41 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

Hello. There is lots of talk about financial inequality, and how this effects modern results.

 

I'd like to know how budgets compared among teams in the 60's & 70's.  Say for example, in 1968 how did the budget of Lotus compare to Brabham and Cooper?  How much did factory teams like Ferrari, Matra, Renault etc. spend compared to the privateers? Today Red Bull Racing probably spends at least 4 times more money than Force India, but I can't help but believe we have seen similar ratios between full-time professional grand prix teams since the beginning.

 

Does anyone know anything about past budgets, other than what a DFV and Hewland cost?

[GazChed]

The figure of £600,000 has stuck in my mind as to the cost of Tyrrell running a two car team in winning the 1973 World Drivers Championship . In 2016 the top four teams spent over £350 million !

[E1pix]

The price of insanity. Ridiculous.

[Pontlieue]

The figure of £600,000 has stuck in my mind as to the cost of Tyrrell running a two car team in winning the 1973 World Drivers Championship . In 2016 the top four teams spent over £350 million !

To be fair, that needs to be adjusted for inflation. But even when adjusted for inlation, Mercedes in 2016 spent over 50 times as much as Tyrrell in 1973. Of course, Formula 1 is a much larger business today, so the teams get more income as well. I think something in the range between 100 million to 150 million for the top teams would be a good cap to aim for.

Edited by Pontlieue, 20 May 2017 - 07:15.

[GazChed]

I understand that , back in 1973 the average U.K. salary was £2,080 , in 2016 it was £27,600 . At that rate a front running teams budget should be £7,800,000 !!

[GazChed]

In chapter 6 of 'Alf Francis Racing Mechanic 1948 - 1958' , Alf describes setting off for the 1950 racing season with £25 in cash , £100 in Travellers Cheques and twenty petrol . Unfortunately he doesn't say how much change he gave Alta owner John Heath after five months of travelling around Europe !
Seriously , by June Alf was forced to borrow money from the hotel manager where they were staying , until John Heath turned up for a race at Rheims on July 2nd . During the race Tony Hume suggested that if Alf could transport the three cars from Rheims to Bari , they would collect a £1,000 in starting money . This involved a trip of 1100 miles and after leaving Rheims at five o'clock Monday evening they arrived in Bari at lunchtime on Friday . They had completed this trip almost without a break and Alf then had to prepare the three cars for practise ! All three cars started and Stirling Moss gained a wonderful third place . Different days and a different world in many ways .

[Roger Clark]

Did the £600k quoted for Tyrell include Jackie Stewart's salary, and do the figures for today include all the PR and corporate hospitality?

I think the garagiste era was relatively low budget because Cosworth and Hewland provided a standard product without much development to pay for. Costs increased dramatically in the 1980s if you include the engine manufacturers- you can't consider Brabham's budget without including what BMW spent on development and the supply of free engines.

Back in the 1950s Daimler-Benz spent far more than their rivals. I think Uhlenhaut said that they didn't have a budget. They just spent what was necessary to get the job done. Ford must have spent similar amounts on their 60s Le Mans programme, and Porsche when Ferdinand Piëch was technical director.

[GazChed]

The world we live in in 2017 is a very different place to the one we lived in in 1973 . No Sky , no social media , no talentless celebrities famous only for having a big bum or big mouth . All of these have contributed to the massive incomes enjoyed by many sportsmen . In the seventies Division One footballers were on a salary of £15,000 a year . Some players are now on ten times that sum every week ! So would Jackie Stewart's salary have been that big a chunk of Tyrrell's budget ? I doubt it was much more a Division One footballer's salary , plus a share of Prize Money . Apologies for football and celebrity analogies , I was just using them for illustration purposes !

Edited by GazChed, 20 May 2017 - 12:48.

[Charlieman]

Cooper in the mid to late 1960s would be an interesting academic study. The company would have been able to earn supplier money from tyre, oil and petrol companies in the same way as Lotus and Brabham. Unlike Lotus and Brabham, Cooper lost most of its customers for F2 and F3 cars. The Cooper-Maserati deal was a clever one, given the absence of competitive engines when 3 litre F1 started, but Cooper still couldn't sell enough cars. And sadly Cooper went bust.

[Charlieman]

When considering costs in days past, we have to add in travel -- which has increased over the years. I recall tales that Ensign's F1 budget for a single car was £250,000 in 1973 and the same years later. However Ensign attended races thanks to the occasional racing post which qualified for constructors' association membership benefits. Although I do wonder whether free transport was a financial exchange for the ending of start money.

[Roger Clark]

The world we live in in 2017 is a very different place to the one we lived in in 1973 . No Sky , no social media , no talentless celebrities famous only for having a big bum or big mouth . All of these have contributed to the massive incomes enjoyed by many sportsmen . In the seventies Division One footballers were on a salary of £15,000 a year . Some players are now on ten times that sum every week ! So would Jackie Stewart's salary have been that big a chunk of Tyrrell's budget ? I doubt it was much more a Division One footballer's salary , plus a share of Prize Money . Apologues for football and celebrity analogies , I was just using them for illustration purposes !

Jackie Stewart signed with the Mark McCormack organisation in 1969. Autosport, 22 August, said: "McCormack already has Jackie's 1970 signing-up fee worked out - rumour has it that it stands at an incredible £110,000!"

He may not have got that much in 1970 but I'm sure he got more by 1973.

[Ray Bell]

I'm pretty sure I recall Alan Jones saying the 1980 Williams budget was $US39m...

Or was that the 1981 budget?

[GazChed]

The figure of £600,000 I quoted earlier could well have been what it cost Ken Tyrrell personally , remembering that he was sponsored by Elf in those days . However the fact that charlieman quotes a figure of £250,000 for one Ensign suggests the figure may not be too wide of the mark .
By 1980 , manufacturers Renault and Alfa Romeo had entered Grand Prix racing , raising the bar somewhat . A figure of us$39,000,000 could well be correct as Williams had attracted Saudi Arabian backing by that time . In horse racing , the Maktoum family invested massively changing the face of British racing forever by the end of the eighties .

Edited by GazChed, 20 May 2017 - 14:47.

[Nathan]

I'm pretty sure I recall Alan Jones saying the 1980 Williams budget was $US39m...

Or was that the 1981 budget?

 

Was it $3.9m?  I ask because in Doug Nye's 'History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-91', he states Williams 1986 budget, excluding engine costs, 'exceeded £7 million', or roughly $10m USD at the time.

Edited by Nathan, 20 May 2017 - 14:01.

[GazChed]

In 1980 the pound was worth roughly 2.3 US dollars. That makes 39 million US dollars worth £17,000,000 or 3.9 million US dollars worth £1,700,000 . The average wage had risen to £6,000 a year by 1980 , treble that in 1973 . Taking that as a guideline and my original figure of £600,000 for a two car Cosworth kit car team , a figure of around £1,700,000 could be more likely .

[Lee Nicolle]

Without stating the obvious there is way too much money these days. IF they had realistic budgets the cars would not change nearly as much. Where half the time they are baffling them selves with b/s anyway.

And Williams and Tyrell etc did still do things properly. Current cars cost a lot more to buildd, fine but the money saving rules cost far more!

But the cars no longer race, just drive fast and wait for a pitstop too pass.

Boring really. I have heard that in the last few weeks from too many people.

[Barry Boor]

In 1972 it was possible to build a car and race it in a Grand Prix for around £10,000.

[Michael Ferner]

In 1972 it was possible to build a car and race it in a Grand Prix for around £10,000.

Sure thing, and next you are going to tell us you helped build it...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 May 2017 - 19:30.

[Michael Ferner]

I'm pretty sure I recall Alan Jones saying the 1980 Williams budget was $US39m...

Or was that the 1981 budget?

Not in 1980, or '81 for that matter, I'm sure. May have been 3.9m USD, maybe 3.9m GBP?

[Ray Bell]

I'll check on this when I get home...

I know I was staggered by the thought of the figure when he told us.

[E1pix]

I find some of these quotes rather low.

 

A friend in 1975 spent USD $55,000 to race a club-level Formula Ford!

[PeterElleray]

Mo Nunn would have become best friends with your friend had he known that..

 

We've covered this before.

 

Go to this website:

 

https://beta.compani...history?page=10

 

You will find the full set of returns for Mercedes GP, going back to its origins as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation in 1964 and on page 10 Uncle ken has filed his budget summary for 1984 for all of us to pick through...

Edited by PeterElleray, 21 May 2017 - 10:10.

[Charlieman]

A friend in 1975 spent USD $55,000 to race a club-level Formula Ford!

I daresay that your friend included his personal travel and accommodation costs in that figure. If he'd included the opportunity costs -- the potential to earn more -- the number would be even scarier.

 

In the case of an F1 team, transport costs outside Europe would have been covered by constructors' association membership. Essential components such as brake pads, tyres, fuel, bearings, clutches would have been free in exchange for a sticker on the car. When Tyrrell employed JYS, his salary was paid by Ford (I don't recall who paid for travel but I doubt it was Ken or Jackie). For a team at the back of the grid, the idea of paying a driver anything more than a nominal signing fee would have been unimaginable.

[E1pix]

A bizarre, if not unfair, factor is the guys in the '70s risked everything while making nothing.

My, how things have changed.

[Lee Nicolle]

In 1972 it was possible to build a car and race it in a Grand Prix for around £10,000.

And build it in a lockup, then rebuild it in a garden shed!

How is it going BTW.

[Barry Boor]

Should be ready for the Festival of Speed but as a non-moving exhibit.

[GazChed]

Dipping back into 'Alf Francis Racing Mechanic' , Alf describes the family conference held in 1954 when it was decided to buy Stirling a Maserati 250F to further his career , and how they would raise the £5,500 needed . The average UK salary was about £500 so the Maserati was the equivalent of eleven times that salary .

Fast forward to 1972 and Barry Boor and his friends build the Connew for £10,000 . That year's average annual salary was about £1,800 , the Connew costing five and a half times the annual salary . In real terms the Connew cost half of a Maserati 250F , possibly due to the ready availability of Cosworth engines and Hewland gearboxes .

Does Barry remember what was paid for the engine and gearbox for the Connew ?

[Barry Boor]

Yes. The engine which was purchased from Phil Kerr at McLaren for £3250 but initially he accepted a £1000 deposit and Peter paid the balance months later. Whereupon Phil handed him £100 back for his honesty.

The gearbox, brand new from Hewland, cost £550 with another £200 for extra ratios.

In the end the engine was bought by Tom Wheatcroft for £2650 and it was bolted to the back of a McLaren in the museum.

Alain de Cadenet bought the gearbox and I believe it ran a couple of times in Alain's Le Mans car.

[GazChed]

Thank you for the great answer and insight Barry . So the running gear accounted for forty per cent of the cost of the Connew . I wonder how that compares to today's Formula One cars ?

[Charlieman]

Dipping back into 'Alf Francis Racing Mechanic' , Alf describes the family conference held in 1954 when it was decided to buy Stirling a Maserati 250F to further his career , and how they would raise the £5,500 needed . The average UK salary was about £500 so the Maserati was the equivalent of eleven times that salary .

I'm going to have to buy that book... At least four things occur to me about the £5,500 needed to buy the Maserati:

 

* I assume the price included purchase tax and duties, thus much less than Maserati received. Dodging the revenue people -- as Tony Vandervell and BRM experienced at the time -- was hard work and they knew how to "import" without importing.

* Stirling Moss would have been a valued customer, so Maserati would have offered a discount. On the other hand, they might have offered a discount to anyone...

* Front engined single seaters built to the quality of a 250F were more complex than the cars which immediately succeeded them. Every Maserati competing at a high level had to return to the factory for maintenance and bills. On the positive side, Maserati supported privateers attending big races.

* What was the salary of a pattern maker in Northern Italy versus England Midlands? Did Maserati have lower labour costs?

* The resale value of the Moss 250F was dependent on race results and maintenance by the factory.

* Maserati went bust building and racing cars. I'd love to know whether/how the business was viable. Perhaps a forensics accountant, fluent in Italian and with access to the period records, could inform us more!

[Charlieman]

Yes. The engine which was purchased from Phil Kerr at McLaren for £3250 but initially he accepted a £1000 deposit and Peter paid the balance months later. Whereupon Phil handed him £100 back for his honesty.

Ta for that, Barry.

 

Can you check the figures with Peter, please. For the £10,000, was that for the chassis? Or £14,000 whatever for the complete car, assuming that the engine and gearbox could be resold?

[GazChed]

Stirling may well have paid more in the end as not only was the car painted green and not red but he also insisted on having the throttle pedal on the right and the brake pedal in the middle . I cannot recommend Alf Francis' book highly enough , it gives a wonderful insight into the life (and privations!) of a racing mechanic in the fifties .

[E1pix]

I daresay that your friend included his personal travel and accommodation costs in that figure. If he'd included the opportunity costs -- the potential to earn more -- the number would be even scarier.

In the case of an F1 team, transport costs outside Europe would have been covered by constructors' association membership. Essential components such as brake pads, tyres, fuel, bearings, clutches would have been free in exchange for a sticker on the car. When Tyrrell employed JYS, his salary was paid by Ford (I don't recall who paid for travel but I doubt it was Ken or Jackie). For a team at the back of the grid, the idea of paying a driver anything more than a nominal signing fee would have been unimaginable.

Good points.

Yes, that $55K included everything. I admit to being shocked and more than a little impressed that Barry could build a car for way less than that price!

And yes Peter, I imagine Mo would have asked "Wanna drive a F1 car???" :-)

Edited by E1pix, 22 May 2017 - 14:14.

[Charlieman]

Stirling may well have paid more in the end as not only was the car painted green and not red but he also insisted on having the throttle pedal on the right and the brake pedal in the middle .

Moss asked for the pedals to be swapped when racing for Maserati and for Italian teams on several occasions. Sometimes, it was something that the mechanics could achieve. 

[GazChed]

The pedals were only swapped after a protracted and very heated discussion!

[Charlieman]

The pedals were only swapped after a protracted and very heated discussion!

But it was achievable.

[GazChed]

They achieved it alright but the Italians were still insisting their way was much safer . Surprisingly Senor Bertocchi was much more sympathetic towards Stirling having a more reclined seat fitted especially as this altered the design of the cockpit by having to move the crossmember .

[Charlieman]

Surprisingly Senor Bertocchi was much more sympathetic towards Stirling having a more reclined seat fitted especially as this altered the design of the cockpit by having to move the crossmember .

Moss could not afford to run Maserati. Neither could Bertocchi. They compromised. That is how life works.

[mariner]

:

https://beta.compani...history?page=10

You will find the full set of returns for Mercedes GP, going back to its origins as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation in 1964 and on page 10 Uncle ken has filed his budget summary for 1984 for all of us to pick through...

Thank you Peter, fantastic.

I am an accountant who has followed F1 since 1962 but I never knew of the legal trail from Ken Tyrrell to MB racing. I wonder waht he would make of their current bidget!

[Charlieman]

I am an accountant who has followed F1 since 1962 but I never knew of the legal trail from Ken Tyrrell to MB racing. I wonder waht he would make of their current bidget!

I presume that you know a bit of German...

[bradbury west]

Talking of the wonderful Connew, and Barry may contradict me here, but I suspect that all the figures were for materials, components and outside machining only, and did not include any cost of labour or overheads for property, PH&L, and that sort on on-costs? Still, it was a fantastic and glorious performance though.
Roger Lund

Edit
Usual disclaimers..... other than as a huge fan.

Edited by bradbury west, 22 May 2017 - 18:45.

[Barry Boor]

The figure did include the rent for the workshop and the wages that Peter paid to Roger Dorian and myself.

However, it must be remembered that a number of suppliers gave us various important items and components completely free. Simply because we were such nice young chaps. lol