Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Bastardisation of Monaco


  • Please log in to reply
206 replies to this topic

#1 Graveltrappen

Graveltrappen
  • Member

  • 1,261 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 27 May 2017 - 11:57

Touched on in the FP3 comms, but the building works taking place in Monaco are removing some of the charm of the place. Watching on the telly you'd hardly know it was by the sea, I don't think a single shot now shows you the water. Apparently there's even more land reclamation to take place and soon the track will be far away from the waters edge.

That along with some of the safety aspects introduced over recent years have removed a lot of the character.

Advertisement

#2 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 49,830 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 27 May 2017 - 11:59

Such is progress... Graham Hill was saying the same thing in 1972.



#3 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,567 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:02

Sea level is rising. It'll get wet again.

#4 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,803 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:03

Do people watch for the scenery?

#5 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 3,143 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:04

I can accept the scenery changing (I think it still looks great and can see huge amounts of sea on the coverage right now). I get annoyed with barriers constantly being pushed back, it's meant to be a challenge.

But at least the circuit is the same basic shape with the same corners. I read on here a plan to extend the circuit and add an 'overtaking spot'. It would be a real shame to lose the shape of this circuit, its a continual thread of history running through the sport. Changing it would be a real act of barbarism.

#6 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 6,773 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:05

edit - oops wrong topic :lol:


Edited by HoldenRT, 27 May 2017 - 12:10.


#7 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 3,143 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:05

Do people watch for the scenery?


A bit. It's part of the appeal for the whole weekend for me. I love watching cars go around Monaco in a way I didn't love watching them go around Valencia or Sochi.

#8 chunder27

chunder27
  • Member

  • 5,775 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:23

Let's be honest here, I think Monaco is one of the most densely populated places on earth and the desire to live there for rih people is greater than ever for the tax reasons.

 

So this was always likely.

 

Rich people can afford to keep their money here, while the rest of us pay for the services we all use. 

 

Great system huh.  Makes you sick.



#9 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 23,385 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:24

Touched on in the FP3 comms, but the building works taking place in Monaco are removing some of the charm of the place. Watching on the telly you'd hardly know it was by the sea, I don't think a single shot now shows you the water. Apparently there's even more land reclamation to take place and soon the track will be far away from the waters edge.

That along with some of the safety aspects introduced over recent years have removed a lot of the character.

It's not just Monaco, it's the whole Côte d'Azur region. It's been turned into concrete by developpers. It has nothing to do with what it was even in the 1980s.



#10 Kalmake

Kalmake
  • Member

  • 4,492 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 May 2017 - 13:39

Monaco_depuis_since_1861.png

 



#11 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 14,687 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 13:44

Sea level is rising. It'll get wet again.

 

Is it?



#12 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 27 May 2017 - 13:45

As a Dutchman I feel obliged to cheer on any land reclamation effort, though it does take away somewhat from the scenery at this Grand Prix.

 

Still, I only have to watch it an hour or two each year. I imagine the people who live their all year have to find some place to put all those others who want to join in on the tax dodging fun. Creating new land is a better option than fighting a war with their nuclear-armed neighbour to the north.



#13 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 14,687 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 13:47

Let's be honest here, I think Monaco is one of the most densely populated places on earth and the desire to live there for rih people is greater than ever for the tax reasons.

 

So this was always likely.

 

Rich people can afford to keep their money here, while the rest of us pay for the services we all use. 

 

Great system huh.  Makes you sick.

 

Rich pay more than the rest - believe it or not ... in most countries.... Which is actually a bigger problem for our democratic system than tax avoidance.

 

/Off topic. 



#14 balaclava

balaclava
  • Member

  • 355 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 27 May 2017 - 13:52

Went to Monaco once, and i found it quite gray and depressing. Asphalt and concrete all around. As microstates go, Andorra is my favorite for now. Having said that, I'm sure that the GP weekend is quite the show in those streets.

#15 Pascal

Pascal
  • Administrator Emeritus

  • 22,676 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:16

Monaco_depuis_since_1861.png


As this graphic shows, the changes around Port Hercule have been minimal over the years, and some have allowed the track to be less dangerous by enlarging the chicane at the end of the tunnel. The most drastic change to come will be with the new Portier land reclamation, meaning that upon arriving at the right hander leading to the tunnel entrance, cars will no longer be facing the sea.

#16 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,567 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:19

Is it?

 

It is.

Well, or the land is sinking. Either way, same effect.



#17 Jamelon

Jamelon
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:19

Rich pay more than the rest - believe it or not ... in most countries.... Which is actually a bigger problem for our democratic system than tax avoidance.

 

/Off topic. 

Paying more in absolute terms is no justification whatsoever to get any kind of "discount" in corporate tax rates. Tax havens are the biggest scam in human history, but greed is the main threat to society and will probably lead us to an early extinction.



#18 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 3,143 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:34

Paying more in absolute terms is no justification whatsoever to get any kind of "discount" in corporate tax rates. Tax havens are the biggest scam in human history, but greed is the main threat to society and will probably lead us to an early extinction.


A species that has existed for 200,000 years (and has used currency for only 5 or 10 thousand years) is going to be wiped out because of tax havens?

Crikey.

#19 taz

taz
  • Member

  • 500 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:34



Advertisement

#20 Vielleicht

Vielleicht
  • Member

  • 5,961 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:42

I've felt the exit of the tunnel hasn't been the same since they built the new Yacht Club de Monaco building on the waterfront. I'm sure someone felt the same when they first used the swimming pool chicanes. As much as I love lookign back nostalgically, it's progress. Monaco will still be Monaco.



#21 maximilian

maximilian
  • Member

  • 7,805 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 14:56

Do people watch for the scenery?

 

Certainly not watching for the good racing! :p



#22 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,344 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 27 May 2017 - 15:10

Monaco_depuis_since_1861.png

 

Perhaps the congenital moron who designed that map using colours almost entirely from the red end of the spectrum can explain which bits are 1960 and which bits are 1965.

 



#23 superden

superden
  • Member

  • 4,185 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 15:18

Perhaps the congenital moron who designed that map using colours almost entirely from the red end of the spectrum can explain which bits are 1960 and which bits are 1965.


:lol:

Glad it's not just me.

#24 NateF

NateF
  • Member

  • 3,668 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 15:43

1960 - Port Hercule orange bits and 1965 Monte Carlo Sporting Club and pre 2015 Le Portier extension, I think,

#25 PiperPa42

PiperPa42
  • Member

  • 6,041 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 27 May 2017 - 15:45

It is a city, not a racetrack. Singapore 2017 doesn't look like Singapore 1965 either.

#26 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,315 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:01

Monaco has done well to retain its circuit layout with only one major reroute over the years, when the swimming pool section was added. The rest have just been small adjustments, usually for safety. The barriers have hardly been moved back in recent years. Only at the chicane and swimming pool exit.

Compare to Long Beach, which has gone through multiple layouts.

#27 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 14,687 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:04

It is.

Well, or the land is sinking. Either way, same effect.

 

I vote for the land is sinking  ;) 

 

Or we can admit that we are basing all this using the same quality of models as Merc are using to set up their cars in 2017 ..... either way Monaco is safe :p

 

/OT



#28 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 14,507 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:15

Sea level is rising. It'll get wet again.

 

Yeah, the Donald will soon have those waves lapping round the garages.



#29 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 7,292 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:16

As this graphic shows, the changes around Port Hercule have been minimal over the years, and some have allowed the track to be less dangerous by enlarging the chicane at the end of the tunnel. The most drastic change to come will be with the new Portier land reclamation, meaning that upon arriving at the right hander leading to the tunnel entrance, cars will no longer be facing the sea.

 

That has already happened, they already have hoardings up by the tunnel entrance hiding all the construction work.



#30 taz

taz
  • Member

  • 500 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:24

The barriers have been moved back on a lot of places (pictures from 1996 race):

 

entry St Devote

 

t9PZ1KI.jpg

 

Swimming pool entry:

 

qAyHOR5.jpg

 

Swimming pool exit:

 

rqrew1V.jpg

 

Rascasse entry:

 

qmh7HUu.jpg



#31 superden

superden
  • Member

  • 4,185 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:26

What's another three concrete tower blocks amongst friends/tax exiles? These poor, victimised workers need these bolt holes to funnel their cash into. What's wrong with you people, are you saying they should pay their taxes?!

It is an 'eco-district' after all.

Back OT, as above it's the persistent moving back of the barriers at Monaco that has sanitised the challenge, especially at St Devote and the exit of the swimming pool complex.

Edited by superden, 27 May 2017 - 16:40.


#32 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,315 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:27

I forgot about St Devote, which was more about making the pit exit safer. They haven't moved the barriers at Rascasse. The road is in a different place, but the barriers are still immediately at the track edge.

#33 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 10,082 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:31

Yeah, the Donald will soon have those waves lapping round the garages.

 

I think China is probably more culpable...



#34 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 7,292 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:46

The barriers have been moved back on a lot of places (pictures from 1996 race):

 

entry St Devote

 

t9PZ1KI.jpg

 

 

Look at those pampered wimps and their crash barriers.

 

This is how real men race:

 

tumblr_mg02i8YhHJ1qapwfro1_1280.jpg

 

Joking aside anyone complaining about things changing at Monaco just hasn't looked at the history of the track and seen that every corner around the track has changed at some point, even the hairpin has had its curb flattened out and sanitised.



#35 Jamelon

Jamelon
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 27 May 2017 - 16:49

A species that has existed for 200,000 years (and has used currency for only 5 or 10 thousand years) is going to be wiped out because of tax havens?

Crikey.

Says someone who drives looking only at the rearviewmirror...



#36 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 3,717 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 27 May 2017 - 17:08

I don't have an opinion on the land reclamation stuff but the moving back of barriers and reprofiling of corners is super annoying. Rascasse and the corner before it are totally different and much simpler now.

#37 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 10,082 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 17:08

They destroyed the track when they got rid of the Gasworks hairpin...



#38 midgrid

midgrid
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,236 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 17:18

I forgot about St Devote, which was more about making the pit exit safer. They haven't moved the barriers at Rascasse. The road is in a different place, but the barriers are still immediately at the track edge.

 

The entry to Rascasse was straightened in 2003, however.



#39 DinocoBlue

DinocoBlue
  • Member

  • 915 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 17:27

edit. nevermind


Edited by DinocoBlue, 27 May 2017 - 17:28.


Advertisement

#40 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,315 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 17:28

The entry to Rascasse was straightened in 2003, however.


Because they expanded the promenade above where the pit lane goes.

#41 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 6,378 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:04

As this graphic shows, the changes around Port Hercule have been minimal over the years, and some have allowed the track to be less dangerous by enlarging the chicane at the end of the tunnel. The most drastic change to come will be with the new Portier land reclamation, meaning that upon arriving at the right hander leading to the tunnel entrance, cars will no longer be facing the sea.

Is that why the new blue-painted wall has appeared on the exit this year?  I always enjoyed the old days when the sea was visible even on the relatively low-angle footage; it somehow increased the sense of place, which I find very important in my enjoyment of a circuit, especially if overtaking is difficult.



#42 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 7,292 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:12

They're building this:

ConferenceExtensionMonaco23052016.jpg

 

The view out to sea is going to be blocked by the big block of highrise on the end.


Edited by johnmhinds, 27 May 2017 - 19:10.


#43 superden

superden
  • Member

  • 4,185 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:29

I bet the people behind that grim development, who are losing their sea view, are overjoyed at the prospect of being able to see the back walls of the even richer people now looking out to sea over their morning coffee and muesli.

#44 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 14,507 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:34

I bet the people behind that grim development, who are losing their sea view, are overjoyed at the prospect of being able to see the back walls of the even richer people now looking out to sea over their morning coffee and muesli.

 

I was thinking exactly that. Surely there must've been some rich peeps calling their lawyers?



#45 PiperPa42

PiperPa42
  • Member

  • 6,041 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:38

I was thinking exactly that. Surely there must've been some rich peeps calling their lawyers?


Surely there has been planning done by the city with options for members of the public to comment on the plan. I don't know how it works in Monaco, but in my country you buy an apartment, you don't buy the right to a certain view. Estate agents might sell a view, but the buyer does not have a right to it. And Monaco is hardly the only place where buildings are being built that will obscure the view from other buildings, it happens all over.

Edit

Doesn't stop people from complaining though.

Edited by PiperPa42, 27 May 2017 - 18:39.


#46 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 14,507 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:45

Surely there has been planning done by the city with options for members of the public to comment on the plan. I don't know how it works in Monaco, but in my country you buy an apartment, you don't buy the right to a certain view. Estate agents might sell a view, but the buyer does not have a right to it. And Monaco is hardly the only place where buildings are being built that will obscure the view from other buildings, it happens all over.

Edit

Doesn't stop people from complaining though.

 

True enough, but I'd be surprised if they all took it lying down. Some very rich people would have seen both prestige and property value receive a dent when their view of the iconic harbour disappeared.



#47 Radoye

Radoye
  • Member

  • 3,259 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 27 May 2017 - 18:58

I'm pretty sure the very rich people don't actually live in Monaco, they just own an address there so they can claim residence for taxation purposes but spend their time elsewhere. For all that matters, their address might have not much more than a janitor's closet at the site. And if they really want a Monaco waterfront property, they'll just buy one in the new development, and pass their old one onto someone slightly less fabulously rich. It's not like they can't afford it.



#48 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,344 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 27 May 2017 - 21:06

Under English law you don't have a right to a view.  There are complex things about easements so nobody can block light through a window that's been there for 20 years, and right now someone's suing Tate Modern because you can peek-a-boo into their flats from the new top floor walkway but I doubt they'll get very far.  French/Monegasque law might have analogous provisions.



#49 BalanceUT

BalanceUT
  • Member

  • 2,316 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 27 May 2017 - 21:41

I didn't know that I was supposed to hate Monte Carlo for these reasons... I guess I'll just go turn off my TV right now. 

:rotfl:



#50 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 10,082 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2017 - 21:43

They're building this:

ConferenceExtensionMonaco23052016.jpg

 

The view out to sea is going to be blocked by the big block of highrise on the end.

 

But those apartments are going to have a great view of Portier corner itself... more viewing spots for the slightly less rich (only very slightly) who rent apartments from the much richer over the GP weekend