114 replies to this topic

[sopa]

I saw a claim in another thread and thought... this could be food for thought.

 

So the best Asian driver of all times? Anyone from F1? Pre-F1? Indycars? Perhaps in local (i.e Japanese GT) series, who has really stood out?

 

Haven't created a poll, because I am unsure, who all to include there.

[Zava]

André Lotterer

[Gary Davies]

Prince Bira perhaps?

[RedBaron]

André Lotterer

 

[Jovanotti]

Somehow the thread title reminded me of this:

 

Sorry...

[ensign14]

Problem in rating Bira is he lost his best years to WW2.  Then again, had the Nazis not invaded Poland, I doubt he would have got a drive with Merc or Auto Union.

 

I would suggest Kazuyoshi Hoshino as the Great Lost F1 Hope.  Everyone bangs on about Senna's opening lap at Donington, but Hoshino's first-ever Formula 1 Grand Prix lap saw him pass 13 cars. 

[chunder27]

Got to be Sato.  Awesome in junior formulas.

 

I would also put forward Nobutero Taniniguchi, the first drifet anyone really knew and a decent driver of all sorts of things.

 

Obviously there are countless bike racing Asians. the best of which would be Daijiro Katoh, Tadayuki Okada, Tetsuya Harada. Norick Abe.

[Dander]

[messy]

Satoshi Motoyama has to be worth a shout? Granted, most of his success has been in his homeland - but there's been quite a lot of it. 

 

Daijiro Kato was a GP Motorcycling World Champion, and could have achieved so much more but for his tragic accident.

Edited by messy, 07 June 2017 - 11:09.

[Risil]

André Lotterer

 

Is it Neel Jani you're thinking of? He has an Indian father and drives for Porsche. Great driver, anyhow.

[Radoye]

Well one thing is sure, it ain't Alex Yoong for sure!

 

 

Prince Bira perhaps?

 

Problem in rating Bira is he lost his best years to WW2.  Then again, had the Nazis not invaded Poland, I doubt he would have got a drive with Merc or Auto Union.

 

I would suggest Kazuyoshi Hoshino as the Great Lost F1 Hope.  Everyone bangs on about Senna's opening lap at Donington, but Hoshino's first-ever Formula 1 Grand Prix lap saw him pass 13 cars. 

 

Satoshi Motoyama has to be worth a shout? Granted, most of his success has been in his homeland - but there's been quite a lot of it. 

 

Daijiro Kato was a GP Motorcycling World Champion, and could have achieved so much more but for his tragic accident.

 

These are all very good calls!

 

B. Bira was a very interesting character with many great accomplishments on and off the track, but also seemingly his own worst enemy with chaos in his private life and shady business dealings that more often didn't work out than did, and caused him to lose vast amounts of money, his own and others'. But he could drive a race car, there's no doubt!

 

Hoshino is the elder stateman of Japanese motorsport, comparable with Mario Andretti in terms of longevity and success - albeit, Hoshino's success was more local whereas Andretti did it on the grand stage. I believe he holds the record for most Formula Nippon titles, and was also successful in sports- and touring cars.

 

Motoyama is another highly successful driver on the Japanese national scene who won multiple titles in open wheel and sportscars, and is still going strong today.

[Rinehart]

Sato based on his 500 win. Highest achievement by an Asian driver. 

Also a shout out to Nasser Al-Attiyah - couple of Paris Dakar wins.... if Doha is in Asia...

[Izzyeviel]

 

Also the best F1 game on the SNES.

[Zava]

Is it Neel Jani you're thinking of? He has an Indian father and drives for Porsche. Great driver, anyhow.

nah, I was just joking. as we are a bit short of candidates, might as well go for Lotterer. lived (lives?) in japan, races in japan, looks japanese in LMP1 onboard shots ( ), might as well be japanese.

Edited by Zava, 07 June 2017 - 12:08.

[Scotracer]

Keiichi Tsuchiya has done well. Two class wins at Le Mans.

[noriaki]

Depending on where you draw the European/Asian border, Daniil Kvyat could also be in this discussion...

 

Discounting bike riders it has to be between Sato and Hoshino though (who, in addition to all his successes in Japan, was pretty close to have a Benetton Suzuka one off as late as in 1994 iirc..). Imo the winner of that contest is depending on how much value you will put on Takuma's Indy title. 

[mdaclarke]

Kamui Kobayashi

[Kristian]

Only one answer really. 

 

 

Edited by Kristian, 07 June 2017 - 12:44.

[KWSN - DSM]

Kazuyoshi Hoshino.

 

[muramasa]

　

I dont see the point in categorizing Asian driver at all. I always get perplexed by this general perception that you want to divide european & south/north american and the rest, that's the source and cause of unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers (esp "crashy" notion, that's also helped by the racism words in banzai and kamikaze, former means well done, yahoo, congrats etc the latter means benevolent wind. Imagine how harmless or even lovely words of yours like oxford or mistral or just whatever get used in negative ways internationally? utter abhorrence.). Nakajima jr and Koabyashi had less accidents than average in F1 but how quick they got called crashy was amazing and general perception about them got fixed as crashy forever. Same goes for Sato, sure he's more risk taker and more accident prone in F1 and Indy but there are always some other Western drivers that are as crashy/erratic or even more so than Sato, but general perception is as if he alone crashes a lot and more than others. All down to this "Asian/Japanese driver" categorization mindset and unless this mindset gone, this unfair unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers will remain as curse and stigma.

Edited by muramasa, 07 June 2017 - 12:56.

[krapmeister]

Jack Brabham

[ensign14]

　

Imagine how harmless or even lovely words of yours like oxford or mistral or just whatever get used in negative ways internationally?

 

Happens all the time.  "Football" in American means "most boring waste of atoms and time in the history of the universe".

[sopa]

 

Also a shout out to Nasser Al-Attiyah - couple of Paris Dakar wins.... if Doha is in Asia...

 

If we include rally drivers, then yeah - Al-Attiyah is a serious contender.

 

Depending on where you draw the European/Asian border, Daniil Kvyat could also be in this discussion...

 

In terms of birthplace Kvyat was born in Ufa, which is located... just about on the west side of Ural mountains, which is usually considered as the geographical boundary between Europe and Asia. But fair enough - that's actually pretty close!

[jjcale]

　

I dont see the point in categorizing Asian driver at all. I always get perplexed by this general perception that you want to divide european & south/north american and the rest, that's the source and cause of unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers (esp "crashy" notion, that's also helped by the racism words in banzai and kamikaze, former means well done, yahoo, congrats etc the latter means benevolent wind. Imagine how harmless or even lovely words of yours like oxford or mistral or just whatever get used in negative ways internationally? utter abhorrence.). Nakajima jr and Koabyashi had less accidents than average in F1 but how quick they got called crashy was amazing and general perception about them got fixed as crashy forever. Same goes for Sato, sure he's more risk taker and more accident prone in F1 and Indy but there are always some other Western drivers that are as crashy/erratic or even more so than Sato, but general perception is as if he alone crashes a lot and more than others. All down to this "Asian/Japanese driver" categorization mindset and unless this mindset gone, this unfair unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers will remain as curse and stigma.

 

The whole concept of "asia" and "europe" come from this sort of thinking that you decry .., there is a land mass called Eurasia and in any other circumstance the land mass would be described as a continent. But ... At the western end behind a couple of mountain ranges live "westerners" and they decided that the sub-continent where they live is should be called a continent .... and the rest of Eurasia should be a separate continent called Asia ... and even though somewhere like India/Pakistan/Bangladesh is also a land mass behind mountain ranges and jutting out into oceans and inhabited by a racially homogeneous population, somehow that is only a "sub-continent" and part  of "Asia". ..... it makes no sense once you remove Western blinkers from your thinking ... but somehow all the rest of the world goes along with this "geographical concept" 

 

So good luck with trying to persuade this board not to think in terms of Westerners and "asians".

 

And just to be balanced ... Banzai and Kamikaze have meanings in English (based on military history) which are very much in line with how the words are used in the F1 context ... and which are very different from the meaning they have in Japanese  ....  I dont think the current generation uses those words in a negative way - beyond using them to describe instances of overly optimistic driving... and I think that only applies to Kamikaze - Banzai is positive eg a "Banzai Lap" is meant to be a very good lap. 

Edited by jjcale, 07 June 2017 - 17:28.

[MortenF1]

Between Takuma Sato and Tora Takagi I think.

[f1paul]

[f1paul]

He was always flying, was Kamui!

 

[Prost1997T]

Masahiko Kageyama? Or maybe K. Nakajima.

[king_crud]

Banzai was a great tv show: place bets now!

[Tsarwash]

Depending on where you draw the European/Asian border, Daniil Kvyat could also be in this discussion...

 

Discounting bike riders it has to be between Sato and Hoshino though (who, in addition to all his successes in Japan, was pretty close to have a Benetton Suzuka one off as late as in 1994 iirc..). Imo the winner of that contest is depending on how much value you will put on Takuma's Indy title. 

Considering that where he was born is more Easterly than both Tehran and Abu Dhabi, I don't think we can say that he comes from Europe.

[THEWALL]

[William Hunt]

Kazuyoshi Hoshino

[Spillage]

In Formula 1, probably Kamui Kobayashi. But all across all series, it's tough to bet against Sato after his Indy 500 win.

[Ruusperi]

Kobayashi.

I'm still mad that Sauber replaced him with Gutierrez. Should have gone to Force India. Or McLaren, but it was reserved for Perez of whom Kamui beat in 2011 by double amount of points.

[Prost1997T]

In Formula 1, probably Kamui Kobayashi. But all across all series, it's tough to bet against Sato after his Indy 500 win.

 

He's had 2 wins in the last 15 years, and is better known for crashing. I can't vote for Sato with that kind of track record.

 

Also, I should probably clarify that I'm referring to Japanese drivers in particular. There are probably others that I don't know about in Asia as a whole. Should we count Russia as an Asian or European country?

Edited by Prost1997T, 07 June 2017 - 19:05.

[ehagar]

As far as riders go, I imagine it's between Harada or Kato. Just to put an alternative name out there, what about Takazumi Katayama. He is really before my time, so I can't really comment other than seeing a few videos showing him (well, they really focus on  Roberts and Sheene).

[The Kanisteri]

 

[Talisman]

He's had 2 wins in the last 15 years, and is better known for crashing. I can't vote for Sato with that kind of track record.

 

I have to agree, his mindset hadn't changed after 15 years either with an inability to assess risk in a conventional manner.  His career has been enhanced by having continual Honda backing in a spec series and 2 wins isn't a great haul for the period he's been racing for regardless of the kudos attached to the Indy win.

 

Its difficult to assess the drivers who raced for most of their careers in Japan, of the ones who competed on the international stage Kamui Kobayashi I rated the highest with good speed and racecraft, let down by a lack of funding just at a time F1 required it most.

 

The problem with rating many Asian drivers is that they were often niche drivers who specialised in a particular race at home.  Joginder Singh and Shekhar Mehta in the safari rally come to mind.  

[Risil]

　
I dont see the point in categorizing Asian driver at all. I always get perplexed by this general perception that you want to divide european & south/north american and the rest, that's the source and cause of unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers (esp "crashy" notion, that's also helped by the racism words in banzai and kamikaze, former means well done, yahoo, congrats etc the latter means benevolent wind. Imagine how harmless or even lovely words of yours like oxford or mistral or just whatever get used in negative ways internationally? utter abhorrence.). Nakajima jr and Koabyashi had less accidents than average in F1 but how quick they got called crashy was amazing and general perception about them got fixed as crashy forever. Same goes for Sato, sure he's more risk taker and more accident prone in F1 and Indy but there are always some other Western drivers that are as crashy/erratic or even more so than Sato, but general perception is as if he alone crashes a lot and more than others. All down to this "Asian/Japanese driver" categorization mindset and unless this mindset gone, this unfair unreasonable stereotype against Japanese drivers will remain as curse and stigma.

 

Top racing drivers have historically been from Europe or North America, so I think it's natural for fans to have an interest in drivers from less-traditional parts of the world per se. 

 

That said, Asia is a really big continent (even when you discount the European bit on the western end JJcale) and given that there isn't a single "Asian" racing scene I'm not sure it's a coherent concept. 

 

Best Japanese driver? Since May, Takuma Sato. Kamui Kobayashi deserved more from F1 and he's got plenty of career ahead of him. On bikes, you can take your pick, although sadly the cadre of talented Japanese riders seems to have diminished since the 1990s. To add some more names to that list, Nobby Ueda, Noriyuki Haga, Norick Abe and any of the Aoki brothers you care to remember.

[KWSN - DSM]

Top racing drivers have historically been from Europe or North America, so I think it's natural for fans to have an interest in drivers from less-traditional parts of the world per se. 

 

That said, Asia is a really big continent (even when you discount the European bit on the western end JJcale) and given that there isn't a single "Asian" racing scene I'm not sure it's a coherent concept. 

 

Best Japanese driver? Since May, Takuma Sato. Kamui Kobayashi deserved more from F1 and he's got plenty of career ahead of him. On bikes, you can take your pick, although sadly the cadre of talented Japanese riders seems to have diminished since the 1990s. To add some more names to that list, Nobby Ueda, Noriyuki Haga, Norick Abe and any of the Aoki brothers you care to remember.

 

I would say

 

Top racing drivers have historically been from Europe or South America.

 

[Risil]

Yeah, Europe and North America and Brazil and Argentina if we're being accurate.

[Talisman]

Yeah, Europe and North America and Brazil and Argentina if we're being accurate.

If you're being REALLY accurate it's Europe and the descendants of Europeans in both north and South America.

[messy]

I find it hard to argue for Sato. He wasn't much good in F1, and (sorry) hasn't been much good in Indycar over a looong period of time, with flashes of pace followed by crashes. His Indy 500 win was a great story, but it was a one-off race and funny things happen in one-off races. For me Kobayashi was infinitely more impressive in F1, he has won in the WEC and would edge Sato, actually he'd beat him by a distance.

[KWSN - DSM]

Yeah, Europe and North America and Brazil and Argentina if we're being accurate.

 

Columbia?

 

[FNG]

Kamui Kobayashi surely. I still never understood why he didn't get another seat in F1. That's the driver who should have had strong backing from Honda or Toyota. Great person, great driver, a lot of talent and wasn't a crash king like a lot of the others. Really wish he would have stayed in F1.

Edited by FNG, 08 June 2017 - 17:02.

[Risil]

Columbia?
 

 

I said historically and I'm not prepared to let Juan Montoya into realms of history yet. Roberto Guerrero had his moments and Ricardo Londono showed up, at least for one qualifying session, but Colombia is still pretty non-traditional to me.

 

Unless you meant Columbia University but I can't help you there. Think Mark Donohue went to Brown.

[sopa]

 

The problem with rating many Asian drivers is that they were often niche drivers who specialised in a particular race at home.  Joginder Singh and Shekhar Mehta in the safari rally come to mind.  

 

 

Singh and Mehta were from Africa, Kenya.

[apoka]

Samurai Fernando Alonso obviously.

[KWSN - DSM]

I said historically and I'm not prepared to let Juan Montoya into realms of history yet. Roberto Guerrero had his moments and Ricardo Londono showed up, at least for one qualifying session, but Colombia is still pretty non-traditional to me.

 

Unless you meant Columbia University but I can't help you there. Think Mark Donohue went to Brown.

 

Guess it is personal perception, I think Europe and South America when thinking F1 - I do not mentally include the Caribbean islands in North America although they belong there, leaving my personal mental North America with Mexico, USA and Canada - Not sure why Montoya would not belong, do we have a qualifier on when tradition starts?

 

Mentally I do not include Australia, New Zealand and Russia in Asia, so no I would not think Brabham, Jones, Amon or Kvyat (who surely can not count if using your Montoya qualifier).

 

My mental Asia rightly or (most likely) wrongly is Japan.

 

So there goes the reasoning for an argument I likely should not have started if I started it.

 

[ensign14]

Singh and Mehta were from Africa, Kenya.

 

Mehta was from Uganda.  Idi Amin expelled him and his family from his own country because of not-racism (as we know the only racists in Africa were the colonists).  When Mehta won the East African Rally, Amin, without a trace of sarcasm, telegrammed his congratulations that an African had shown Europeans how to do it.