.

 

I assume you're looking in details about the cars in which that Chevy sat?

 

'84 it was Calumet Farms #84, an 84C

'85 it was Gilmore Racing #44, an 85C

from '86 to at least '89, but very likely also in '90  it was built into 86C-034 and entered as

 

'86  Calumet Farm #44,

But that actual chassis raced on race day as #84 Copenhagen/Calumet Farm with Cosworth DFX engine

'87  Calumet Farm #84

'88  Calumet Farm #84

'89  Calumet Farm #84

 

My 1990 data are vague because it lists the car as #14 Copenhagen Gilmore. At best it could have been 14T at the track or, as it appears in the entry lists: 84.

But I didn't see the car in action that year. I know for sure that, had I seen it I would have made a picture of what was the oldest car entered. Besides that, any appearance of that car at speed was something special....

 

Hope this helps?

 

BTW, Data base? You keep one? Which period of time?

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Already a great thread.  Seriously doubt I'll have anything to contribute other than "keep going guys"   

 

 

Hm, not exactly fitting the rules exactly if it comes to the subject of the topic. But still, this is another great story, very familiar for Indyfans among us. But maybe there are people checking in into this thread because of the Alonoso-Indy thing and not familiar yet with stories like this.

But this is another nice story that pretty much finds its origins due to the qualification rules.

 

We write 1980.  Thanks to the success of wing cars in F1 and how Al Unser Sr. had shown the way to go in the future the year before with the Chapparal 2K, a number of new wing cars were built, among them. One of these cars of which a few were built were the Phoenix-Cosworths (Now I definitely need to dig deep into more about these cars because I know they existed but I know little about their backgrounds.)

Anyway, Jerry MCConnell Racing had one such car at indy for their primary driver Tom Sneva. Tom qualified the car 14th during the first weekend of qualifying, was not truly happy with it but it was good enough. Then, a few days later he crashed the car beyond repairs on one of the following practice days.

Now: I must admit that I am not sure if at that thime the rules already stated that backup cars to replace lost cars had to be identical. Anyway, if that was the case, that rule was waived and Sneva was permitted to start the race in the backup car of the team, which was a non ground-effects McLaren M24-Cosworth, but as ever, he had to take the last starting spot.

Tom was very familiar with M24's and happy to drive one another time.

 

Race day was struck by a number of yellow lights so it wasn't a very fast race. Pole sitter Rutherford in the Chapparal 2K wing car won with ease but amazingly enough: Sneva finished a strong second, one of the first times ever that the 33rd starter finished second, a performance later on matched by Mario (1981 and Scott Goodyear '92). Sneva became the first driver ever who had started 33rd and last but still managed to lead the race.

But what made 1980 even more remarkable was that apart from 33rd starter Sneva making it to second, the 32nd starter, Gary Bettenhausen (who had qualified a 1976 Wildcat-Offy as slowest car/driver in the field) finished 3rd!  Thus 2/3rd of the last row made it into the top three that year...... And for good measure: the third man on the last row: Tom Bigalow was classified 8th, making the performance of `the last row of 1980` one of the best ever in Indy history by any last row and maybe even of any starting row in any indy starting field.

 

 

Henri

[Henk Vasmel]

This helps a lot.

My database has been set up about 2 years ago. US races starting in 1904, until mid 2015. Since it is not my first interest, it doesn't get the attention my Sports Cars databases get. I am absolutely sure that more info is avaialable, but unfortunately most of the days are no longer than 24 hours, so that limits me. I am trying to get down to Chassis number details, and I have found more than I hoped for, still it is far from complete.

It started with the 1950-1960 Indy WC races, and some pre-war US races, but now it is supposed to include all Indycar (under whatever name) races. in the meantime, Pikes Peak has been taken out again to form a new database called hill-climbs, but that is in its infancy.

If you are interested in a copy of the Indy database, feel free to ask.

 

[Henri Greuter]

 

This helps a lot.

My database has been set up about 2 years ago. US races starting in 1904, until mid 2015. Since it is not my first interest, it doesn't get the attention my Sports Cars databases get. I am absolutely sure that more info is avaialable, but unfortunately most of the days are no longer than 24 hours, so that limits me. I am trying to get down to Chassis number details, and I have found more than I hoped for, still it is far from complete.

It started with the 1950-1960 Indy WC races, and some pre-war US races, but now it is supposed to include all Indycar (under whatever name) races. in the meantime, Pikes Peak has been taken out again to form a new database called hill-climbs, but that is in its infancy.

If you are interested in a copy of the Indy database, feel free to ask.

 

 

 

 

I might contact you about this shortly, thanks.

But I don't have that many years of which I have the data compiled so I can be of only limited help for a short period of time only.

 

Henri

[E1pix]

Hank, my old friend David Donner might be interested in helping out on the Hillclimb stuff. He loves that place and has carried on 28 years after losing his big brother near the Peak.

Great work, Henri! No offense please, but being raised a Cheesehead I want to point out it's spelled:
Tom Bigelow (Whitewater, Wisconsin).

[Henri Greuter]

Hank, my old friend David Donner might be interested in helping out on the Hillclimb stuff. He loves that place and has carried on 28 years after losing his big brother near the Peak.

Great work, Henri! No offense please, but being raised a Cheesehead I want to point out it's spelled:
Tom Bigelow (Whitewater, Wisconsin).

 

No offence taken, thanks for the support and corrections to set things straight.

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

SNIP

 

We write 1980.  Thanks to the success of wing cars in F1 and how Al Unser Sr. had shown the way to go in the future the year before with the Chapparal 2K, a number of new wing cars were built, among them. One of these cars of which a few were built were the Phoenix-Cosworths (Now I definitely need to dig deep into more about these cars because I know they existed but I know little about their backgrounds.)

Anyway, Jerry MCConnell Racing had one such car at indy for their primary driver Tom Sneva. Tom qualified the car 14th during the first weekend of qualifying, was not truly happy with it but it was good enough. Then, a few days later he crashed the car beyond repairs on one of the following practice days.

Now: I must admit that I am not sure if at that thime the rules already stated that backup cars to replace lost cars had to be identical. Anyway, if that was the case, that rule was waived and Sneva was permitted to start the race in the backup car of the team, which was a non ground-effects McLaren M24-Cosworth, but as ever, he had to take the last starting spot.

Tom was very familiar with M24's and happy to drive one another time.

 

Race day was struck by a number of yellow lights so it wasn't a very fast race. Pole sitter Rutherford in the Chapparal 2K wing car won with ease but amazingly enough: Sneva finished a strong second, one of the first times ever that the 33rd starter finished second, a performance later on matched by Mario (1981 and Scott Goodyear '92). Sneva became the first driver ever who had started 33rd and last but still managed to lead the race.

But what made 1980 even more remarkable was that apart from 33rd starter Sneva making it to second, the 32nd starter, Gary Bettenhausen (who had qualified a 1976 Wildcat-Offy as slowest car/driver in the field) finished 3rd!  Thus 2/3rd of the last row made it into the top three that year...... And for good measure: the third man on the last row: Tom Bigalow was classified 8th, making the performance of `the last row of 1980` one of the best ever in Indy history by any last row and maybe even of any starting row in any indy starting field.

 

 

Henri

 

 

I was reading the 1980 Hungness yearbook this morning and ran into the detatls on Sneva's replacement car.

 

The rules as of how to bring in the backup in the field and start from 33rd were new. Sneva was given three options, Repair and keep the 14th spot, withdraw the car and re-qualify another car for wahtever spot it qualified in the field as 3rd or 4th day qualifier or indeed, start from 33rd with a backup.

Turned out that the team did no longer have a suitable backup anymore and instead, they made an arrangement with Wayne Woodward to fit his engineless #81 McLaren with the engine of Sneva and renumber 81 into 9T and 9 on Race day,

 

Henri

[B Squared]

I assume you're looking in details about the cars in which that Chevy sat?
 
'84 it was Calumet Farms #84, an 84C

Johnny Rutherford in the Foyt/March 84C with Chevrolet V-6 as mentioned by Henri. Sorry about the photo size. I couldn't get my system photo editor to work this morning.

photo: B² collection

[Henri Greuter]

Johnny Rutherford in the Foyt/March 84C with Chevrolet V-6 as mentioned by Henri. Sorry about the photo size. I couldn't get my system photo editor to work this morning.

photo: B² collection

 

Thanks for posting Brian!

 

Henri

[B Squared]

No problem, I've got another, nearly identical shot of another driver onboard, also in 1984. I'll see if I can determine who and then post it too.

[7MGTEsup]

 
 

I don't think it's convoluted at all, people make it sound like it is because their explanations are so complicated

It's actually pretty simple: the 33 fastest cars qualify, and they are lined up by day of qualification. That's all.

And that's not at all particular to Indy, by the way, as all qualifying in US single seater racing was like that, except that most of it was held in a single day. But when it was split into two or more days, first day qualifiers always had preference. Oh, and the same system was used in F1 also, e.g. Monaco 1950.

Also, it's not special to Indy that the car qualifies, and not the driver. Until 1974, that was a solid rule in Formula One, too, and I think in most other categories for several more years. It used to be motor (car) racing, nowadays it is merely drivers racing.

 

Just seems odd to me that if you're a last day qualifier you can run quicker than the pole man but still start at the back.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 18 May 2017 - 08:45.

[Henri Greuter]

No problem, I've got another, nearly identical shot of another driver onboard, also in 1984. I'll see if I can determine who and then post it too.

 

Brian, did you by chance also have a picture of the car in 1990?

 

AJ is listed in the Day-By-Day reports of 1990 as having driven the car one day that year in the first week of practice (which I missed, I flew in on Fast Friday, almost collidded in the air with Jim Crawford   )

 

What I still felt remarkable about those laps that AJ, with a '86 vintage chassis, modified to comply with the new underfloor regulations, he was still faster than any speed set by Guerrero and Unser Sr. in the 1990 design March-Alfa's .....

I can't help it that I can't take that entire project very serious but that performance in 1990 was something special.

 

 

Henri

[B Squared]

No photo of the 1990 effort, sorry Henri.

Don't forget that 1990 March with the Alfa power for Patrick was a bit of a struggle and I think they sat out a race or two awaiting their Lola T9000's for the Michigan 500. I ended up having to call the accident that saw Big Al destroy his new Lola against the wall at Station Six (same place as my Randy Lanier experience in 1986, and a damn near carbon copy of it) when (I believe) his right-rear suspension collapsed.

[E1pix]

Just seems odd to me that if you're a last day qualifier you can run quicker than the pole man but still start at the back.

Not at all. It demands performance within a given time frame.

[Henri Greuter]

No photo of the 1990 effort, sorry Henri.

Don't forget that 1990 March with the Alfa power for Patrick was a bit of a struggle and I think they sat out a race or two awaiting their Lola T9000's for the Michigan 500. I ended up having to call the accident that saw Big Al destroy his new Lola against the wall at Station Six (same place as my Randy Lanier experience in 1986, and a damn near carbon copy of it) when (I believe) his right-rear suspension collapsed.

 

 

Thanks for look B2, It was a long shot anyway.

 

 

I certainly remember those Alfa's,  am I permitted to post a reminde how much I was into all of that? I even asked your assistance!

 

 

http://8w.forix.com/march90ca.html

 

 

From what I can figure out, something like 75% of all pictures you find on the Internet of those 1990 March-Alfas at Indy are made by me and copied from the source I linked.....

 

 

Henri