100 replies to this topic

[Swck81]

Vettel lost Spanish GP due to clever strategy after Hamilton pitted at the end of vsc forcing Vet to pit under green flag. Personally I think it is hard on Vettel as it is 2nd time this season his race was affected by sc/vsc. But good thinking by Merc.

What is your take on it? Should sc/vsc periods be regulated in regards to pit stops and how is it regulated in us racing where sc periods are more frequent?

It seems to me some teams (RB) are gambling with tactics (getting rid of harder tyre early) to take advantage of late sc and some even forced sc in the past to help other driver (Piquet Jr/Alonso).

Edited by Swck81, 15 May 2017 - 08:31.

[Marklar]

I see it as part of the game, even if I think that the VSC system is stil poorly deployed and very difficult to understand for the spectator, which is always a bad thing.

[Peat]

It was a rare masterstroke from Merc but carried a fair amount of risk re: tyre deg.

So, fair play to them for capitalizing on a situation.

[Wuzak]

Swings and roundabouts.

 

Vettel would have gained the lead in China by pitting under the VSC, but was thwarted whan teh SC came out immediately when Giovinazzi crashed on the VSC restart.

[LiJu914]

Vettel lost Spanish GP due to clever strategy after Hamilton pitted at the end of vsc forcing Vet to pit under green flag. Personally I think it is hard on Vettel as it is 2nd time this season his race was affected by sc/vsc. But good thinking by Merc.

What is your take on it? Should sc/vsc periods be regulated in regards to pit stops and how is it regulated in us racing where sc periods are more frequent?

It seems to me some teams (RB) are gambling with tactics (getting rid of harder tyre early) to take advantage of late sc and some even forced sc in the past to help other driver (Piquet Jr/Alonso).

Hopefully they don´t regulate anything. We had "US-style" SC-Periods in 2008...and it wasn´t pretty.

[Peat]

But, closing the pits would be alot simplier now than in 2008 as they all have fuel to finish the race.

[Nonesuch]

It's absolutely terrible. Having one guy lose 25 seconds in a stop and another just 10 simply because the race director can't be bothered to enforce local yellow flag rules is just ridiculous in what is supposedly the FIA's premier international competition.

 

This single bad rule also ruined much of the second half of the 2015 WEC season, with nonsensical FCYs being thrown around for incidents in one corner.

[SpeedRacer`]

Vettel lost Spanish GP due to clever strategy after Hamilton pitted at the end of vsc forcing Vet to pit under green flag. Personally I think it is hard on Vettel as it is 2nd time this season his race was affected by sc/vsc. But good thinking by Merc.

What is your take on it? Should sc/vsc periods be regulated in regards to pit stops and how is it regulated in us racing where sc periods are more frequent?

It seems to me some teams (RB) are gambling with tactics (getting rid of harder tyre early) to take advantage of late sc and some even forced sc in the past to help other driver (Piquet Jr/Alonso).

 

HAM also lost time as the VSC period ended just as he entered the pits, so cars were back to racing speed for most of his stop (which allowed VET to cover it the following lap).

 

Bizarrely nobody seemed to notice this, Merc even congratulated their strat guy for saving over 10 seconds (in reality this was much smaller, just the time of HAM to cross the speed limit line roughly).

[timmy bolt]

It's absolutely terrible. Having one guy lose 25 seconds in a stop and another just 10 simply because the race director can't be bothered to enforce local yellow flag rules is just ridiculous in what is supposedly the FIA's premier international competition.

 

This single bad rule also ruined much of the second half of the 2015 WEC season, with nonsensical FCYs being thrown around for incidents in one corner.

Vettel could have pitted in the VSC period as well. Nothing stopped him. In fact every driver on the grid could have.  I don't see the issue, its an important strategic decision and what's wrong with that?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

No, the sport is over regulated as it is, so see it as part of the game, part of F1 which HAS always been there...

[LiJu914]

But, closing the pits would be alot simplier now than in 2008 as they all have fuel to finish the race.

But they´re still tyre changes and team being out of sync etc.

But on second thought, i might be ok with closing the pits under the VSC...however under a real SC i still think, it shouldn´t be regulated.

[timmy bolt]

HAM also lost time as the VSC period ended just as he entered the pits, so cars were back to racing speed for most of his stop (which allowed VET to cover it the following lap).

 

Bizarrely nobody seemed to notice this, Merc even congratulated their strat guy for saving over 10 seconds (in reality this was much smaller, just the time of HAM to cross the speed limit line roughly).

 

Vettel was 6 s ahead before the stops so it was that much. I was actually surprised by how much it was as well tbh, but it had to be right at the end of the VSC to make it work.

 

We should also not forget that potentially the VSC would have been beneficial to Vettel if Merc didn't play that strategy, it almost guaranteed Vettel could do a 2 stop race whereas he was borderline before because of his early first stop.

[Nonesuch]

I don't see the issue, its an important strategic decision and what's wrong with that?

 

There is nothing strategic about one guy deciding now is the two lap window for making cheap stops. It's a lottery.

[Swck81]

This subject was meant to be not about HAM/VET situation but about sc/vsc pitting rules in general. Spanish GP was just food for thought to me regardless if HAM/VET lost/gain. It just seems to me is a bit harsh on a driver that looses significant time during pit stops under sc/vsc (HAM included after he had to pit behind BOT under SC 2 races ago). I was also wondering how this is regulated in other series.

Edited by Swck81, 15 May 2017 - 08:57.

[JG]

Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes not. Ericsson lost out, and Wehrlein gained a lot (pitting a the right moment).

[LiJu914]

HAM also lost time as the VSC period ended just as he entered the pits, so cars were back to racing speed for most of his stop (which allowed VET to cover it the following lap).
 
Bizarrely nobody seemed to notice this, Merc even congratulated their strat guy for saving over 10 seconds (in reality this was much smaller, just the time of HAM to cross the speed limit line roughly).

HAM didn´t gain the potential maximum advantage of a pit-stop under VSC, but it still gave him ~5-6 seconds compared to Vettel, as Vettel´s gap to HAM was ~7-8sec before the stops - and as we saw it was completely gone, when VET stopped one lap later (the remaining difference was tyres during that one lap).

Edited by LiJu914, 15 May 2017 - 09:01.

[Stephane]

Conway lost out twice to VSC last week at Spa. He pitted the lap before each time.

[teejay]

"My guy lost and I need to blame something"

[Rinehart]

Vettel lost Spanish GP due to clever strategy after Hamilton pitted at the end of vsc forcing Vet to pit under green flag. Personally I think it is hard on Vettel as it is 2nd time this season his race was affected by sc/vsc. But good thinking by Merc.

What is your take on it? Should sc/vsc periods be regulated in regards to pit stops and how is it regulated in us racing where sc periods are more frequent?

It seems to me some teams (RB) are gambling with tactics (getting rid of harder tyre early) to take advantage of late sc and some even forced sc in the past to help other driver (Piquet Jr/Alonso).

 

This race outcome was the consequence of many things from Vettels Friday problems to his lock up in Q3, to his strategy to go soft in the second stint to his teams decision to pit him into traffic to his failure to overtake Bottas and some backmarkers quicker and his pace on the medium tyre... and that's before taking into considerations all the factors on Hamiltons side... including his ability to get over 30 laps out of the softs... All in all the VSC was just one element of many that combined to create a thrilling race and a fair result. No changes needed.

Edited by Rinehart, 15 May 2017 - 09:09.

[Wuzak]

It's absolutely terrible. Having one guy lose 25 seconds in a stop and another just 10 simply because the race director can't be bothered to enforce local yellow flag rules is just ridiculous in what is supposedly the FIA's premier international competition.

 

This single bad rule also ruined much of the second half of the 2015 WEC season, with nonsensical FCYs being thrown around for incidents in one corner.

 

How do you enforce it? By regulating a speed through the zone? Minimum time of arrival?

 

How much slower does a car have to be to satisfy the race director that he is respecting the flags?

[Retrofly]

Its fine.

[Kristian]

It pissed me off, but its the same for everyone, therefore I don't really see the problem. Vettel's next tyre was medium so I don't know why Ferrari didn't pit under it as well as there was less risk of the long stint causing problems.  

[Kev00]

It's luck of the draw. More than anything it was a mistake from Ferrari not to pit Vettel under VSC than bad luck.

[LiJu914]

How do you enforce it? By regulating a speed through the zone? Minimum time of arrival?
 
How much slower does a car have to be to satisfy the race director that he is respecting the flags?

Maybe, you could split the track into several "safety sectors" and impose VSC just for the affected sectors.

But no need to get too anal about all that, imho. There will always be a bit of luck involved in racing.

[SenorSjon]

Ferrari was horrendous on strategy. 

 

Merc used Bottas > Vettel lost 5-6 seconds

Vettel missed 2 opportunities to pit > Vettel lost another 9 seconds.

 

It was near the window for the last tire stop. He had to stop anyway and Vettel made the stop 1 lap after the VSC ended, so everyone at full speed. It was an idiotic mistake and the monkeys on the Ferrari wall are back.

Edited by SenorSjon, 15 May 2017 - 09:29.

[Ruusperi]

Anything that increases unpredictability these days is a bless. Since reliability is so high, we really don't see surprises these day apart from SC/VSC and weather.

[Ferrari2183]

It's not so much pitting under the VSC that won Mercedes the race but rather that Hamilton decided to take the medium tyre at the first stop and Bottas being a moving roadblock for a few laps... Once that happened, VSC or not, he had the strategy high ground.

Had Vettel pit under the VSC then Hamilton would have just did the opposite because he was already on the prime tyre.

Ferrari's problem was not committing to the 3 stop after the short first stint. This allowed Hamilton to run to a delta while Vettel was on the medium tyre.

They outfoxed Ferrari twice strategically in this race.

[P123]

Yeah, it can be a bit of a lottery, Just like a SC. Not sure what the solution is though. With respect to this race, Ferrari could have pitted Vettel too, so it was their failure in strategy that cost them a few seconds to Merc. They all know by now that pitting under VSC saves time. Mercs decision was not without risk either given the laps required on the softs.

[ANF]

Why don't they lower the pitlane speed limit during VSC?

[timmy bolt]

There is nothing strategic about one guy deciding now is the two lap window for making cheap stops. It's a lottery.

Much less of a lottery than an actual safety car. You know how much time a VSC is going to save / cost you. Safety cars are a part of F1.

 

As for "one guy deciding", I think what you mean is a driver went out and one guy decided it was too dangerous to allow cars to race at full speed. He wasn't getting bored and using it as a pick me up.

[Kalmake]

Solution would be to lower pit lane speed limit during VSC.

[w1Y]

I remember so many people on here arguing it made no difference when it first came about. There is such a big gain from it.More so on fast tracks but I guess it depends what the safety delta is

The is no refuelling now so the only way to make it fair would be to ban pitting

Edited by w1Y, 15 May 2017 - 09:44.

[SpeedRacer`]

HAM didn´t gain the potential maximum advantage of a pit-stop under VSC, but it still gave him ~5-6 seconds compared to Vettel, as Vettel´s gap to HAM was ~7-8sec before the stops - and as we saw it was completely gone, when VET stopped one lap later (the remaining difference was tyres during that one lap).

 

Yes that sounds right.

 

Had HAM stopped one lap earlier and VET on the same lap, HAM would've been clearly ahead as he would've had the full benefit of a VSC stop (as Merc claimed he had!)

 

But of course VET would probably have stopped on the next lap, with the semi-VSC-stop! I suspect that he would still have been ahead as HAM wouldn't have been able to use his new tyres at full speed for most of the lap except probably the last sector.

[Nonesuch]

How much slower does a car have to be to satisfy the race director that he is respecting the flags?

 

He has settled on 0,5 seconds slower than the session best sector time.

 

Or at least he did in 2014 before F1 had its first fatal accident in two decades.

 

Now he has seemingly given up and just uses the VSC.

 

Conway lost out twice to VSC last week at Spa. He pitted the lap before each time.

 

Right, it's hardly unique to F1.

Edited by Nonesuch, 15 May 2017 - 09:54.

[MattK9]

The pits should be closed during VSC periods but open during normal SC periods. I think that would be fair.

Personally I don't think there is any need to ever have a safety car when the VSC can do the job much better. 

 

I just wish had they had a system that could enforce VSC type speeds around just one sector of the track. Maybe the marshals could put out some sort of flag to indicate where these sectors could begin and end??!!?!??

[Nonesuch]

Such a system already exists and is used at Le Mans.

[Stephane]

They do it at Le Mans and Nurb 24h races. Circuit length has a big part in this choice.

[sabjit]

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to closing the pitlane under a VSC (VSC only and not SC).

 

I'm not unhappy that it is used strategically to gain time at the moment as it is the same for everyone. But the point of VSC is that you are trying to restart the race the same way it was when the VSC was first deployed. Anyone wishing to pit would not be that disadvantaged by waiting until after the VSC, they would lose just as much time as if there was no VSC. Therefore nobody can be advantaged or disadvantaged by a VSC which can only be a good thing.

[Wuzak]

He has settled on 0,5 seconds slower than the session best sector time.

 

Or at least he did in 2014 before F1 had its first fatal accident in two decades.

 

Now he has seemingly given up and just uses the VSC.

 

The VSC was called because a recovery vehicle was required to remove the car. Ha dthey been able to wheel it out of the way the yellow flags would have been sufficient.

 

But 0.5s in a sector is hardly sufficiently slow when there is a recovery vehicle on the circuit.

[Gretsch]

Since the VSC is there to maintain relative positions and so on, of course the pits must be closed. In this particular instance it was not a master stroke from Merc, it would have been idiotic not to pit. Likewise for FER, it was idiotic not to take the free pit stop. Because that is what VSC is, basically, a free pit stop. I don't think that was the original idea.

If someone needs to pit for repairs or something let them, but add an automatic drive through under green for those pitting under VSC

Edited by Gretsch, 15 May 2017 - 10:16.

[cpbell]

HAM also lost time as the VSC period ended just as he entered the pits, so cars were back to racing speed for most of his stop (which allowed VET to cover it the following lap).

 

Bizarrely nobody seemed to notice this, Merc even congratulated their strat guy for saving over 10 seconds (in reality this was much smaller, just the time of HAM to cross the speed limit line roughly).

I thought that at the time.  You could see the "VSC ending" graphic appeared just as Hamilton made his way into the pitlane.

[SenorSjon]

Such a system already exists and is used at Le Mans.

 

 

They do it at Le Mans and Nurb 24h races. Circuit length has a big part in this choice.

 

Those slow zones are extremely dangerous. More than once you see cars piling up at the start of it.

[pdac]

On the one hand, I think the pits should be closed. On the other, I like the lottery aspect. I think I'd err on the side of closing the pits - well, close the pit exit - while the safety car or virtual safety car is in operation and reverse the 'luck' aspect to make the safety car/virtual safety car an unfortunate event for those who were wanting to pit at that time.

 

Edit:

Perhaps close the pits for VSC and close the pit exit for SC until the cars are all together and then open the pit exit after the pack passes and close it again after those queueing have joined the circuit.

Edited by pdac, 15 May 2017 - 10:36.

[MikeTekRacing]

if the decision to pit is such an obvious advantage why hasn't ferrari pitted first? 

It's a strategy call, I see no reason to be banned. It's fully in the team's hands to decide weather to use it or not at that stage of their race.

[Kristian]

 

Personally I don't think there is any need to ever have a safety car when the VSC can do the job much better. 

 

 

Some classic races have been the result of SCs though; I kind of miss that aspect when a VSC is used. With so few variables in F1 now (easy runoffs, bulletproof reliability, less rain racing), getting rid of the Safety Car periods would definitely lose something from the sport. 

[Nonesuch]

But 0.5s in a sector is hardly sufficiently slow when there is a recovery vehicle on the circuit.

 

The FIA race director disagreed when he cooked up that number 2014, and the FIA endorsed it by not firing him the moment he came up with that ludicrous idea.

 

So in that sense, the VSC is an improvement. The marshals are now able to do their work more safely than before.

 

However, this doesn't mean the VSC is the only method that can be used to ensure the marshals' safety.

 

Given his record though, it makes little sense to have confidence in the FIA race director's ability to enforce alternative methods.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

On the one hand, I think the pits should be closed. On the other, I like the lottery aspect. I think I'd err on the side of closing the pits - well, close the pit exit - while the safety car or virtual safety car is in operation and reverse the 'luck' aspect to make the safety car/virtual safety car an unfortunate event for those who were wanting to pit at that time.

 

Edit:

Perhaps close the pits for VSC and close the pit exit for SC until the cars are all together and then open the pit exit after the pack passes and close it again after those queueing have joined the circuit.

 

Didn't they try this ONCE?

[Nonesuch]

Personally I don't think there is any need to ever have a safety car when the VSC can do the job much better.

 

The safety car has the added benefit of bunching up the cars into one group. This means there will be about two minutes where no cars are passing the area where an incident took place. This allows the marshals to work on the middle of the track to clean up potential debris etc.

 

Unfortunately, this advantage is negated when the FIA race director fails to properly deploy the safety car - such as in China this year, where there were still huge gaps between the cars.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Since the VSC is there to maintain relative positions and so on, of course the pits must be closed. In this particular instance it was not a master stroke from Merc, it would have been idiotic not to pit. Likewise for FER, it was idiotic not to take the free pit stop. Because that is what VSC is, basically, a free pit stop. I don't think that was the original idea.

If someone needs to pit for repairs or something let them, but add an automatic drive through under green for those pitting under VSC

That may have been the negative to the VSC, maybe the ONLY one, but so what, a bit like a few races ago taking a pit stop while the pit straight was closed...

[Gretsch]

This thread needs a poll