3452 replies to this topic

[Risil]

New thread, new start...

[brokeracer]

The writing is on the wall for Kimi, he just doesn't have the pace to be competitive right now and its undeniable he is being placed in a Massa-esq role within the team. 

[Mally11]

Today confirmed Raikkonen as a number two. This thread is pretty much irrelevant when we all know how Ferrari want things to go. The team got the result "they" wanted.

Or change the title to Kimi Raikkonen v Sebastian Vettel/Ferrari. I'm not going to support a team who act disgracefully towards their driver when he got pole and after the race today. Their attitude yesterday had my suspicions, today just confirmed that.

[WelshSwan]

Right then folks, now I have had time to calm down and not be reactionary as I was earlier. I am still sad to see Kimi as he was after the race, I know today was a huge day for Ferrari and a great result for the team overall but I just wanted someone to transport him out of there and back home to Minttu and his two children as it was all about Seb and it felt like no one particularly cared about Kimi. Granted, he looked like he was going to punch someone so perhaps they stayed away from him but yeah, it sucked as a Kimi fan to see him like that. 

 

Now with regards to how he feels and whether he feels he was screwed over, I don't know. He could have reacted as he did because he feels he was let down or it could be down to the fact that he really felt like this was going to be his weekend, in qualifying he looked much better and seemed to be more at ease with the car and then bam, Vettel pulls out lap after lap of some amazing times and ends up coming out ahead. Very quickly Seb got away and the gap got up to what, 11 seconds at one point? Granted, we don't know whether Kimi was really pushing or whether he just coasted around because he knew that the race was over and he just thought he'd take it easy, I hope he was taking it easy because his times in comparison to Seb were pretty poor in all honesty. I was fully expecting Ricciardo to pass him after the SC but he managed to pull away so I don't think he was trying too hard once he knew Seb was in front. It COULD be that Kimi looked as he did because he just doesn't know what to do or what he can do to improve and after today I think even he knows at this point that he is the number two driver and for him to get a win this season is going to be very difficult.

 

Seb was superb, I can't say anything different because he was. It;s going to be another long and painful season for us Kimi fans I fear but I will tune in because as long as he continues in F1 he has my support. 

[seb5vet]

I challenge any one who thinks Ferrari helped Vettel to answer those questions : 

1- Do you think that Redbull helped Ricciardo over Max ? why? 

2- Do you think that Mercedes helped Ricciardo over their own driver by choosing the undercut?

 

THE FACT is all big teams chose the undercut for their front runners .. but for some reason some people think about conspiracy only about Ferrari

[RPM40]

 

I challenge any one who thinks Ferrari helped Vettel to answer those questions : 

1- Do you think that Redbull helped Ricciardo over Max ? why? 

2- Do you think that Mercedes helped Ricciardo over their own driver by choosing the undercut?

 

THE FACT is all big teams chose the undercut for their front runners .. but for some reason some people think about conspiracy only about Ferrari

 

 

Ultimately the pit calls was made based on driver feedback, Kimi looked like his pace was starting to suffer and Vettel was consistently faster, I think the undercut was the only strategy that actually would have allowed him to win. 

 

I didn't hear the Red Bull drivers feedback on their tyres, but as the Ferrari fight I assume that would have played a major role.

I saw no conspiracy for Raikkonen today. I actually thought the team might fix him and hand Vettel the win, but all I saw was the faster driver gaining track position.  Had they left Raikkonen out and gave Vettel the undercut, he would have passed him that way.

[xtremeclock]

The writing is on the wall for Kimi, he just doesn't have the pace to be competitive right now and its undeniable he is being placed in a Massa-esq role within the team. 

 

He was given every possibility to win today, it was on his hands to set the race pace and build a healthy gap, but he couldn't, in the other hand Vettel did everything right, he was patient enough to stay just behind Kimi and when he found himself on free air he unleashed four remarkable quick laps on used US, he was even faster than Kimi on new SS.

 

ps: It's amazing how Kimi fans and Hamilton fans camouflaged as Kimi fans think the finn was entitled to win this race.

 

If the overcut worked for Vettel = team orders.

 

Had Ferrari allowed Vettel to pit first for the undercut = team orders.

 

No matter what, Kimi had to win today, wrong, the best driver won and he proved it with his amazing pace. 

Edited by xtremeclock, 28 May 2017 - 23:20.

[josepatches]

So some people wanted team orders to give a driver no chance at all to fight for the win.....

And they ended mad because they feel Ferrari did those team orders but to help the driver you wanted to be screwed. Crazy

Ferrari had to slow Vettel because kimi wasnt faster....crazy

[WelshSwan]

Well if us Kimi fans look on the positive side, the last few years in Monaco have been pretty crap for Kimi so a 2nd place is a massive improvement at least! Whilst some are angry at Ferrari, I think a lot of us are just disappointed because him getting pole and looking so much more confident in the car gave us hope that this could be the race for him to win and it wasn't. 

[FunBobby]

Today confirmed Raikkonen as a number two. This thread is pretty much irrelevant when we all know how Ferrari want things to go. The team got the result "they" wanted.

Or change the title to Kimi Raikkonen v Sebastian Vettel/Ferrari. I'm not going to support a team who act disgracefully towards their driver when he got pole and after the race today. Their attitude yesterday had my suspicions, today just confirmed that.

Sadly that's true. Arrivabene was extremly desperate yesterday despite the the Ferrari front row. That shows the current rotten state of the Ferrari.

Unforunatelly i Don't see any chance for a Kimi win whatever happen with Vettel. They simpli don't make any attention to him (last year Singapur showed it very well).

From this point i also  don't see what should motivate Kimi if he don't have the chance to race for te 1st place and i don't want to see him being humilated any more so the best scenario is to retire asap (even in the middle of the year)and let the 2nd driver role for a  younger driver with samller supporter base which will be good for the hardcore Ferrai fans as well who can't handle the critisism.

Edited by FunBobby, 28 May 2017 - 23:38.

[Ricardo F1]

I challenge any one who thinks Ferrari helped Vettel to answer those questions :

1- Do you think that Redbull helped Ricciardo over Max ? why?
2- Do you think that Mercedes helped Ricciardo over their own driver by choosing the undercut?

THE FACT is all big teams chose the undercut for their front runners .. but for some reason some people think about conspiracy only about Ferrari

why are you bringing up irrelevant issues? Red Bull pitted MV to try and jump Bottas. It failed. They left Ric out because that was the sensible thing to do. Why Ferrari pitted Kimi ; well Kimi nor anyone else quite know.

[warp]

After this, I think Kimi is leaving Ferrari. He either put up with this (as long as Seb is the monster he is now) or leave for greener pastures.

 

The writing on the wall has been always been there, or you arrive Nr.1 to Ferrari or you'd better like to play second fiddle.

 

Tough luck for Kimi to be paired with two of the most talented drivers ever.

[BlackGold]

well Kimi nor anyone else quite know.

Thats not quite correct. There are lot of people who understand the strategy move to react to Bottas undercut. You just don't accept that obvious reason.

[spacekid]

Poor Kimi. Great performance in quali but just didn't have the pace to gap Seb or beat the overcut.

Thought Seb was excellent on the used US before his first stop, he just kept going faster and faster.

[redreni]

The stops were always going to happen when the teams reckoned the tyres had degraded to the point where fresh supers would be quicker (provided of course you can stop come out in a gap where you can do your pace on the new tyres). That point can arrive at a different stage of the race for different drivers depending on how much deg they have.

 

The teams would have done projections of what the pace on fresh supers would be on any given lap, bearing in mind track evolution and fuel effect. For a driver in clear air, as soon as the driver's actual times on the worn ultras went above the projected time for supers on the same lap, the team would have to consider pitting him.  There are other factors in play too, of course, but the question of whether you could be going quicker on another tyre is bound to be considered relevant because if you have the opportunity to go quicker and don't take it, others might.

 

By lap 34 Kimi was doing 1:17s and was called in, whereas when Seb was released he was doing 1.16s and high 1.15s and was left out. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out Kimi was probably going slower than the projected times for supers whereas Seb wasn't. It's worth noting Seb was also considerably quicker than 1:17 after his stop, meaning he would have made ground at the stops regardless if he was called in earlier or later than Kimi.

 

All of which is a long way of saying Kimi would have had a better chance of winning if he'd looked after his ultras a bit better.

Edited by redreni, 28 May 2017 - 23:50.

[grunge]

one last ditch attempt at trying to make some people understand how the alternate strategy wouldnt have worked for Vettel.

 

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

what made it happen?

• first and foremost the time he gained after kimi stopped by putting in those fast laps
• time lost by Kimi after coming out behind But and Wer (1 sec ..KRs 19.5 outlap compared to Vettels 18.5)
• 1 sec lost in the pitlane.

 

 What couldve happened

 

Had Vettel pitted first on lap 34, he wouldve lost the chance to put in those fast laps in clear air on his used tires. Advantage done

Kimi wouldnot have stayed out 4 laps, his tires were apparently done, He wouldve been called in the very next lap after doing another 17.0 which he did on his previous lap.

Seb now wouldve had to handle But and Wer on his outlap, so that one second he gained over KR is gone too

 

The Result

 

had ferrari given Vettel the undercut strategy instead of KR, he wouldnt have made all that time on kimi by getting the overcut one.

 

 Simply put the result wouldve been what we were accustomed to seeing at Mercedes last two seasons. the driver leading gets the preferential pit strategy.

 

 

The Bottas/Max angle

 

completely irrelevent had ferrari gone with the above mentioned strategy...Kimi had 5.4 secs on Bottas when the latter made his pitstop. he got out right into traffic. his next five laps were 19.4, 17.7, 17.1,18.9,18.0.......There is no way he was going to pose any threat to kimi if the Finn stopped one lap after Seb, on lap 35. 

 

 

So had ferrari gone with the more conventional pitting both drivers on consecutive laps plan, no additional dangers wouldve been presented and the end result wouldve been the same.. a team 1-2....only problem was the order according to them wasnt quite right..Just because Vettel was quicker on those 5 laps , he was handed the win while the guy that got pole on saturday, nailed the race start and lead till then was given the short draw

[ForzaFormula]

one last ditch attempt at trying to make some people understand how the alternate strategy wouldnt have worked for Vettel.

 

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

what made it happen?

• first and foremost the time he gained after kimi stopped by putting in those fast laps
• time lost by Kimi after coming out behind But and Wer (1 sec ..KRs 19.5 outlap compared to Vettels 18.5)
• 1 sec lost in the pitlane.

 

 What couldve happened

 

Had Vettel pitted first on lap 34, he wouldve lost the chance to put in those fast laps in clear air on his used tires. Advantage done

Kimi wouldnot have stayed out 4 laps, his tires were apparently done, He wouldve been called in the very next lap after doing another 17.0 which he did on his previous lap.

Seb now wouldve had to handle But and Wer on his outlap, so that one second he gained over KR is gone too

 

The Result

 

had ferrari given Vettel the undercut strategy instead of KR, he wouldnt have made all that time on kimi by getting the overcut one.

 

 Simply put the result wouldve been what we were accustomed to seeing at Mercedes last two seasons. the driver leading gets the preferential pit strategy.

 

 

The Bottas/Max angle

 

completely irrelevent had ferrari gone with the above mentioned strategy...Kimi had 5.4 secs on Bottas when the latter made his pitstop. he got out right into traffic. his next five laps were 19.4, 17.7, 17.1,18.9,18.0.......There is no way he was going to pose any threat to kimi if the Finn stopped one lap after Seb, on lap 35. 

 

 

So had ferrari gone with the more conventional pitting both drivers on consecutive laps plan, no additional dangers wouldve been presented and the end result wouldve been the same.. a team 1-2....only problem was the order according to them wasnt quite right..Just because Vettel was quicker on those 5 laps , he was handed the win while the guy that got pole on saturday, nailed the race start and lead till then was given the short draw

 

Spot on.

[sourav1480]

one last ditch attempt at trying to make some people understand how the alternate strategy wouldnt have worked for Vettel.

 

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

what made it happen?

• first and foremost the time he gained after kimi stopped by putting in those fast laps
• time lost by Kimi after coming out behind But and Wer (1 sec ..KRs 19.5 outlap compared to Vettels 18.5)
• 1 sec lost in the pitlane.

 

 What couldve happened

 

Had Vettel pitted first on lap 34, he wouldve lost the chance to put in those fast laps in clear air on his used tires. Advantage done

Kimi wouldnot have stayed out 4 laps, his tires were apparently done, He wouldve been called in the very next lap after doing another 17.0 which he did on his previous lap.

Seb now wouldve had to handle But and Wer on his outlap, so that one second he gained over KR is gone too

 

The Result

 

had ferrari given Vettel the undercut strategy instead of KR, he wouldnt have made all that time on kimi by getting the overcut one.

 

 Simply put the result wouldve been what we were accustomed to seeing at Mercedes last two seasons. the driver leading gets the preferential pit strategy.

 

 

The Bottas/Max angle

 

completely irrelevent had ferrari gone with the above mentioned strategy...Kimi had 5.4 secs on Bottas when the latter made his pitstop. he got out right into traffic. his next five laps were 19.4, 17.7, 17.1,18.9,18.0.......There is no way he was going to pose any threat to kimi if the Finn stopped one lap after Seb, on lap 35. 

 

 

So had ferrari gone with the more conventional pitting both drivers on consecutive laps plan, no additional dangers wouldve been presented and the end result wouldve been the same.. a team 1-2....only problem was the order according to them wasnt quite right..Just because Vettel was quicker on those 5 laps , he was handed the win while the guy that got pole on saturday, nailed the race start and lead till then was given the short draw

 

But whenever Mercs found that the lead driver was holding the driver behind, they either gave a warning to him or asked him to move over.

 

Cmon kimi was doing 1.17s, same as Sainz before he pit. He had 34 laps to drive fast and disappear away from Vettel 

[BlackGold]

one last ditch attempt at trying to make some people understand how the alternate strategy wouldnt have worked for Vettel.

 

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

what made it happen?

• first and foremost the time he gained after kimi stopped by putting in those fast laps
• time lost by Kimi after coming out behind But and Wer (1 sec ..KRs 19.5 outlap compared to Vettels 18.5)
• 1 sec lost in the pitlane.

 

 What couldve happened

 

Had Vettel pitted first on lap 34, he wouldve lost the chance to put in those fast laps in clear air on his used tires. Advantage done

Kimi wouldnot have stayed out 4 laps, his tires were apparently done, He wouldve been called in the very next lap after doing another 17.0 which he did on his previous lap.

Seb now wouldve had to handle But and Wer on his outlap, so that one second he gained over KR is gone too

 

The Result

 

had ferrari given Vettel the undercut strategy instead of KR, he wouldnt have made all that time on kimi by getting the overcut one.

 

 Simply put the result wouldve been what we were accustomed to seeing at Mercedes last two seasons. the driver leading gets the preferential pit strategy.

 

 

The Bottas/Max angle

 

completely irrelevent had ferrari gone with the above mentioned strategy...Kimi had 5.4 secs on Bottas when the latter made his pitstop. he got out right into traffic. his next five laps were 19.4, 17.7, 17.1,18.9,18.0.......There is no way he was going to pose any threat to kimi if the Finn stopped one lap after Seb, on lap 35. 

 

 

So had ferrari gone with the more conventional pitting both drivers on consecutive laps plan, no additional dangers wouldve been presented and the end result wouldve been the same.. a team 1-2....only problem was the order according to them wasnt quite right..Just because Vettel was quicker on those 5 laps , he was handed the win while the guy that got pole on saturday, nailed the race start and lead till then was given the short draw

It doesn't get more sense in it, as more often u repeat it.

 

You are using only speculation to prove a point that u made up in your mind.

 

As for your "Bottas was not threat" argument. Ferrari hadn't data u have after watching the race   

Edited by BlackGold, 29 May 2017 - 00:02.

[spacekid]

Kimi went faster after his stop.

Seb was faster than Kimi both before and after his stop.

Whatever order they pitted in, Seb would have been faster.

[Bristo]

It was sad that Räikkönen is considered a clear 2nd and the win he could've snatched from him for the 1st driver. I don't like this approach. Leaving the historical and dream team, what hope that the new drivers that will be considered once they are in Ferrari.

I really wish Mercedes to up their game and Ferrari engine becomes more unreliable.

[redreni]

one last ditch attempt at trying to make some people understand how the alternate strategy wouldnt have worked for Vettel.

 

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

what made it happen?

• first and foremost the time he gained after kimi stopped by putting in those fast laps
• time lost by Kimi after coming out behind But and Wer (1 sec ..KRs 19.5 outlap compared to Vettels 18.5)
• 1 sec lost in the pitlane.

 

 What couldve happened

 

Had Vettel pitted first on lap 34, he wouldve lost the chance to put in those fast laps in clear air on his used tires. Advantage done

Kimi wouldnot have stayed out 4 laps, his tires were apparently done, He wouldve been called in the very next lap after doing another 17.0 which he did on his previous lap.

Seb now wouldve had to handle But and Wer on his outlap, so that one second he gained over KR is gone too

 

The Result

 

had ferrari given Vettel the undercut strategy instead of KR, he wouldnt have made all that time on kimi by getting the overcut one.

 

 Simply put the result wouldve been what we were accustomed to seeing at Mercedes last two seasons. the driver leading gets the preferential pit strategy.

 

 

The Bottas/Max angle

 

completely irrelevent had ferrari gone with the above mentioned strategy...Kimi had 5.4 secs on Bottas when the latter made his pitstop. he got out right into traffic. his next five laps were 19.4, 17.7, 17.1,18.9,18.0.......There is no way he was going to pose any threat to kimi if the Finn stopped one lap after Seb, on lap 35. 

 

 

So had ferrari gone with the more conventional pitting both drivers on consecutive laps plan, no additional dangers wouldve been presented and the end result wouldve been the same.. a team 1-2....only problem was the order according to them wasnt quite right..Just because Vettel was quicker on those 5 laps , he was handed the win while the guy that got pole on saturday, nailed the race start and lead till then was given the short draw

 

I agree with this except all the data concerning events that happened after Ferrari decided to call Kimi into the pits have to be discounted, if we're being at all fair about this, unless they were predictable by the team in advance.

 

Pitting earlier is normally an advantage. Kimi was quicker after his stop than before and it's logical to assume the team predicted this or they wouldn't have called him in given he was still going faster than those who had stopped behind him.

 

As far as the team knew, the same would be true for Seb and so pitting later wouldn't be an advantage and he would have wanted to come in one lap after Kimi. It was only when Seb was released from behind Kimi and started going much faster that they knew otherwise. There's no law that says they have to pit the WDC leader if he's setting purple sectors, just to be fair to a driver who was much slower on the same tyre the lap before.

 

There's simply no evidence that Ferrari or any other team knew on lap 34 that the preferential strategy was to stop second, so even though I agree Seb would have struggled to pass Kimi with a 1-lap undercut, I don't agree with the suggestion that it would have been the natural decision, even had it been a non-championship race, for the team to pit Kimi the lap after Seb. It wasmore natural to do what the did and pit Kimi first, given how slow he was, and then either bring Seb in or leave him out depending on his pace.

 

I should add that of course the team had every incentive in WDC terms to want to engineer a switch between the two cars. I would have been displeased if the cars had been allowed to finish in the wrong order. I just happen to think that blaming everyone except Kimi for the fact he didn't look after his ultras very well and was slow around the stops is wrong-headed.

[BlackGold]

It was sad that Räikkönen is considered a clear 2nd and the win he could've snatched from him for the 1st driver. I don't like this approach. Leaving the historical and dream team, what hope that the new drivers that will be considered once they are in Ferrari.

I really wish Mercedes to up their game and Ferrari engine becomes more unreliable.

Sound legit to cheer now for the team, which used TO at least 3 time this season

[spacekid]

It was sad that Räikkönen is considered a clear 2nd and the win he could've snatched from him for the 1st driver. I don't like this approach. Leaving the historical and dream team, what hope that the new drivers that will be considered once they are in Ferrari.

I really wish Mercedes to up their game and Ferrari engine becomes more unreliable.

What were Ferrari meant to do? Order Seb to slow down so he wouldn't come out ahead of Kimi?

[grunge]

It doesn't get more sense in it, as more often u repeat it.

 

You are using only speculation to prove a point that u made up in your mind.

 

As for your "Bottas was not threat" argument. Ferrari hadn't data u have after watching the race 

im not trying to argue anything with you..you have no answers to any arguments and simply retort to ''but this is speculation''......problem is whatever it is you are using to prove that Vettel couldve made the undercut work cant even be described as speculation... its just random comments written to accuse the poster of speculation while coming up with absolutely nothing of your own.

 

 exact same case with your ''ferrari didnt have hindsight'' comment on the bottas issue..if you had bothered to read clearly, you wouldve read that i wrote ''had kimi come in on the next lap''...Even if all the pitwall at that time suffered from some form of amaurosis fugax and not seen the train of traffic Bottas was heading into, there was no way in any alternate universe for Bottas to make up 5 secs in one lap,even in the cleanest, most purifying of air cuz Kimi wouldve been in the very next lap to Vettel.

[HeadFirst]

He was given every possibility to win today, it was on his hands to set the race pace and build a healthy gap, but he couldn't, in the other hand Vettel did everything right, he was patient enough to stay just behind Kimi and when he found himself on free air he unleashed four remarkable quick laps on used US, he was even faster than Kimi on new SS.

 

ps: It's amazing how Kimi fans and Hamilton fans camouflaged as Kimi fans think the finn was entitled to win this race.

 

If the overcut worked for Vettel = team orders.

 

Had Ferrari allowed Vettel to pit first for the undercut = team orders.

 

No matter what, Kimi had to win today, wrong, the best driver won and he proved it with his amazing pace. 

 

That ^. Vettel was given a chance to win, and he delivered. Kimi had a great weekend, but in the end a 4x WDC won out. No shame in that.

[BlackGold]

im not trying to argue anything with you..you have no answers to any arguments and simply retort to ''but this is speculation''......problem is whatever it is you are using to prove that Vettel couldve made the undercut work cant even be described as speculation... its just random comments written to accuse the poster of speculation while coming up with absolutely nothing of your own.

 

 exact same case with your ''ferrari didnt have hindsight'' comment on the bottas issue..if you had bothered to read clearly, you wouldve read that i wrote ''had kimi come in on the next lap''...Even if all the pitwall at that time suffered from some form of amaurosis fugax and not seen the train of traffic Bottas was heading into, there was no way in any alternate universe for Bottas to make up 5 secs in one lap,even in the cleanest, most purifying of air cuz Kimi wouldve been in the very next lap to Vettel.

If you would read all the comments you will find a whole bunch of arguments at had written down. Its just u guys want not to hear it because its makes all your conspiracy theory blow in the dust.

 

I mean, how u want to know, that Seb hadn't been able to make a possible undercut work to his favour? There is clearly not one real argument that prove anything u said. Facts are, that Kimi couldn't nearly do 16s anymore at the time he pitted. You are speculating, that he would have been able to do mid 16s as the time Seb would have pitted, right^^ Also u just claim that Seb would have been able to go faster after his stop because I would run in traffic - but u don't know who he would have managed the traffic. Its all speculation.

 

You haven't delivered just one argument that proves you could be right with it.

[xtremeclock]

 

As it happened

 

Kimi pitted at lap 34, the lead to Vettel at that time being 1.1 sec. kimi spent 24.8 secs in the pitlane

Vettel meanwhile started putting down some hot laps .the next 5 were 16.5, 16.4, 16.2, 15.5, 15.2

Vettel now pits and spends 23,8 secs in the pit lane.his outlap is 18.5

Kimi after getting out of the pits put in 19.5, 16.1, 16.1 15.6, 15.5

 

so Vettel rejoins track less than a second ahead of Kimi.

 

 

 

Nice try there but you're wrong (a mistake?), actually, you deducted half a second from Vettel's pit time just to make your theory work. 

 

Kimi spent 24.833s in the pit

Vettel spent 24.306s in the pit

 

Edited by xtremeclock, 29 May 2017 - 01:00.

[TheFlyingFinn]

Lol at people still defending Ferrari for their calls on strategy that always favor the #5. It's been happening for years and couldn't get more apparent than this. Kimi's been in F1 for quite a while and it should be pretty easy to spot when he's biting his tongue. He wont directly blame Ferrari, he doesn't do that. But that behavior on podium and in interviews was pretty clear. 

Vilander also reported Greenwood was quite upset after the race..

[Ricardo F1]

That ^. Vettel was given a chance to win, and he delivered. Kimi had a great weekend, but in the end a 4x WDC won out. No shame in that.

He was and he did.  That's not the question, the question is why.

[seb5vet]

why are you bringing up irrelevant issues? Red Bull pitted MV to try and jump Bottas. It failed. They left Ric out because that was the sensible thing to do. Why Ferrari pitted Kimi ; well Kimi nor anyone else quite know.

 

didn't Red Bull know that the undercut was slower ? why try a slower strategy ?

and why Mercedes responded to that ? didn't they know that the undercut won't work ?

 

It is obvious that they thought that the undercut would work at that time . and so did Ferrari

 

in fact Vettel and Ricciardo was way faster than their team mates .. and that is why they were able to extract more from old ultrasoft what their team mates done on new supersoft

[Larunss]

Fortunately I missed this weekend so didnt damage my nerves.

Had someone before the weekend said Kimi would get pole or finish 2nd in Monaco I wouldnt really believe it. Didnt do too badly, so thats the positive.

But looking at the lap times Kimi apparently had wrecked his tyres so hard to see how he could stay ahead of Seb. The 4-times champ is in no mood to fool around, seems to be back to his '13 form, and I am afraid Kimi's season is going the same pattern as Mark's that year.

Very disappointing.
Will be interesting what the future brings. If Kimi keeps this sort of performance, there is no reason for Ferrari to replace him. But the real question for me is if Kimi will want to continue...

Not sure he can string together a perfect weekend anymore and without that no chance to win a race anymore... Yet another demoralizing weekend.

[Ricardo F1]

didn't Red Bull know that the undercut was slower ? why try a slower strategy ?

and why Mercedes responded to that ? didn't they know that the undercut won't work ?

 

It is obvious that they thought that the undercut would work at that time . and so did Ferrari

 

in fact Vettel and Ricciardo was way faster than their team mates .. and that is why they were able to extract more from old ultrasoft what their team mates done on new supersoft

Ferrari didn't play it out though.  They pitted Kimi and left Vettel in clean air to build a gap.  They'd be no discussion had Vettel pitted the lap after, come out behind Kimi and sat there to the end.  Bottas was holding Verstappen, Red Bull had to try something.  Simples.  Perfect pit stop and it might have worked.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 29 May 2017 - 00:54.

[TheFlyingFinn]

didn't Red Bull know that the undercut was slower ? why try a slower strategy ?

and why Mercedes responded to that ? didn't they know that the undercut won't work ?

 

It is obvious that they thought that the undercut would work at that time . and so did Ferrari

 

in fact Vettel and Ricciardo was way faster than their team mates .. and that is why they were able to extract more from old ultrasoft what their team mates done on new supersoft

Sigh. Red Bull wanted to try something, they even said do opposite to Bottas. Who did Ferrari want Kimi to jump in pits? Only fair way to play it would have been pit both drivers on consecutive laps..

Edited by TheFlyingFinn, 29 May 2017 - 00:56.

[xtremeclock]

Ferrari didn't play it out though.  They pitted Kimi and left Vettel in clean air to build a gap.  They'd be no discussion had Vettel pitted the lap after, come out behind Kimi and sat there to the end.  Bottas was holding Verstappen, Red Bull had to try something.  Simples.  Perfect pit stop and it might have worked.

 

If Vettel had a race pace that Kimi didn't have, and its pretty clear he did , why he was going to pit a lap after a Kimi ? To give away a possible win @ Monaco?

 

Kimi didn't do anything to earn the victory, Vettel did.

 

Kimi was in control of his own race, he had to build gap and he couldn't, in fact, his lap times at the end of the stint were pretty similar to the ones of Carlos Sainz JR in his TORO ROSSO.

Edited by xtremeclock, 29 May 2017 - 01:07.

[spacekid]

Why did Ferrari have to 'let' Kimi win by pitting Seb when he didn't need to pit?

Kimi was faster on fresh tyres, so clearly pitting when he did was the fastest strategy for him. Sebs fastest strategy was to pit a few laps later. Both drivers ran their fastest strategy.

You don't slow one car down on purpose in a race, that's nuts.

[TheFlyingFinn]

Why did Ferrari have to 'let' Kimi win by pitting Seb when he didn't need to pit?

Kimi was faster on fresh tyres, so clearly pitting when he did was the fastest strategy for him. Sebs fastest strategy was to pit a few laps later. Both drivers ran their fastest strategy.

You don't slow one car down on purpose in a race, that's nuts.

But you pit one to make sure he comes out in traffic? Seriously, this place is nuts.. And "let" win? Teams usually have internal rules about this. Not screw the other driver over. Not Ferrari apparently.

[seb5vet]

Ferrari didn't play it out though.  They pitted Kimi and left Vettel in clean air to build a gap.  They'd be no discussion had Vettel pitted the lap after, come out behind Kimi and sat there to the end.  Bottas was holding Verstappen, Red Bull had to try something.  Simples.  Perfect pit stop and it might have worked.

 

why punish Vettel for being faster than his team mate?

Ferrari gave Kimi what they thought at that moment (like Red Bull and Mercedes) the better strategy to protect the win (the priority for the team)

but Ferrari isn't against Vettel .. it is not like they will ruin Vettel's race or work against him to secure Kimi's win .. they are racing at the end .. if Vettel was faster than his team mate on old ultrasofts and there is no danger from behind then there is no reason to pit him 

 

ang again Kimi had what was thought by all teams at that moment the best strategy  

[Mandzipop]

So far this season the Ferrari drivers seem to pit around 5 laps apart. Whether it be undercut or overcut, I think Ferrari have been trying to cover both bases.

 

Ferrari would never have let Seb pit until they were confident that he would have cleared Sainz. That might have been the game changer.

 

The consensus of the experts of engineers, drivers, team managers etc.. is that overcut or undercut, if both cars were clear of Sainz, Seb would have had the pace to clear Kimi.

 

I said this after quali, there was no clear overcut/undercut with the Ferrari. The FP2 times were giving similar laptimes. Kimi was getting the tyres up to temp quicker than Seb.

 

Had the Sauber not pitted, then Kimi would have probably won the race.

[Chiwie]

Difficult call by Ferrari, too many variables to take into consideration, such as safety cars, traffic.
Pit strategy is never straight forward like we seen in the past.
Vettel clocked some fast laps in the end of the first stint and made his strategy work, so I think he deserves the win, he earned it.
Gutted for Kimi I wanted him to get a good result so bad, but such is life.

[EthanM]

Had the Sauber not pitted, then Kimi would have probably won the race.

 

I 've seen this posted here a few times, and I assume it's something the commentators pointed out, but it's false. Ericsson had gotten a blue flag and they were at antony noghes, vettel would have passed Ericsson on the pit 'straight' 4 seconds later anyway if he didn't pit

[Stumpy29]

Man if Ferrari conspired to screw Kimi in favor of Seb then they truly suck at it. Plus it still needed two fast 1:52 inlaps from Seb and the Sauber pitting in fortuitously and still he was only a couple of tenths ahead.

 

They should copy what those chaps at Mercedes do. When they "screw" one of their drivers, they don't leave anything to chance. 

[jameshunt7]

 

 

Kimi didn't do anything to earn the victory, Vettel did.

 

 

 

Oh come on man, he gave his everything to get pole! So what crap is this "didn't do anything to earn the victory"? Do not give me that kinda crap.

 

Seb was faster in the race, that's a fact and I, as a huge Kimi fan, would whole heatedly accept. 

 

Kimi came short pace wise during the race. Was there anything the Kimi's side of the pit could've done better to get him the win? I don't know. Seb and his team surely did and delivered. Im gutted for Kimi knowing he got pole but came just 2nd after the race. I'm sure he was gutted too after seeing Seb come out from the pits in front of him. Surely he was thinking he can't do anything anymore, overtaking is difficult in Monaco, and he wouldn't risk getting both the car damaged trying to overtake. I guess that's why he lost the taste to win after seeing Seb come out in front of him. Really gutted to see Kimi in this situation. And knowing that Ferrari will likely keep it this way to secure their lead, I mean, I'll just wait until Seb runs out of luck I guess.

 

(edited, grammatical)

Edited by jameshunt7, 29 May 2017 - 06:02.

[Atreiu]

 

I challenge any one who thinks Ferrari helped Vettel to answer those questions : 

1- Do you think that Redbull helped Ricciardo over Max ? why? 

2- Do you think that Mercedes helped Ricciardo over their own driver by choosing the undercut?

 

THE FACT is all big teams chose the undercut for their front runners .. but for some reason some people think about conspiracy only about Ferrari

 

 

 

Apples, oranges and bananas. Or Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes (Bottas).

 

Ferrari sacrificed Kimi's track position in literally the most difficult circuit on the calendar for overtaking. It was like Hamilton and Mercedes at Australia, except with teammates.

[josepatches]

Why did Ferrari have to 'let' Kimi win by pitting Seb when he didn't need to pit?

Kimi was faster on fresh tyres, so clearly pitting when he did was the fastest strategy for him. Sebs fastest strategy was to pit a few laps later. Both drivers ran their fastest strategy.

You don't slow one car down on purpose in a race, that's nuts.

Because they wanted team orders to let their guy win. They are mad because Ferrari should try to stop Vettel. They blame the team because Vettel had a chance to win the race.

Its funny because even if it was true that Ferrari wanted to favour Vettel Thats exactly what they were asking for Kimi. Ferrari should destroy Vettel's race to favour kimi. It makes nosense.

[barzini]

Because they wanted team orders to let their guy win. They are mad because Ferrari should try to stop Vettel. They blame the team because Vettel had a chance to win the race.

Its funny because even if it was true that Ferrari wanted to favour Vettel Thats exactly what they were asking for Kimi. Ferrari should destroy Vettel's race to favour kimi. It makes nosense.

When you run out of arguments, you start that kind of nonesense. Still, after pages and pages - none of you have given a good reason why Kimi was put into traffic.

[Chiwie]

When you run out of arguments, you start that kind of nonesense. Still, after pages and pages - none of you have given a good reason why Kimi was put into traffic.

Unless you work within Scuderia Ferrari, everyone is just speculating including you. Nobody can give you a compelling reason without examining the data and the reasoning behind their strategy. This happen sometimes and strategy is a complex topic.
Everyone think is an expert and everything is common sense after the race is over.

[barzini]

Unless you work within Scuderia Ferrari, everyone is just speculating including you. Nobody can give you a compelling reason without examining the data and the reasoning behind their strategy. This happen sometimes and strategy is a complex topic.
Everyone think is an expert and everything is common sense after the race is over.

That's true, but the team with available data should've known that if they pit him now he will be behind backmarkers and by thus, giving the track position away in freaking Monaco 😀
I think it was clear what Ferrari did there.
This will be my last post into Kimi v Seb - topics because the team doesn't let the other one finish ahead the other one. Sad.

[LuckyStrike1]

[RPM40]

It seems to me regardless of how Kimi lost, the blame was going to be pushed to the team.

I actually thought they would switch them in a more underhanded way through a very slow pitstop or something, but Kimi just lost on pace.