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McLaren Honda MCL32 part 5


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#51 4444

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:24

I think it's about time McLaren-Honda start threatening Mercedes for the win, otherwise we'll have another boring season ahead of us.  :stoned:

 

Honda propaganda minister, is that you?
 



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#52 4444

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:30

F1 needs more teams and more engine manufacturers.

 

Engine manufactures that can product quality engines.



#53 Flyhigh

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:49

I think McLaren's biggest problem is the looming Honda/Sauber arrangement - there is absolutely the possibility in the longer term of McLaren having just been workhorses for Honda, only to find themselves a customer Honda receiver with Sauber getting a works deal with a view to a buyout which is never going to happen with McLaren.  That would be the worst of all worlds. . . . it seems somewhat unlikely that Honda have the appetite for owning a team in F1 again now, but I don't think they'd say never.

I would love as a Mclaren fan for that to happen, while of course, Mclaren getting out of Honda. Honda seem to be pretty set in the way they want to do things, the way they want to approach F1, the most fair thing in that situation is just to take over the whole operations and do it as they please, damn, I would be very amused and it would be damn fun! 

What is not fun though is holding competent people, who are producing all the goods on their end to be very competitive hostages. 



#54 Flyhigh

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:57

Not possible. F1 needs more teams and more engine manufacturers. If Liberty was to work in the background to help McLaren work with Mercedes again, they are surely pushing Honda out of F1 and in the process closing doors for any other engine manufacturer to enter F1. Pretty damaging for the business. 

 

On a separate topic, I am not too sure about the options Alonso has for 2018. He clearly wants to win his third championship and has only 3 options outside of McLaren - Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull. I don't see Red Bull signing Alonso. So if Mercedes (Bottas out) or Ferrari (Kimi out) were to sign Alonso he will move else will stay with McLaren. He is getting paid huge money's which none of the other teams can afford to pay. Really hope Mercedes does sign him.

 

I dont see Renault being on top till 2020 so no point in joining Renault too.

F1 does not need unfit manufactures, who are not up to the standards at all. All the argument that Honda has ever had so far is well they bring $$ that´s it. If that´s case then come all in with a team, develop themselves and their approach because then they would really need to own up all the consequences, shouldering on partners with substandard equipment will just bring the partner down in exchange for money, which will most likely be the case with Sauber next year.  If they produce the type of engines they have or the last 3 years, they will be on the Hispania area easily, just struggling to make 107% and needing exemptions. F1 does not really need that. 



#55 baddog

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:00

I would love as a Mclaren fan for that to happen, while of course, Mclaren getting out of Honda. Honda seem to be pretty set in the way they want to do things, the way they want to approach F1, the most fair thing in that situation is just to take over the whole operations and do it as they please, damn, I would be very amused and it would be damn fun! 

What is not fun though is holding competent people, who are producing all the goods on their end to be very competitive hostages. 

 

You really do think Mclaren are some godly team making a perfect car only held back by the evil Honda dont you?

 

I mean I wish them well, but if they go to merc it could be a serious problem for some people to come to terms with reality when it is not all trophies and jam.



#56 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:07

You really do think Mclaren are some godly team making a perfect car only held back by the evil Honda dont you?

I mean I wish them well, but if they go to merc it could be a serious problem for some people to come to terms with reality when it is not all trophies and jam.

It may not be all Trophies and Jam but at least they may get points and be able to cover multiple GP's on the same PU, like it or not Honda is there main problem, weather or not some of the problems are caused by McLaren remain to be seen, but after 2.5 years Honda are still no where not even near Renault, never mind Mercedes and Ferrari!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 25 June 2017 - 07:07.


#57 baddog

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:24

It may not be all Trophies and Jam but at least they may get points and be able to cover multiple GP's on the same PU, like it or not Honda is there main problem, weather or not some of the problems are caused by McLaren remain to be seen, but after 2.5 years Honda are still no where not even near Renault, never mind Mercedes and Ferrari!

 

Mclaren have no interest in 'getting points' as a goal. None. Sure they would rather have points than none, but they will never sign up to anything that does not, in their eyes, see them competing for the WDC within a year or two. 

 

Honda has been a disaster. This year's engine is a complete rebuilt sure, but it is so far an unreserved failure. I still have hopes it will come through in the end but hey, we shall see.



#58 New Britain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:58

I think McLaren's biggest problem is the looming Honda/Sauber arrangement - there is absolutely the possibility in the longer term of McLaren having just been workhorses for Honda, only to find themselves a customer Honda receiver with Sauber getting a works deal with a view to a buyout which is never going to happen with McLaren.  That would be the worst of all worlds. . . . it seems somewhat unlikely that Honda have the appetite for owning a team in F1 again now, but I don't think they'd say never.

 

It is hard to imagine that the 10-year McLaren-Honda contract did not guarantee that McLaren would be the one and only "works team".



#59 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:00

Mclaren have no interest in 'getting points' as a goal. None. Sure they would rather have points than none, but they will never sign up to anything that does not, in their eyes, see them competing for the WDC within a year or two.

Honda has been a disaster. This year's engine is a complete rebuilt sure, but it is so far an unreserved failure. I still have hopes it will come through in the end but hey, we shall see.

That's all well and good but with ZERO points your get ZERO money and that limit your options so while that ideal worked when you had a income McLaren do NOT currently have!

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#60 New Britain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:12

Not possible. F1 needs more teams and more engine manufacturers. If Liberty was to work in the background to help McLaren work with Mercedes again, they are surely pushing Honda out of F1 and in the process closing doors for any other engine manufacturer to enter F1. Pretty damaging for the business. 

 

On a separate topic, I am not too sure about the options Alonso has for 2018. He clearly wants to win his third championship and has only 3 options outside of McLaren - Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull. I don't see Red Bull signing Alonso. So if Mercedes (Bottas out) or Ferrari (Kimi out) were to sign Alonso he will move else will stay with McLaren. He is getting paid huge money's which none of the other teams can afford to pay. Really hope Mercedes does sign him.

 

I dont see Renault being on top till 2020 so no point in joining Renault too.

 

If you're Mercedes, why would you change from Bottas to Alonso? Only one driver can win a race and, if on the tracks where your package is best you expect that to be Hamilton, Alonso would do no better than Bottas would do. Or, if Alonso did better than Hamilton, he'd be taking points off Hamilton which would reduce Hamilton's chances of the WDC which, again, only one driver can win. And at the same time that Mercedes would not be materially improving its likely points return in a race or season, it would be creating a potentially toxic combination of drivers soon after having lived through the Hamilton/Rosberg intra-team division. Now that team orders are legal, and the cars are pretty reliable, it makes more sense to have the best possible #1 driver and a very good but acquiescent #2 in the Barrichello/Massa mould.


Edited by New Britain, 25 June 2017 - 08:50.


#61 Pro4TLZZ

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:14

when are mercedes engine getting announced? personally i would like ferrari engines



#62 h4lf

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:15

That's all well and good but with ZERO points your get ZERO money and that limit your options so while that ideal worked when you had a income McLaren do NOT currently have!

 

Are you serious? McLaren have been in F1 for decades, I don't think a handful of points or prize money is a priority right now. They are playing to WIN, to dominate. Right now, that means developing the car, and the engine. It's a shame this year is a waste, but its a new concept, these things happen in engineering. The best we can hope for is for them to learn from their mistakes and come back strong (next year).



#63 New Britain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:17

That's all well and good but with ZERO points your get ZERO money and that limit your options so while that ideal worked when you had a income McLaren do NOT currently have!

Actually that is not correct. Money goes to each of the top ten teams. As there are currently only ten teams, they all get money. McLaren also get an additional payment for historic contributions.



#64 Quickshifter

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:21

Honda: 'Spec 3' engine could be worth 0.3s

 

https://www.motorspo...-tenths-922976/



#65 Pro4TLZZ

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:23

Honda: 'Spec 3' engine could be worth 0.3s

 

https://www.motorspo...-tenths-922976/

 

the gap is like 3 seconds, 0.3 will not help



#66 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:25

It may not be all Trophies and Jam but at least they may get points and be able to cover multiple GP's on the same PU, like it or not Honda is there main problem, 

 

McLaren signed up to this marriage.  :wave:

 

Now they want to divorce just like other unhappy marriage, that's also fine.



#67 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:26

Are you serious? McLaren have been in F1 for decades, I don't think a handful of points or prize money is a priority right now. They are playing to WIN, to dominate. 

 

So is Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. :up: :)



#68 Quickshifter

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:34

Honda will gain around another 4 tenths when they have their full spec 3 upgrade ready by Spa. So that makes around 7 tenths from the full Spec 3 upgrade.  The problem Honda are facing is that, forget Ferrari and Mercedes who are on an another planet, even Renault are not standing still who despite having no hardware update here have made a jump of 2 tenths according to Abiteboul. So that means Honda have made a tenth on Renault despite bringing an update. The engine war is not standing still and the target is always on the move. So unless Honda make twice the amount of progress as their rivals do they will not catch up.



#69 Rudex

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:44

Honda will gain around another 4 tenths when they have their full spec 3 upgrade ready by Spa. So that makes around 7 tenths from the full Spec 3 upgrade.  The problem Honda are facing is that, forget Ferrari and Mercedes who are on an another planet, even Renault are not standing still who despite having no hardware update here have made a jump of 2 tenths according to Abiteboul. So that means Honda have made a tenth on Renault despite bringing an update. The engine war is not standing still and the target is always on the move. So unless Honda make twice the amount of progress as their rivals do they will not catch up.

 

Full spec 3, would be around 35-40hp then, 15hp from v2.5 and 20-25hp for full upgrade v3. The problem is for power Mer 2016, maybe they need 20hp more yet. So for Spa maybe They will be around 50-60hp in race conditions. Very similar to last race in Abu Dhabi. The gap never cut. They need higher improvements in each new spec and input faster than the rest. The any positive thing is Mer and Ferrari jumps are short for this year.



#70 DeKnyff

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:51

Why can't Williams and McLaren be compared? McLaren without Honda funding and having to pay for its engines will have a similar budget to Williams. It won't be a threat for Mercedes itself.

McLaren average position in the WCC in the five previous years to Honda was 3rd and Williams' was 7th. Also, McLaren's budgets before Honda were substantially higher than Williams'. And in third place, McLaren's owners seem to have the resources to fund the team for a couple of transitional years if necessary.

 

In fact, McLaren with an underpowered Honda engine was matching Williams at the end of last year, imagine if they had a Mercedes engine on the back.


Edited by DeKnyff, 25 June 2017 - 09:21.


#71 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:55

If Honda could cut the gap to 40 to 50 HP, McLarenHonda can easily out perform midfield teams.

 

The annoying part to me is that because of Honda's new concept, I presume there are lots of opportunities for fuel and lubricant supplier to do the rest of the job to close the gap but unfortunately McLaren did an idiotic thing to let go such an exclusive competitive partner in MobilExxon.


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 25 June 2017 - 08:56.


#72 Joseki

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:01

Honda: 'Spec 3' engine could be worth 0.3s

https://www.motorspo...-tenths-922976/


Hasegawa clearly said that it's MORE than 2-3 tenths.

#73 DeKnyff

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:05

Not possible. F1 needs more teams and more engine manufacturers. If Liberty was to work in the background to help McLaren work with Mercedes again, they are surely pushing Honda out of F1 and in the process closing doors for any other engine manufacturer to enter F1. Pretty damaging for the business. 

 

[...]

 

What Formula 1 needs above all is top teams (like McLaren) and top drivers (like Alonso) fighting for wins and titles. This is a priority above keeping an engine supplier which is not up to expectations. In that sense, the Honda-Sauber deal is a good solution for everybody, because it keeps Honda inside Formula 1 while they are not competitive and allows McLaren to have a better engine. 



#74 DeKnyff

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:20

Hasegawa clearly said that it's MORE than 2-3 tenths.

 Yeah, but I don't know if we have to understand it as 3.5 tenths or "way above 2 or 3 tenths".



#75 Nova

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:21

I think McLaren's biggest problem is the looming Honda/Sauber arrangement - there is absolutely the possibility in the longer term of McLaren having just been workhorses for Honda, only to find themselves a customer Honda receiver with Sauber getting a works deal with a view to a buyout which is never going to happen with McLaren.  That would be the worst of all worlds. . . . it seems somewhat unlikely that Honda have the appetite for owning a team in F1 again now, but I don't think they'd say never.

 

McLaren have a better infrastructure, more and more qualified personnel, Sauber is not a threat.



#76 Talisman

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:25

McLaren average position in the WCC in the five previous years to Honda was 3rd and Williams' was 7th. Also, McLaren's budgets before Honda were substantially higher than Williams'. And in third place, McLaren's owners seem to have the resources to fund the team for a couple of transitional years if necessary.

 

In fact, McLaren with a underpowered Honda engine was matching Williams at the end of last year, imagine if they had a Mercedes engine on the back.

 

You've made a very simple error.  You're comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes but developed with Honda money against a Williams.  You should be comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes and developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams.  If things go badly wrong for McLaren you could end up comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes, developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams powered by a resurgent Honda with Honda money.  Either way you'd have to beat a Mercedes powered by Mercedes with Mercedes money, a Ferrari with a massive sponsorship and even bigger prize money share package and RBR with lavish Austrian drinks money.  Renault is a dark horse but doesn't look short of cash either.

 

As I said people keep ignoring the huge financial hole left by dumping Honda, some of that may be filled by investors but a lot of that would be covered by getting rid of staff and cutting development.  

 

Also lets look at McLaren's pre-Honda history.  A slow but steady decline in competitiveness but more importantly look at the partners that dumped Woking in that period.  Vodaphone, Mercedes and Hamilton for starters with a similar decrease in budget and manpower over the years only reversed by Honda money.  Why would such partners leave if McLaren was the Forza Inglese people assume it is?



#77 DeKnyff

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 09:49

You've made a very simple error.  You're comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes but developed with Honda money against a Williams.  You should be comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes and developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams.  If things go badly wrong for McLaren you could end up comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes, developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams powered by a resurgent Honda with Honda money.  Either way you'd have to beat a Mercedes powered by Mercedes with Mercedes money, a Ferrari with a massive sponsorship and even bigger prize money share package and RBR with lavish Austrian drinks money.  Renault is a dark horse but doesn't look short of cash either.

 

As I said people keep ignoring the huge financial hole left by dumping Honda, some of that may be filled by investors but a lot of that would be covered by getting rid of staff and cutting development.  

 

Also lets look at McLaren's pre-Honda history.  A slow but steady decline in competitiveness but more importantly look at the partners that dumped Woking in that period.  Vodaphone, Mercedes and Hamilton for starters with a similar decrease in budget and manpower over the years only reversed by Honda money.  Why would such partners leave if McLaren was the Forza Inglese people assume it is?

Well, Zak himself said they could assume the financial deficit. As you say, one of the competitors is "RBR with lavish Austrian drinks money", Mclaren could replicate that model, with the advantage that their non F1 activity is way more technological than Red Bull's. A large chunk of the Honda funding could be compensated by prize money and sponsoring, so what the Bahrainis shouldn't throw in as much money as Honda. McLaren decided to oust Ron Dennis last year and sure the process was neither easy, nor cheap, so I think it's safe to say the shareholders are ready to do what it takes to straighten the situation.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure McLaren was in a steady decline before Honda, they were WC in 2008, 2009 was an initial failure and then they recovered and achieved two wins, in 2010 and 2012 they fought for Championships until the end and in 2011 they were second best after untouchable Red Bulls. Agreed, in 2013 they took wrong development path and 2014 was obviously a transitional year and Mercedes was not going to help them a bit. That said, in both 2013 and 2014, which we see now as very bad years, they finished 5th, same than Williams 2016 and better than Williams current position in 2017.



#78 New Britain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:02

You've made a very simple error.  You're comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes but developed with Honda money against a Williams.  You should be comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes and developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams.  If things go badly wrong for McLaren you could end up comparing a McLaren powered by Mercedes, developed WITHOUT Honda money against a Williams powered by a resurgent Honda with Honda money.  Either way you'd have to beat a Mercedes powered by Mercedes with Mercedes money, a Ferrari with a massive sponsorship and even bigger prize money share package and RBR with lavish Austrian drinks money.  Renault is a dark horse but doesn't look short of cash either.

 

As I said people keep ignoring the huge financial hole left by dumping Honda, some of that may be filled by investors but a lot of that would be covered by getting rid of staff and cutting development.  

 

Also lets look at McLaren's pre-Honda history.  A slow but steady decline in competitiveness but more importantly look at the partners that dumped Woking in that period.  Vodaphone, Mercedes and Hamilton for starters with a similar decrease in budget and manpower over the years only reversed by Honda money.  Why would such partners leave if McLaren was the Forza Inglese people assume it is?

Many of your points are correct, but I must disagree with your last paragraph.

 

McLaren and Ferrari won their last world championships in 2008. From 2009 until the new PU formula was established in 2014, McLaren won 20 races and Ferrari won 10. What put the kibosh on McLaren was the new PU formula and its consequences, starting with Mercedes's deliberate undermining of McLaren in 2014.

 

Vodafone left because their 7-year contract was finished and they were done with Formula One. It's not like they changed teams, as they had done when they left Ferrari for McLaren.

 

Mercedes left because they wanted to buy McLaren but the McLaren shareholders declined.

 

Yes, Hamilton left, but that was a snap emotional decision made on the back of a mechanical failure whilst he was leading in Singapore in 2012 (and, we are told, after he had told McLaren a few days earlier that he would re-sign with them). Obviously it has turned out brilliantly for him, but not because he made a deep, studious analysis and concluded that McLaren would suffer a "slow but steady decline".



#79 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:16

If Honda could cut the gap to 40 to 50 HP, McLarenHonda can easily out perform midfield teams.

The annoying part to me is that because of Honda's new concept, I presume there are lots of opportunities for fuel and lubricant supplier to do the rest of the job to close the gap but unfortunately McLaren did an idiotic thing to let go such an exclusive competitive partner in MobilExxon.

Who said McLaren even had a choice? Maybe MobilExxon refused to renew there deal?

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#80 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:19

Many of your points are correct, but I must disagree with your last paragraph.

McLaren and Ferrari won their last world championships in 2008. From 2009 until the new PU formula was established in 2014, McLaren won 20 races and Ferrari won 10. What put the kibosh on McLaren was the new PU formula and its consequences, starting with Mercedes's deliberate undermining of McLaren in 2014.

Vodafone left because their 7-year contract was finished and they were done with Formula One. It's not like they changed teams, as they had done when they left Ferrari for McLaren.

Mercedes left because they wanted to buy McLaren but the McLaren shareholders declined.

Yes, Hamilton left, but that was a snap emotional decision made on the back of a mechanical failure whilst he was leading in Singapore in 2012 (and, we are told, after he had told McLaren a few days earlier that he would re-sign with them). Obviously it has turned out brilliantly for him, but not because he made a deep, studious analysis and concluded that McLaren would suffer a "slow but steady decline".

Or he was impressed with what he saw at Mercedes with Ross Brawn and the failed was the final nail in the Hamilton/McLaren relationship?

#81 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:26

Who said McLaren even had a choice? Maybe MobilExxon refused to renew there deal?

 

 

James Allen: Why did Mobil choose Red Bull over McLaren, when you’d been with McLaren for so many years?

 

David Tsurusaki, Motorsports Technology Manager at Exxon Mobil: "Good question. There were a lot of evaluations going on during that time. Obviously when you get to the end of a contract, the whole marketing piece of it comes into play: who are you going to work with, what are you going to do. It came to a point where the current management wanted to look at a complete evaluation so what are we looking at, what’s the rate of investment, what’s the best way to go, and we obviously tried to negotiate and do what we were doing with McLaren."

 

Definitely it would be even better to hear McLaren's explanation but IMO it wasn't the time to lose ExxonMobil no matter what. Later Renault grabbed works status of CastrolBP and McLaren received just a sticker of Castrol.


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 25 June 2017 - 10:31.


#82 Talisman

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:32

Well, Zak himself said they could assume the financial deficit. As you say, one of the competitors is "RBR with lavish Austrian drinks money", Mclaren could replicate that model, with the advantage that their non F1 activity is way more technological than Red Bull's. A large chunk of the Honda funding could be compensated by prize money and sponsoring, so what the Bahrainis shouldn't throw in as much money as Honda. McLaren decided to oust Ron Dennis last year and sure the process was neither easy, nor cheap, so I think it's safe to say the shareholders are ready to do what it takes to straighten the situation.

Anyway, I'm not sure McLaren was in a steady decline before Honda, they were WC in 2008, 2009 was an initial failure and then they recovered and achieved two wins, in 2010 and 2012 they fought for Championships until the end and in 2011 they were second best after untouchable Red Bulls. Agreed, in 2013 they took wrong development path and 2014 was obviously a transitional year and Mercedes was not going to help them a bit. That said, in both 2013 and 2014, which we see now as very bad years, they finished 5th, same than Williams 2016 and better than Williams current position in 2017.


Improving McLaren's finishing position to the upper midfield actually won't net the team that much more money especially once the engines are paid for. Sponsorship is the problem with the team not being able to find a replacement for vodaphone with a steadily declining portfolio before or with Honda. There is little to suggest McLaren will suddenly become more successful at this simply by going from a works to a customer deal even if competitiveness is improved.

#83 Talisman

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:34

Many of your points are correct, but I must disagree with your last paragraph.

McLaren and Ferrari won their last world championships in 2008. From 2009 until the new PU formula was established in 2014, McLaren won 20 races and Ferrari won 10. What put the kibosh on McLaren was the new PU formula and its consequences, starting with Mercedes's deliberate undermining of McLaren in 2014.

Vodafone left because their 7-year contract was finished and they were done with Formula One. It's not like they changed teams, as they had done when they left Ferrari for McLaren.

Mercedes left because they wanted to buy McLaren but the McLaren shareholders declined.

Yes, Hamilton left, but that was a snap emotional decision made on the back of a mechanical failure whilst he was leading in Singapore in 2012 (and, we are told, after he had told McLaren a few days earlier that he would re-sign with them). Obviously it has turned out brilliantly for him, but not because he made a deep, studious analysis and concluded that McLaren would suffer a "slow but steady decline".


Losing Vodaphone is one thing, not being able to find a replacement another. Mercedes was replaced by Honda so the lack of performance excepted they've done ok on that front. I don't think Lewis would have left Woking had he been convinced of the team's long term competitiveness. I was among those who laughed at his decision at the time but he clearly based his decision on more than a hunch and a surge of anger at a DNF.

#84 spacekid

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:54

I have a question for the Macca fans who feel that a swap to a Merc engine is a solution to the current woes - where honestly do you think the McLaren would place with a customer Mercedes engine? Ahead of the works Mercedes team? I find that unlikely. Ahead of Ferrari? Well they are pretty nip and tuck with the works Mercedes team so probably not. On level pegging with Red Bull? Maybe.

I think if McLaren move to a customer Merc engine deal the best outcome they can hope for is maybe battling with the Red Bulls. If the chassis and aero aren't as great as expected once run in low DF trim maybe mixing it with Williams and FI.

Does anyone honestly believe that Mac can win with a customer Mercedes engine? The current Honda is a disaster but I cant understand the excitement about being maybe 3rd or maybe 5ish best car. The Honda project has to come good, switching to Mercedes will be giving up in the way that Williams have imo.

#85 pizzalover

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:59

RBR are the outlier. Their soft energy drink cash means they can buy the best aero in order to mitigate not building their own engines. In these new PU regulations , the odd race win is the maximum they can achieve.

 

Nice try by McLaren, but hopeless preparation have sunk the dream of being competitive with Mercedes. They need a pathway to building their pwn PUs. Maybe a some sort of "understanding" with RBR would benefit both of them for the next set of rule changes.

 

In the mean time, Mac should lie in the bed they made and take Honda cash until they sort out their long term future. Switch to Mercedes would be a retrograde step. 



#86 Clatter

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:01

I have a question for the Macca fans who feel that a swap to a Merc engine is a solution to the current woes - where honestly do you think the McLaren would place with a customer Mercedes engine? Ahead of the works Mercedes team? I find that unlikely. Ahead of Ferrari? Well they are pretty nip and tuck with the works Mercedes team so probably not. On level pegging with Red Bull? Maybe.

I think if McLaren move to a customer Merc engine deal the best outcome they can hope for is maybe battling with the Red Bulls. If the chassis and aero aren't as great as expected once run in low DF trim maybe mixing it with Williams and FI.

Does anyone honestly believe that Mac can win with a customer Mercedes engine? The current Honda is a disaster but I cant understand the excitement about being maybe 3rd or maybe 5ish best car. The Honda project has to come good, switching to Mercedes will be giving up in the way that Williams have imo.

Too many only have short term aspirations and are happy with minor prizes.

#87 McLobby

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:17

Mclaren have no interest in 'getting points' as a goal. None. Sure they would rather have points than none, but they will never sign up to anything that does not, in their eyes, see them competing for the WDC within a year or two. 

 

Honda has been a disaster. This year's engine is a complete rebuilt sure, but it is so far an unreserved failure. I still have hopes it will come through in the end but hey, we shall see.

 

So if (when) they sign with Mercs and accept customer status instead of Honda's work status,  it would mean (by your saying) that Honda is totally incapable of competing with all others even ''within a year or two'', there is no garantee they'll ever be as good as others (even Renault), they massively overestimated their own abilities, and have ultimately failed all their targets they set when joined McLaren at 2013... being the laughing stock of the paddock all this time,also dragging McLaren into the abyss of failure..

 

when are mercedes engine getting announced? personally i would like ferrari engines

 

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

 

Who said McLaren even had a choice? Maybe MobilExxon refused to renew there deal?

 

As Zak said there are those sponsors that leave the sport all together, like vodafone and there are sponsors that leave specifically your team for another one because of uncompetitiveness like santanter, mobil etc. 

 

Why can't Williams and McLaren be compared? McLaren without Honda funding and having to pay for its engines will have a similar budget to Williams. It won't be a threat for Mercedes itself.

 

Since you think budget is everything, look at Honda's budget and their results! There... you have no argument now.



#88 baddog

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:22

So if (when) they sign with Mercs and accept customer status instead of Honda's work status,  it would mean (by your saying) that Honda is totally incapable of competing with all others even ''within a year or two''

 

Don't twist your own words into my mouth, it is unethical and kind of sleazy. I am saying if Mac do sign with Merc then either they think they can win a world championship with those engines (rightly or wrongly, wrongly in my opinion but so what), or the customer Merc is an interim and they have a plan for the following years which is not clear to us. It would say nothing about honda at all except that Mclaren have decided to seek greener grass on the other side of the fence.

 

Also, you seem to be so lost in your own position that you think I must be some kind of Honda fanboy. Im a fan of neither Honda nor Mac, I just want more competitive teams and engines in the sport for the good of us all, so hope this works out.



#89 HP

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:34

I think McLaren's biggest problem is the looming Honda/Sauber arrangement - there is absolutely the possibility in the longer term of McLaren having just been workhorses for Honda, only to find themselves a customer Honda receiver with Sauber getting a works deal with a view to a buyout which is never going to happen with McLaren.  That would be the worst of all worlds. . . . it seems somewhat unlikely that Honda have the appetite for owning a team in F1 again now, but I don't think they'd say never.

History would be revisited almost in reserve. Sauber lured Mercedes back into F1, and then switched to McLaren even at some stage considering taking over McLaren.



#90 pdac

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:38

That's all well and good but with ZERO points your get ZERO money and that limit your options so while that ideal worked when you had a income McLaren do NOT currently have!

 

Not true. To be clear, there are 3 payments they qualify for:

 

1. Column 1 - this is about a quarter of the pot divided equally between the top 10 teams - worth about $35m-$40m

2. Column 2 - this is the same size pot but is divided based on the performance of the team - this is where McLaren will start to lose out, but even 10th gets in the region of $15m

3. Constructors Championship Bonus Fund - basically a fixed payment to McLaren and a few other teams - worth about $30m to McLaren

 

So they will get at least $80m. The difference between 10th in the WCC and 9th is probably worth $5m or so. Not a huge improvement.



#91 DeKnyff

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:51

Losing Vodaphone is one thing, not being able to find a replacement another. Mercedes was replaced by Honda so the lack of performance excepted they've done ok on that front. I don't think Lewis would have left Woking had he been convinced of the team's long term competitiveness. I was among those who laughed at his decision at the time but he clearly based his decision on more than a hunch and a surge of anger at a DNF.

 

I have a question for the Macca fans who feel that a swap to a Merc engine is a solution to the current woes - where honestly do you think the McLaren would place with a customer Mercedes engine? Ahead of the works Mercedes team? I find that unlikely. Ahead of Ferrari? Well they are pretty nip and tuck with the works Mercedes team so probably not. On level pegging with Red Bull? Maybe.

I think if McLaren move to a customer Merc engine deal the best outcome they can hope for is maybe battling with the Red Bulls. If the chassis and aero aren't as great as expected once run in low DF trim maybe mixing it with Williams and FI.

Does anyone honestly believe that Mac can win with a customer Mercedes engine? The current Honda is a disaster but I cant understand the excitement about being maybe 3rd or maybe 5ish best car. The Honda project has to come good, switching to Mercedes will be giving up in the way that Williams have imo.

 

OK, a short term Mercedes deal is probably not a perfect solution.

 

So, what should McLaren do? To stay with Honda, praying for a magical improvement and knowing that most probably the engine will never be competitive under current rules? Which would mean losing Alonso, maybe Peter Prod and many other skilled engineers who can be poached from front grid teams. Also, losing the few remaining sponsors, as Zak very clearly said. And worse of all, accepting a back marker status for Mclaren, low midfield at best? Not sure that's what McLaren's owners will take.


Edited by DeKnyff, 25 June 2017 - 11:53.


#92 McLobby

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 11:54

Don't twist your own words into my mouth, it is unethical and kind of sleazy. I am saying if Mac do sign with Merc then either they think they can win a world championship with those engines (rightly or wrongly, wrongly in my opinion but so what), or the customer Merc is an interim and they have a plan for the following years which is not clear to us. It would say nothing about honda at all except that Mclaren have decided to seek greener grass on the other side of the fence.

 

I am not twisting anything... I know your pov and so do others, I just used your way of thinking to prove my point!  It's an intellectual tactic used since antiquity and it's neither ''unethical or sleazy''. So you don't have to be so defensive.

Are you still saying that switching to Merc after all this frustration, misery and uncompetitiveness that the Honda's pu have caused, would say/ mean absolutely nothing about Honda?

Ok if that's your opinion, but I think it would say a lot about Honda's incapability!

It means they don't expect Honda to be competitive any time soon, and they know Honda much better than me and you!

 

 

Also, you seem to be so lost in your own position that you think I must be some kind of Honda fanboy. Im a fan of neither Honda nor Mac, I just want more competitive teams and engines in the sport for the good of us all, so hope this works out.

 

If the shoe fits , wear it... lol. I never said anything personal to you, we are just discussing the situation of Honda, Mercedes and McLaren. You may assume I am lost in what I think, but you seem to be lost in your assumptions.



#93 rodlamas

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:08

Current Spec 3 Honda engine is still miles away from Mercedes latest 2016 engine.

Alonso was 3.5 seconds slower than Hamilton.

Let's say Mercedes gained a second in engine performance from 2016 latest spec to today's engine.

We are still 2.5 seconds behind. Is that 20-25bhp?

It's at least 70-75bhp. If not more than that. And current engine gap to Mercedes is more than 100bhp in qual.

And even more than that during the race due to the enormous amount of fuel saving we have to do.

#94 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:11

Sky Germany saying that they "heard" that deal with Merc is signed and will be announced in Silverstone



#95 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:20

Lloyd-Christmas-Cry-and-Gag-Dumb-and-Dum

 

Just to be clear, I'm sad  :D



#96 Pete_f1

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:22

I think one McLaren won't finish the race.

#97 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:23

Roll on Williams Honda.



#98 pdac

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:24

I think one McLaren won't finish the race.

 

Yeah, I hear those gearboxes can let go at any time.



#99 StevieRay

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:25

I'd be sad if they break up with Honda.

 

Scenario I would like to see is McLaren keeping Honda as engine partner but using Mercedes engines instead. Since McLaren will in any case be only customer of Merc engines, and I'd hate to see these painful and fruitless years giving us nothing.

 

Honda owes a lot to McLaren, the least they could do is buy Mercedes engines for them. Until they make anything decent enough to put into that McLaren chassis.



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#100 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 12:28

Sky Germany (edit: Tanja) saying that they "heard" that deal with Merc is signed and will be announced in Silverstone

 

Though in interview with Tanja, Niki denies McLaren even asked about an engine contract. He also says that there is no way Alonso will drive for Merc simply because they have no room and Ham is as good as extended for next year anyway (edit: I may have misunderstood - the interview was in context of Ham already having asked for contract extension, but maybe he is signed through next year anyway, and this was about 2019?)


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 June 2017 - 12:41.