99 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

This was absolutely nuts and I do not blame him for being livid:

 

Kvyat was initially given a drivethrough penalty (pictured) but the stewards later announced it should have been a 10-second stop/go penalty so made him take that too.

 

 

The man himself:

 

"I don't understand this. It's a circus, a stupid ****ing circus.

"I will go and talk to Charlie. It's annoying me, it's really annoying me.

"A simple job, and he can't even do that job properly.

"Maybe it's better to go in the back room because now the heat is up for me I will not want to say anything wrong to any of them and I'm not really sure it's Charlie.

"I want to understand first of all who does this job.

"All I know is our team manager was for 10 laps arguing with the FIA that we shouldn't get another additional penalty and they said 'no, sorry, we have this'."

When Kvyat took the extra 10s penalty, a wheelnut problem caused a severe pitstop delay and prompted his subsequent retirement.

 

 

http://www.autosport...a-stupid-circus

 

To make it worse, he'll probably get into trouble for contravening the rule about swearing that was brought in after Vettel asked for Charlie to be told to **** off. What a shambles.

[Marklar]

Lol, I was just complaining about this in the race thread

Kvyat was initially given a drivethrough penalty (pictured) but the stewards later announced it should have been a 10-second stop/go penalty so made him take that too.

 
That's not quite correct. He was supposed to get a 10-seconds-stop-and-go penalty, but first got a Drive Through, this was wrong, so he got a 10 seconds penalty on top of it (difference is that you are allowed to do a pitstop, which is about 20 seconds quicker than a 10-seconds-stop-and-go-penalty)

 

Basicallly it's Drive Through (~20 seconds), 10-seconds-stop-and-go (~30 seconds) and 10 seconds penalty (~10 seconds). Kvyat got the first and third in order to have the time loss of the 2nd, because the FIA f* up.

 

See here

 

Edited by Marklar, 12 June 2017 - 07:27.

[Laster]

Ridculous stewarding, giving two penalties because they ****ed up. Kvyat has every right to be pissed off. I'd like the stewards to be given a penalty after that one.

[Nonesuch]

"A simple job, and he can't even do that job properly."
 
No kidding! It's high time for a new FIA race director. Good for Kyvat to point out the obvious.
 
Not only can these illustrious guys not figure out how to penalise a simple sporting incident, they also seem to think it's that much worse than the bungling Magnussen going racing under safety car conditions, and to top it off they didn't care one bit when the top five blast past marshals working in the run-off area, which is as clear a Double Yellow situation as it gets.
 
These people seem to have learned nothing from Japan 2014. The hourglass has merely been flipped. It's just a matter of time before disaster strikes again.

[RedBaron]

I didn't see any problem with the penalty.

 

He was handed a drive through, it was meant to be a 10 second stop-go.

 

He served his drive through.

 

Having 10 second added to his race time at the end is better than a 10 second stop go.

 

Why?

 

Because being 10 seconds further down the order meant he would have been stuck behind slower cars, holding up his progress up the order.

 

So not having to stop for 10 additional seconds would have made it possible for him to have been further ahead thus limiting the damage of the 10 second time penalty.

 

A drive through penalty + 10 second time penalty at the end of the race is the same total time (maybe 1-2 seconds faster in fact once you include slowing down/speeding up into the pit box and over timing the station penalty) as far as a 10 second stop go penalty itself goes.

 

They did not have to take a 10 second stop go penalty during the race. They simply took a pit stop and then served the 10 seconds then. Which again is no loss, they were pitting the car anyway.

 

The only thing to be irked about is the FIA getting it wrong, but Kvyat was in no way over penalised or penalised twice or more than he should have been. That is incorrect.

 

It's clear as day in the final paragraph of the FIA release Marklar posted.

Edited by RedBaron, 12 June 2017 - 08:39.

[teejay]

Redbaron - sure, it makes logical sense in the end, but for the FIA to not be able issue the correct penalty at the top tier motorsport category in the world is a genuine worry.

[RedBaron]

Redbaron - sure, it makes logical sense in the end, but for the FIA to not be able issue the correct penalty at the top tier motorsport category in the world is a genuine worry.

 

Yeh that's fair enough and I agree, the FIA should have got it right. I don't remember this happening on other occasions though, it's a one off incident that had no greater negative impact on Kvyat's race than if they had served the correct penalty in the first place.

 

Kvyat was not over penalised. If anything he gained from having a drive through and a separate 10 second time penalty, as I explained. 

 

Toro Rosso decided to pit him for tyres, the wheel nut issue was absolutely unrelated to the 10 stationary seconds he was in the pits serving a time penalty.

 

The FIA had not required him to enter the pits for the 10 second time penalty.

Edited by RedBaron, 12 June 2017 - 08:36.

[Itsme]

I don't see the problem. FIA made a mistake but for Kvyat it had no negative impact. 

 

People make mistakes that is normal. 

[Logiso]

The real question is whether it was supposed to be an additional 10 seconds added to his pitstop which is the normal style of penalty, or whether it was indeed supposed to be a 10 second stop and go penalty like it was back in the days (this sort of penalty has not been used for nearly 15 years...).

 

I think they punished him more severely timewise than they should have done, and then added the correct penalty even though he had already suffered more than enough. It was a shambles for sure.

[LiJu914]

 

The only thing to be irked about is the FIA getting it wrong, but Kvyat was in no way over penalised or penalised twice or more than he should have been. That is incorrect.

 

 

 

The penalties themselves (combined) may have been no bigger disadvatange than what should´ve been done in the first place (10s-stop&go), but by bascially splitting the penalty, it can still cost you, depending on how it interferes with your strategy, SC-Periods etc. I didn´t follow Kvyat´s race, so i don´t know whether that was the case (maybe it was even the opposite..) - but there´s at least the potential for that.

Edited by LiJu914, 12 June 2017 - 08:49.

[quickndirty]

I am not a big fan of Kvyat, but I support his criticism. What are these people thinking?

Edited by quickndirty, 12 June 2017 - 08:51.

[RandomG]

The first little hiccup was when they announced Sainz and Massa were being investigated for a collision. Martin Brundle commented it should have been investigating the cause of the accident ( ie Sainz and Grosjean). Nothing major here, but the technicality was incorrect from the stewards. Then of course they mess up later on. 

[Jon83]

I only saw bits of the race. I'm unclear how having to drive through the pits an extra time though did not have a negative effect? 

 

If it was ten seconds added to the time or added to the pitstop, as it was, then fine but Kvyat was forced to make an extra trip through the pitlane. 

[RedBaron]

The real question is whether it was supposed to be an additional 10 seconds added to his pitstop which is the normal style of penalty, or whether it was indeed supposed to be a 10 second stop and go penalty like it was back in the days (this sort of penalty has not been used for nearly 15 years...).

 

It is black and white in the FIA's release.

 

He was not handed a 10 second stop go penalty on top of the drive through.

 

He was only handed an additional 10 second time penalty which would be added to his race time unless he pitted in which case it would be added to his pitstop.

[RedBaron]

The penalties themselves (combined) may have been no bigger disadvatange than what should´ve been done in the first place (10s-stop&go), but by bascially splitting the penalty, it can still cost you, depending on how it interferes with your strategy, SC-Periods etc. I didn´t follow Kvyat´s race, so i don´t know whether that was the case (maybe it was even the opposite..) - but there´s at least the potential for that.

 

Yes, you're right.

 

If the race had ended under an SC a 10 second time penalty would have been a massive penalty.

 

But the race did not end under an SC so absolutely no additional damage was placed upon Kvyat's race.

 

The FIA made a mistake, sure. But if Toro Rosso and Kvyat had not made a mistake in the first place then he would never had been in that situation.

[RedBaron]

I only saw bits of the race. I'm unclear how having to drive through the pits an extra time though did not have a negative effect? 
 
If it was ten seconds added to the time or added to the pitstop, as it was, then fine but Kvyat was forced to make an extra trip through the pitlane.

 
He wasn't, they just pitted him for tyres.
 

 
He was given a time penalty not a stop go, he did not have to pit. See the last paragraph.

 

If it was ten seconds added to the time or added to the pitstop, as it was, then fine

Edited by RedBaron, 12 June 2017 - 09:08.

[Jon83]

As said, I only saw bits of the race so apologies as I'm trying to piece this together. 

 

Right, if he has the ten seconds added, which was hence the long pitstop, then fine, he's served the correct penalty. But he had to go through the pits before that to serve the drive through he was given in error. 

 

Is that not correct? 

[RedBaron]

As said, I only saw bits of the race so apologies as I'm trying to piece this together. 

 

Right, if he has the ten seconds added, which was hence the long pitstop, then fine, he's served the correct penalty. But he had to go through the pits before that to serve the drive through he was given in error. 

 

Is that not correct? 

 

Correct, he served a drive through in the early stages of the race.

 

Then in the latter stages they announced he would have 10 seconds added to his race time or to any additional pit stops he made.

 

So he drove through the pits 1 time and then later he took a 10 second time penalty on a planned pit stop.

 

That adds up to the same amount of time as a 10 second stop go penalty.

[Kristian]

Maybe one of the stewards had a bet on him getting two penalties in this race 

[ANF]

What's even more funny is that everyone could hear the radio conversation in which Kvyat asked if he should retake his original grid position and his race engineer confirmed that he should do that.

I suppose race control listened in and could have told Kvyat to stay at the back of the grid. Maybe it's the job of race control to inform the competitors of the rules and regulations during the race?

[RedBaron]

Maybe it's the job of race control to inform the competitors of the rules and regulations during the race?

 

What if they helped 1 team/driver avoid a penalty during a race but missed another. They can't be providing full time proactive in race support.

 

It's the teams job to know the rules and put in a request for confirmation at any time.

[sopa]

"A simple job, and he can't even do that job properly."
 

 

That's Kvyat's way of saying "I have got a message to Charlie." 

 

10s stop&go? Why such a harsh penalty? It is very rare to see such penalty in F1 nowadays.

 

Maybe the stewards forgot such penalty even existed any more, then someone reminded them. "Guys, read the rulebook. Remember the old days, when we had 10s stop&go - yeah, that's the right penalty this time!"

[Marklar]

That's Kvyat's way of saying "I have got a message to Charlie."

10s stop&go? Why such a harsh penalty? It is very rare to see such penalty in F1 nowadays.

Maybe the stewards forgot such penalty even existed any more, then someone reminded them. "Guys, read the rulebook. Remember the old days, when we had 10s stop&go - yeah, that's the right penalty this time!"

Ironically Kvyat was the last driver to get a 10 s stop and go penalty. Last year at the Russian GP.

Edited by Marklar, 12 June 2017 - 09:42.

[ExFlagMan]

What's even more funny is that everyone could hear the radio conversation in which Kvyat asked if he should retake his original grid position and his race engineer confirmed that he should do that.

I suppose race control listened in and could have told Kvyat to stay at the back of the grid. Maybe it's the job of race control to inform the competitors of the rules and regulations during the race?

In most forms of motorsport the drivers sign-on before the meeting, which is an acknowledgment that they have read and understood the regulations...

However I guess it is much like ticking the box on a web-site from which you are downloading some software etc.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 12 June 2017 - 09:53.

[Jon83]

Correct, he served a drive through in the early stages of the race.

 

Then in the latter stages they announced he would have 10 seconds added to his race time or to any additional pit stops he made.

 

So he drove through the pits 1 time and then later he took a 10 second time penalty on a planned pit stop.

 

That adds up to the same amount of time as a 10 second stop go penalty.

 

Right sure, but that's where the 'stop-go Vs time penalty' bit comes into it. 

[RedBaron]

Right sure, but that's where the 'stop-go Vs time penalty' bit comes into it.

I'm not following. I don't understand the 'but'

A stop go penalty consists of going through the pits and stopping for 10 seconds.

Kvyat did that, but seperatly. So the total time lost is the same.

He wasn't peanlised anymore than if the FIA had originally given him a stop go.

Edited by RedBaron, 12 June 2017 - 10:10.

[Jon83]

Right I think I'm with you. 

 

I thought with normal 'stop and go' penalties, you couldn't incorporate an actual tire change into the stop, hence my questions. 

[Clatter]

What's even more funny is that everyone could hear the radio conversation in which Kvyat asked if he should retake his original grid position and his race engineer confirmed that he should do that.

I suppose race control listened in and could have told Kvyat to stay at the back of the grid. Maybe it's the job of race control to inform the competitors of the rules and regulations during the race?

Personally I think the competitors should be fully aware of the rules and not require external help.

[redreni]

The stewards should not apply less than the minimum penalty.

 

Kvyat should remember he wouldn't have been penalised at all had he realised he needed to retake his position before SC line 1.

 

Also, if he's going to act all aggrieved, he should also explain why he thinks he was disadvantaged by receiving the two penalties he was given as compared with if he had been given the correct penalty?

 

With a 10s stop-go, you lose the time it takes to tour the lane, plus the time loss for decelerating into the box and accelerating out, plus the 10s you spend stationary. If you are given a drive-through plus a 10s time penalty, the overall time loss is the same except you don't lose time decelerating into the box and accelerating out.

 

Ultimately it makes no odds, though, because STR did a perfectly good job of ruining their own race without any extra help from the FIA.

[jstrains]

I would ban this clown from F1 immediately...

[HoldTheLine]

The stewards should not apply less than the minimum penalty.

 

Kvyat should remember he wouldn't have been penalised at all had he realised he needed to retake his position before SC line 1.

 

Also, if he's going to act all aggrieved, he should also explain why he thinks he was disadvantaged by receiving the two penalties he was given as compared with if he had been given the correct penalty?

 

With a 10s stop-go, you lose the time it takes to tour the lane, plus the time loss for decelerating into the box and accelerating out, plus the 10s you spend stationary. If you are given a drive-through plus a 10s time penalty, the overall time loss is the same except you don't lose time decelerating into the box and accelerating out.

 

Ultimately it makes no odds, though, because STR did a perfectly good job of ruining their own race without any extra help from the FIA.

Came to write this but you've already nailed it. Fuss about nothing over the penalty, they made a mistake then rectified it in a way that I see is completely fair.

I also see the Helen Lovejoy's of the world getting their knickers in a twist because the stewards handed out an incorrect penalty, panicking that it will decide a championship when we've seen a mistake made once and then a completely appropriate fix to that incorrect punishment.

 

What's even more funny is that everyone could hear the radio conversation in which Kvyat asked if he should retake his original grid position and his race engineer confirmed that he should do that.

I suppose race control listened in and could have told Kvyat to stay at the back of the grid. Maybe it's the job of race control to inform the competitors of the rules and regulations during the race?

His engineer was correct as redreni said, unfortunately Kvyat was driving like my Nan and didn't manage to get past Alonso I believe it was to his original position, otherwise he would have been fine.

[Clatter]

Came to write this but you've already nailed it. Fuss about nothing over the penalty, they made a mistake then rectified it in a way that I see is completely fair.
I also see the Helen Lovejoy's of the world getting their knickers in a twist because the stewards handed out an incorrect penalty, panicking that it will decide a championship when we've seen a mistake made once and then a completely appropriate fix to that incorrect punishment.

His engineer was correct as redreni said, unfortunately Kvyat was driving like my Nan and didn't manage to get past Alonso I believe it was to his original position, otherwise he would have been fine.

So what would you be saying if they had mistakenly handed out a stop/go to someone, when the correct penalty should have been less? They wouldn't be able to correct that mistake. I don't think it should be ignored, and it's quite right that the stewards should be taken to task when they make mistakes like this. It's not like being a football referee where they have to make a quick decision on the spot, they have the luxory of taking their time to pore over the video and the rule book.

[Tsarwash]

Personally I think the competitors should be fully aware of the rules and not require external help.

Do you think they should build the car themselves as well ? It's a team sport and the rules are very complicated, to the point where even the people employed specifically to upkeep the rules get it wrong sometimes.

[Clatter]

Do you think they should build the car themselves as well ? It's a team sport and the rules are very complicated, to the point where even the people employed specifically to upkeep the rules get it wrong sometimes.

Let's not be silly about it. It is a team sport and different members of the team have different responsibilities. The driver should know the rules that pertain to him, and the rules around regaining your grid position are relatively simple.

Edited by Clatter, 12 June 2017 - 12:50.

[Alonsofan007]

I'm not following. I don't understand the 'but'

A stop go penalty consists of going through the pits and stopping for 10 seconds.

Kvyat did that, but seperatly. So the total time lost is the same.

He wasn't peanlised anymore than if the FIA had originally given him a stop go.

thats not right.

 

pit stop in canada is 15+3s

 

his supposed 10s stop n go penalty would've cost him 15+3+10s = 28s

 

actual ~15s(drive thru)+ 15s+3+10s = ~43s 

 

 

that nearly 15s more penalty.

[redreni]

So what would you be saying if they had mistakenly handed out a stop/go to someone, when the correct penalty should have been less? They wouldn't be able to correct that mistake. I don't think it should be ignored, and it's quite right that the stewards should be taken to task when they make mistakes like this. It's not like being a football referee where they have to make a quick decision on the spot, they have the luxory of taking their time to pore over the video and the rule book.

 

Yeah, agreed, that's something we should all be concerned about. It doesn't mean STR or Kvyat are justified in being indignant about this particular mistake, though, given that there was no detriment to them.

[ollebompa]

Maybe I am a bit slow here, but what does not re-establishing the original starting order mean? It must be different from overtaking under SC but I did not catch what the actual offence was.

 

Edit: I see now, it was for not retaking position fast enough after stalling at the start

Edited by ollebompa, 12 June 2017 - 12:56.

[redreni]

thats not right.

 

pit stop in canada is 15+3s

 

his supposed 10s stop n go penalty would've cost him 15+3+10s = 28s

 

actual ~15s(drive thru)+ 15s+3+10s = ~43s 

 

 

that nearly 15s more penalty.

 

That's pure confusion; you're including a (botched) pit stop.

 

They didn't have to stop if they didn't want to. They could have taken the 10s as a race time penalty i.e. 15s (drive through) plus 10s (race time penalty). It's also not the FIA's fault they screwed up a wheel change.

[Alonsofan007]

That's pure confusion; you're including a (botched) pit stop.

 

They didn't have to stop if they didn't want to. They could have taken the 10s as a race time penalty i.e. 15s (drive through) plus 10s (race time penalty). It's also not the FIA's fault they screwed up a wheel change.

 why would i include botched pit stop time ? i did not.

[RedBaron]

thats not right.

pit stop in canada is 15+3s

his supposed 10s stop n go penalty would've cost him 15+3+10s = 28s

actual ~15s(drive thru)+ 15s+3+10s = ~43s


that nearly 15s more penalty.

No.

He wasn't given a drive through and a 10 second stop go penalty.

He was given a drive through and a 10 second time penalty (added at the end of the race or added to any additional pitstops)

The choice to pit was Toro Rosso's. The pitlane time cannot be included, it wasn't required for the penalty.

Kvyat was given a drive through penalty + 10 second time penalty.

You are basing your math on him being given a drive through penalty and a 10 second stop go penalty.

That is not accurate.

Edited by RedBaron, 12 June 2017 - 13:08.

[Tsarwash]

So Kyvat was also handed out two penalty points for the offense of not being able to take his proper order in the pack before the safety car line. Which is the same amount of points Magnusson who was overtaking under the VSC. How does that work out ?

 

Kyvat's defence is that because the cars were all weaving so much, he found it too difficult to get back to his place before the line, but by that point it was too late to start from the pit lane. that's what Tost says anyhow. The initial rule seems to be very stupid and unnecessary in my opinion. Kyvat took his grid position safely and in good time, in my opinion.

[HeadFirst]

I would ban this clown from F1 immediately...

 

But which one? There are several.

[Marklar]

 why would i include botched pit stop time ? i did not.

 

A stop-and-go-penalty is 15-20 s driving through the pit lane plus standing 10 s on the box (overall 25-30 s)

 

A drive through penalty is 15-20 s. The time penalty are just additional 10 s, time loss is again 25-30 s. That you are driving again through the pit lane is no penalty beause you are allowed to do a pistop (unlike a DT or Stop-and-go) and if you are not doing it then you will simply get a time penalty. I think that's where you did a mistake.

[Alonsofan007]

A stop-and-go-penalty is 15-20 s driving through the pit lane plus standing 10 s on the box (overall 25-30 s)

 

A drive through penalty is 15-20 s. The time penalty are just additional 10 s, time loss is again 25-30 s. That you are driving again through the pit lane is no penalty beause you are allowed to do a pistop (unlike a DT or Stop-and-go) and if you are not doing it then you will simply get a time penalty. I think that's where you did a mistake.

that i get, but the post i was replying to said i added time TR screw-up at stops after which kvyat retired, i am saying i did not include that time in my original post.

[ANF]

His engineer was correct as redreni said, unfortunately Kvyat was driving like my Nan and didn't manage to get past Alonso I believe it was to his original position, otherwise he would have been fine.

Thanks, I thought he was supposed to stay at the back of the grid.

So he was supposed to re-establish the original starting order before reaching the first safety car line?
And the first safety car line is the safety car line at the end of the lap, close to the pit entry and the last chicane?
And Kvyat had already re-established the original starting order, ahead of Alonso, as Alonso entered the last chicane?
So he breached Article 36.8 by what? 50 metres? 100 metres?
And for that he was supposed to be given a 10-second stop-and-go penalty?

[jstrains]

But which one? There are several.

First of all the Russian torpedo, who shows zero driving and loads of arrogance

[Alonsofan007]

No.

He wasn't given a drive through and a 10 second stop go penalty.

He was given a drive through and a 10 second time penalty (added at the end of the race or added to any additional pitstops)

The choice to pit was Toro Rosso's. The pitlane time cannot be included, it wasn't required for the penalty.

Kvyat was given a drive through penalty + 10 second time penalty.

You are basing your math on him being given a drive through penalty and a 10 second stop go penalty.

That is not accurate.

ok i get it, all this while i was thinking stop and go = time penalty, apparently stop n go= drive thru+stop.

[Tsarwash]

Thanks, I thought he was supposed to stay at the back of the grid.

So he was supposed to re-establish the original starting order before reaching the first safety car line?
And the first safety car line is the safety car line at the end of the lap, close to the pit entry and the last chicane?
And Kvyat had already re-established the original starting order, ahead of Alonso, as Alonso entered the last chicane?
So he breached Article 36.8 by what? 50 metres? 100 metres?
And for that he was supposed to be given a 10-second stop-and-go penalty?

Yeah, that infringement is considered the same as overtaking during a VSC. The rules are incorrect.

[Bleu]

That's Kvyat's way of saying "I have got a message to Charlie." 

 

10s stop&go? Why such a harsh penalty? It is very rare to see such penalty in F1 nowadays.

 

Maybe the stewards forgot such penalty even existed any more, then someone reminded them. "Guys, read the rulebook. Remember the old days, when we had 10s stop&go - yeah, that's the right penalty this time!"

 

He started from 11th when he should have started from back of the grid. So there was cheating involved, in which case time penalty isn't enough.

 

Btw, Kvyat had not filled the tyre rule before he made that botched pit stop.

[HoldenRT]

I can't wait til Charlie Whiting is gone.  I don't know if it was Charlie Whiting specifically with this.. but there's been a culture of no accountability, inconsistency and cronyism for a very long time.  Just last race (or was it two) they were talking about having no penalties and letting them race, and yesterday was a penalty-a-thon.

 

And two penalty for the same crime?  What a joke.  STR made a mistake and were penalised.  The stewards then made a mistake.  Where is the stewards penalty for their mistake?