13 replies to this topic

[doc knutsen]

After sitting engine-less on the shelf for some 21 years, my C2 racer has finally had enough rest, and wants to be restored and put into running order again. In period, it ran with an 1800 BDT engine, also briefly with a Hart 420 atmo power. The BDT blew up comprehensively at Mondello Park when fitted to my F3000 Reynard running in the BOSS series, so a new period-correct engine is a requirement for a revival of the little C2 racer.

 

To this end, I have located a V6 Buick which was built for a Spice in period, but has seen very little running. To me, it seems a very sensible engine for the purpose, being a dry-sumped 4.2 litre unit with aluminium cylinder heads, Kinsler injection and a good selection of bells and whistles, with the promise of 450BHP and a nice torque curve.

In addition, the engine is  compact enough to fit the engine bay vacated by the BDT. So, is anybody on TNF familar with this power unit, or able to suggest where to go for spare parts and advice, indeed any kind of advice would be much appreciated.

Edited by doc knutsen, 05 June 2017 - 15:26.

[PeterElleray]

Is this the same base engine as the Buick v6 used in Indycars in the 80's 90's ? If so, the bottom end should be designed around Cosworth pumps and DFV front lower engine mounting.

[doc knutsen]

Is this the same base engine as the Buick v6 used in Indycars in the 80's 90's ? If so, the bottom end should be designed around Cosworth pumps and DFV front lower engine mounting.

 

This engine does have Cosworth dry sump pumps, but the block is the production cast iron one, not the bespoke single-seater unit. The engine in GrC trim is an atmospheric unit, not a turbocharged one, although most of the parts except the cylinder block seem to be purpose-built.

[PeterElleray]

Yes, i understand that its not t/c, and obviously you're on top of the cosworth copy sump/pumps, so i guess you have already investigated former Menard teams/supplers etc, or is this one very different inside ? Obviously the intake system is. Sounds like a nice piece of kit - does the sump have the standard DFV/X 9" lower mount bolt centres out of interest. As you presumably know the Indy parts were designed to interchange with a DFX.

[Lola5000]

I had one of these engines in a Formula libre Lola T87/50 (F3000 chassis) stroked to just under 5 litre .

Great engine lots of power ,sound above all wonderfully made engine ,compression was 12 to 1 which made starting hard on a small battery.

[doc knutsen]

Yes, i understand that its not t/c, and obviously you're on top of the cosworth copy sump/pumps, so i guess you have already investigated former Menard teams/supplers etc, or is this one very different inside ? Obviously the intake system is. Sounds like a nice piece of kit - does the sump have the standard DFV/X 9" lower mount bolt centres out of interest. As you presumably know the Indy parts were designed to interchange with a DFX.

I have just gotten to inspect the engine more closely, having unloaded it from the transporter. Yes, the sump does have the 9" lower fitting bolt centres. I have not started on dismantling the engine yet, except for removing a cylinder head to have a quick peek inside which confirmed that the engine looks like it has been merely fired up once or twice, pistons and valves look like new.

I will keep it assembled for fitting to the chassis, fabricating engine mounts and a flywheel housing adapter also looking to do exhaust manifolds and tail pipes, before dismantling it for a re-build. The car weighed about 690 kgs un-ballasted when it ran the BDT  in full GrC trim including lights, air jacks etc so it should be interesting with this power unit fitted.

Edited by doc knutsen, 06 June 2017 - 21:12.

[PeterElleray]

Thanks for the update - if memory serves then you should have DFV front mounts and the standard small block rear mounts on the bellhousing ( i think the v6 used the same pattern, but need to check). That being the case, it might help you with your bellhousing. Which box are you using?

[doc knutsen]

Thanks for the update - if memory serves then you should have DFV front mounts and the standard small block rear mounts on the bellhousing ( i think the v6 used the same pattern, but need to check). That being the case, it might help you with your bellhousing. Which box are you using?

Thanks for your comments, they are much appreciated. The box in use is an FGB.

[E1pix]

After sitting engine-less on the shelf for some 21 years, my C2 racer has finally had enough rest, and wants to be restored and put into running order again. In period, it ran with an 1800 BDT engine, also briefly with a Hart 420 atmo power. The BDT blew up comprehensively at Mondello Park when fitted to my F3000 Reynard running in the BOSS series, so a new period-correct engine is a requirement for a revival of the little C2 racer.

To this end, I have located a V6 Buick which was built for a Spice in period, but has seen very little running. To me, it seems a very sensible engine for the purpose, being a dry-sumped 4.2 litre unit with aluminium cylinder heads, Kinsler injection and a good selection of bells and whistles, with the promise of 450BHP and a nice torque curve.
In addition, the engine is compact enough to fit the engine bay vacated by the BDT. So, is anybody on TNF familar with this power unit, or able to suggest where to go for spare parts and advice, indeed any kind of advice would be much appreciated.

I'm almost certain this is the same engine an IMSA team I worked with used in a Spice AK93 in 1992 and '93.

A couple leads:
-- Tom Hoke: Engineer and brilliant. I could probably find him from a mutual friend... EDIT: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomhoke
-- Doug Peterson/Comptech: Engine builder for the Buick factory teams in IMSA, currently active I believe (SCCA and/or Huffaker Engineering may be sources to locate Doug);
-- Tom Lynam: Gearbox tech, may have relocated back home to Ireland;
-- Jeremy Dale: Later driver for Brix Racing (the team I worked with), still active and may have interest despite the Spice being the last he drove (bad crash).

Edited by E1pix, 07 June 2017 - 21:10.

[PeterElleray]

doc - That should give you quite a choice on the bellhousing then. Lots of Lola's used DG /Small block combination  and you have the same bolt pattern on the FGA as the DG and thesame on the  v6 as a small block. (I checked the v6 , and the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as the small block). Many other examples, the Spice may be another possibility, unless it used a VG box - which clutch are you using and what sort of length of bellhousing are you looking at? Starter Motor ? 

[Catalina Park]

It may or may not help but the Holden version of the Buick V6 was used in Formula Holden during the 90s.

[fausto]

Good news, look forward to seeing the car racing again! IIRC one of the IMSA Lights Buick specialists should have been Lozano http://www.lozanobrothersporting.com/ also, a Buick engined "Lights" Argo JM19B was raced in recent years in GroupC Historics, cannot tell more at the moment, sorry

[doc knutsen]

doc - That should give you quite a choice on the bellhousing then. Lots of Lola's used DG /Small block combination  and you have the same bolt pattern on the FGA as the DG and thesame on the  v6 as a small block. (I checked the v6 , and the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as the small block). Many other examples, the Spice may be another possibility, unless it used a VG box - which clutch are you using and what sort of length of bellhousing are you looking at? Starter Motor ? 

 

The bellhousing used with the BDT was actually in two parts, one a magnesium BD to FG unit, and bolted to this was another adapter, about 1" thick, manufactured for the works Tiga/BDT/E by Tiga theselves, I believe, allowing the engine to lie at an angle, as in its original RS200 installation. I will check the dimension of the clutch input shaft and how it fits with the Buick l/w flywheel. It uses a twin-plate sintered AP clutch. Starter motor...I will have to check, but I seem to remember we used the RS200 unit.

 

In the Cheek C288 installation, the FGB bolts to a 1" alloy plate that picks up the apex of the two tubular pyramid sub-frames that lie either side of the engine, these points also providing the pivot for the rear  suspension rocker arms. The bottom of the alloy plate was supported by two tubular members running parallell, either side of the BDT sump, but with the Buick having a sump designed for DF-type engine installation, this seems to be an adequate way of locating the lower part of the engine.

Edited by doc knutsen, 08 June 2017 - 20:25.

[PeterElleray]

yes , we didnt run lower tubes when using the buick in indycars, the DFV style sump was adequate, but did have a top strut alongside the cam covers, for obvious reasons. From memory this picked up a dummy bracket that allowed the DFV stykle fishplate top connection  to the monocque - not something you need unless there are DFV mounts on your tub, if so could be handy.

Edited by PeterElleray, 10 June 2017 - 22:34.