53 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

I don't know if this has been raised before.  I couldn't find a previous discussion  - but given the search function . . . 

At Goodwood today, I noticed the 1952 Cummins diesel Indianapolis car had disc brakes.  Was this the first serious use of discs?  
As far as I know Jaguar didn't introduce Dunlop disc  brakes on the C-Type until 1953; and  Gordini only introduced the Messier discs in 1954.  That leaves BRM and the Thinwall Special Ferrari.  The BRM initially had Girling drums and later switched to Girling discs for the Mk 2 in 1952.  As far as I can see, Vandervell didn't fit Girling discs to the Thinwall until 1953.

Does anyone know for certain?

[Tim Murray]

According to this interesting article by Mike Lawrence in Pitpass, Halibrand caliper disc brakes were first used at Indianapolis in 1951, mainly to save weight:
 

Then there is the matter of disc brakes. The initial advantage of a disc brake is the dissipation of heat. The idea goes back to 1902 and Frederick William Lanchester who used copper pads on iron discs on Lanchester cars. Copper was chosen because of its ability to dissipate heat, Lanchester did not have a brake pad industry. Roads were then largely unsealed and the gunge from the roads caused an unacceptable rate of wear although the brakes were effective.

Different types were tried in aviation where the compactness and lightness of the unit was an important factor.

Jaguar and Dunlop tend to get the credit for developing the automotive disc brake in collaboration Stirling Moss drove a C-type fitted with Dunlop discs in the 1952 Mille Miglia though this was not widely reported at the time. Jaguar proved the case for caliper discs by finishing 1-2-4 at Le Mans in 1953 and would not allow Dunlop to supply anyone else which is why Aston Martin had to stick with drums until their supplier, Girling, developed their version.

A form of disc brake, however, was designed by the great Harry Miller for his 1938 Gulf-Miller Indycar. These did not use calipers, but other discs, a sort of clutch in reverse. A similar system was offered as an option by Chrysler on its Imperial model, 1949-53.

Postwar, small American company, Crosley, made cars with a four-cylinder ohc 722ccc engine which formed the basis of many a Class H special in SCCA racing. Crosley's Hot Shot model of 1949-50 was fitted Goodyear-Hawley 'spot' disc brakes, a spot brake was like putting your thumb on a vinyl record, These brakes tended to lock and were replaced by Bendix drums, but Crosley remains the first company to fit disc brakes to a production car.

Palmer spot discs, taken from light aircraft, were fitted to some Cooper 500cc cars and the rarely seen HRG Twin Cam. The late Alan Brown tested the HRG in period and spoke highly of it.

The first caliper disc brakes for cars were made, I believe, by Halibrand, the American outfit which became noted for its quick-change axle ratios and for pioneering alloy wheels in many classes of American racing. Cars fitted with Halibrand rear discs ran at Indianapolis in 1951. To be fair, these were primarily to save weight and brakes were not that important at the Brickyard. Halibrand had the same problem as Lanchester, which was the material for the pads.

Jaguar, however, does deserve the credit for proving the case for caliper disc brakes in 1953. It is one thing to slow and balance a car at Indianapolis, it is another to brake at the end of the Mulsanne Straight.

[2F-001]

There was a two-part film about the Cummins Kurtis Indy programme in Motorfilms Quarterly; can't recall if any mention - or claims - were made therein with regard to disc brakes, but the car's appearance at Goodwood was a prompt to re-watch it sometime soon...

[BRG]

I had  a good look at the Cummins car on Thursday and had exactly the same thought.  The Cummins guy I spoke to commented that Chris Craft that built the car were aircraft manufacturers and that maybe they brought the brakes from thier aircraft experience.  I also learnt of diesel cars running in the prewar period at Indy of which I had not previously been aware.

[Odseybod]

As an aside, this sort of discussion is why I still love TNF!

[Collombin]

Chris Craft that built the car

It must be the guy's accent- he meant Kurtis Kraft.

[Lee Nicolle]

Disc brakes were used on aircraft many years before they were on racecars. So the pad material had to be out there then. I suspect some of the same material was used in industry too for brake presses and the like.

Pure copper I would have thought would just adhere to the rotor when hot. The copper in DS11 used too.

Reputedly DS11 was made for industry before racing cars. You can still buy that material in sheets I believe, asbestos and all.

It appears the Americans utilised more aircraft spec stuff for race cars, many hotrodders/ racers were working in that industry.

As many will know the Halibrand quick change was based on Ford A and V8 diffs. I do not know when they started making them in aluminium but I suspect late 60s. For dirt oval and Indy cars which in those days were not so far apart in design.

I know people that built their own from V8 diffs, one said diff is still in use [and heavy!] in a classic Supermod today 50 years later.

In those days the Americans were way ahead of Europe in racecar development, the Europeans were running around in prehistoric underpowered cars, and raced them as well. Where the Yanks were in V8s, developing auto trannys, even turbocharging for the road and racing were using turbo Offys, OHV V8s, especially the Chevrolet, disc brakes, quick changes and seatbelts a decade or two before in racing

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 02 July 2017 - 00:01.

[eldougo]

Renault were the first to use disc brake on  production cars ,from what i lead to believe .

[fredeuce]

 

In those days the Americans were way ahead of Europe in racecar development, the Europeans were running around in prehistoric underpowered cars, and raced them as well. 

That's a very broad statement Lee which I don't consider to be very accurate.If you assume the time period to be the 50's then back then the Indy cars largely consisted of 255ci Offy producing around 420 horsepower. At the same time there was in Europe the Alfa 159 which took Fangio to his first world championship in 1951 consisted of a 1.5 litre supercharged engine producing in final form around 450bhp. This car was originally designed before the war. Also remember that Maserati won Indy in 1939 and 1940 . So much for American superiority. In the 60's the Coopers and the Lotus cars came to Indy. Their overall concept and design were much superior to the Indy roadsters with their beam axle and live rear axles that were prevalent for so long up to that time . The Americans were quick to follow. My essential point is that both the Europeans and Americans were doing different things, working with different rules and formulas. Advancements ebbed and flowed. Witness the demise of the Millers from the 20's to the "Junk formula" so-called by the American purists in the 30's. This type of comparison could continue with endless examples. I'm sure you see where I am coming from. Cheers, Fred

[Allan Lupton]

As I recall it, the early disc brakes used on aeroplanes were not of the caliper system but were effectively multi-plate clutches suitably adapted. The duty cycle of an aeroplane braking system is totally different from that of the automobile, racing or road, in that you have one "high energy" stop at a time, so a brake pack with a high thermal capacity does the job.

 

ETA aeroplane systems are still multi-layer packs albeit using rather different materials (well they were when I was last involved!).

Edited by Allan Lupton, 02 July 2017 - 08:53.

[Graham Clayton]

Turning the discussion 180 degrees, what was the last Formula 1 car/Indy 500 car that used drum brakes? Porsche were the last factory/works Formula 1 team to use drum brakes, but Carol de Beaufort ran ex-factory Porsche 718's in 1964 - were there any drum-braked Formula 1 cars in 1965 and beyond?

[Michael Ferner]

Chris Craft built boats, Kurtis-Kraft built the racing cars, but not the brakes. Early US disc brakes were indeed aircraft-derived, Goodyear-Hawley design, which is (I believe) the same as on the Crosley. Soon after, Ted Halibrand offered his own design, and by May 1953 (before Le Mans in June) Halibrand disc brakes were standard equipment at Indy, though there were still a number of older cars around with drums. Before the war, of course, there was Harry Miller with his "clutch-type" discs, originally designed for the 1936 Miller-Hibbard Indy car, and possibly for the stillborn production car of the same company.

What I don't really understand is the difference between spot disc brakes and caliper disc brakes - I always thought that were different names for the same thing!?

[Charlieman]

The Thinwall Special and Vanwall cars used disk brakes developed in conjunction with Goodyear Aviation. That'll be disk with a k, owing to their American origins. 

 

Gordini raced a 2.5 litre T16 at Albi in 1953. Does anyone know which type of brakes?

[B Squared]

I had  a good look at the Cummins car on Thursday and had exactly the same thought.  The Cummins guy I spoke to commented that Chris Craft that built the car were aircraft manufacturers and that maybe they brought the brakes from thier aircraft experience.  I also learnt of diesel cars running in the prewar period at Indy of which I had not previously been aware.

American boat builders since 1874:

http://www.chriscraft.com/

[BRG]

It must be the guy's accent- he meant Kurtis Kraft.

Doh!

[JtP2]

The first production vehicle fitted with disc brakes was a Daimler armoured car in WW2. It used Girling disc brakes, but can't find a photo of them. Anyone near Bovington?

Edited by JtP2, 03 July 2017 - 11:48.

[D-Type]

The first production vehicle fitted with disc brakes was a Daimler armoured car in WW2. It used Girling disc brakes, but can't find a photo of them. Anyone near Bovington?

Presumably  this was covered by the Official Secrets Act back then so Jaguar were able to claim the credit.

[JtP2]

Well there had to be a lot of serving personnel who were totally familiar with the vehicle. There was just under 3000 of them and in wide spread use.

[D-Type]

Well there had to be a lot of serving personnel who were totally familiar with the vehicle. There was just under 3000 of them and in wide spread use.

Weren't all serving personnel deemed to have signed the Act?  Mind you, those who were familiar with an armoured car's brakes were unlikely to be potential customers for new disc-braked Jaguars.

[JtP2]

Well I am quite sure the Wehrmacht were quite familiar with the vehicle and they didn't sign the Official Secrets act. But then the Barnes Wallis bouncing bomb was still covered by the OSA at the time of making the Dambusters, but was fully understood in Germany within days of the raid.

[BRG]

Weren't all serving personnel deemed to have signed the Act?

Never understood this.  I declined to sign the Act at work, on the grounds that it was already the law and already bound every British citizen, so signing it was entirely nugatory.  Security Section didn't agree though and after a suitably polite debate, I signed.  I still think they were wrong however.

[D-Type]

Never understood this.  I declined to sign the Act at work, on the grounds that it was already the law and already bound every British citizen, so signing it was entirely nugatory.  Security Section didn't agree though and after a suitably polite debate, I signed.  I still think they were wrong however.

According to Wikipedia (usual health warnings apply) "signing the Official Secrets Act" is meaningless as it is already the law, but its main function is to serve as a reminder to individuals. 

[Lee Nicolle]

According to Wikipedia (usual health warnings apply) "signing the Official Secrets Act" is meaningless as it is already the law, but its main function is to serve as a reminder to individuals. 

More than a few have faced Official Secrets Act charges and in effect disapeared for periods.

[Lee Nicolle]

As I recall it, the early disc brakes used on aeroplanes were not of the caliper system but were effectively multi-plate clutches suitably adapted. The duty cycle of an aeroplane braking system is totally different from that of the automobile, racing or road, in that you have one "high energy" stop at a time, so a brake pack with a high thermal capacity does the job.

 

ETA aeroplane systems are still multi-layer packs albeit using rather different materials (well they were when I was last involved!).

From what I understand depending on the size of the plane. Smaller planes at least have a package similar to a car, and not very large either.

Many older military planes had no brakes at all, hence the need for long airstrips!

[Lee Nicolle]

In reality I am surprised that the disc brake was not used well before, at least as a front brake. It is fairly simple and casting methods were available probably a hundred years ago.

In reality simpler than the drum brake, though does require a good deal more line pressure. The idea was there, look at thousands of bicycles. A mechanical disc brake

Or at least the thirties when hydraulic brakes were common.

[DanTra2858]

Just putting in my two bobs worth, at the Pearl Harbour Aircraft Museum they have a Zero that appears to have Disc Brakes also my 1955 push bike had front & rear disc brakes.
Caliper operater system with the edge of the wheel rim acting as the disc, so there you go.

[GeoffR]

Those sort of bicycle brakes were commonly referred to as rim brakes, and the rubber pads didn't last very long when the rim had a rolled edge instead of a flat one. My mountain bike has proper hydraulic disc brakes, which are also now appearing on road bikes.

[Daren W]

Hi The Bailey-designed RA/RW/TW Douglas racing motorcycles from 1923-25 had front disc brakes made by British Motor Cycle and Cycle Car Research Association check out this page www.douglasmotorcycles.net/index.php?topic=5077.0 Regards Daren

[Paul Parker]

I am fairly certain without checking that Moss raced a C type in 1952 with disc brakes, possibly at Goodwood.

[D-Type]

I am fairly certain without checking that Moss raced a C type in 1952 with disc brakes, possibly at Goodwood.

In My cars, my career he says the car in the Goodwood Easter Handicap had disc brakes.  Then, in All my races  he (or Alan Henry) says that his win in the Reims Sports Car Grand Prix on 29th June 1952 was the first win for a disc braked C-Type and the first win for a disc-braked car anywhere.  

[Allan Lupton]

In My cars, my career he says the car in the Goodwood Easter Handicap had disc brakes.  Then, in All my races  he (or Alan Henry) says that his win in the Reims Sports Car Grand Prix on 29th June 1952 was the first win for a disc braked C-Type and the first win for a disc-braked car anywhere.  

Since SCM was fourth in the First Easter Handicap (but making fastest lap) these two statements can both be true!

[Lee Nicolle]

Those sort of bicycle brakes were commonly referred to as rim brakes, and the rubber pads didn't last very long when the rim had a rolled edge instead of a flat one. My mountain bike has proper hydraulic disc brakes, which are also now appearing on road bikes.

When I was young about 50 plus years ago some bikes did have the rolled type rim, and yes putting a handbrake on the, was not ideal. Though 'racing' bikes all had flat edged rims for decades before as did all the bikes I built from junk! And even then we had brake compounds and finding a balance between 'bite' and wear was an issue. Especially delivering a 150 local newspapers every week.

I used Fibrax 269. Now why that is in my head I have no idea!! A bit like Ferodo DS11!

My 'modern' 10 speed bicycle hanging in the shed for about 2 decades never had as good a brakes. And these days too bloody dangerous to ride

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 05 July 2017 - 09:08.

[GeoffR]

My 'modern' 10 speed bicycle hanging in the shed for about 2 decades never had as good a brakes. 

Ha ha Lee, 2 decades old is far from 'modern' these days, given the evolution of bicycles in the last few years.

For around $10k you could get a carbon framed, disc braked 11 speed roadie that weighs less than 10kg!

But all that is probably totally OT regarding disc brakes on cars.

[Arjan de Roos]

Another if in Motor Racing come to think of it: If Ferrari had succeeded to make parts for aeroplanes during WWII, he might have thought out disc brakes himself.

[Charlieman]

For around $10k you could get a carbon framed, disc braked 11 speed roadie that weighs less than 10kg!

My steel framed Mercian (c.1981) weighs less than 10kg with 100% period components. My little old mum, 5' tall, once lifted it with her little finger.

 

One of the first things you study in the design bit of a mechanical engineering degree course are brakes. They are supposed to be fairly easy to understand. You start off with variants on "sprag brakes".

 

External brakes -- rim brakes, external drums, discs -- are exposed to the environment which reduces capability. Internal drum brakes are not exposed to the environment. They work well at moderate to low speed (relative velocity of drum at contact points) making them ideal for push bikes towing a trailer or even a 1957 Maserati 250F. Disc brakes work well at high to moderate speed. They tend to be a little abrupt when applied at low speed. 

 

On a push bike, a rim brake operates on a diameter of 700mm and a disc brake on 200mm. The relative velocity for a rim brake is therefore 3.5 times higher than for a disc, but it operates in a harsher environment. A further classic problem for bike brakes is flexibility. It's really hard to avoid bending loads in the calliper mechanism.

 

I'm sure that there are effective disc brake designs for push bikes, but it takes a lot of work to get there. Disc brakes on baby buggies -- how daft can you get.

[Paul Parker]

In My cars, my career he says the car in the Goodwood Easter Handicap had disc brakes.  Then, in All my races  he (or Alan Henry) says that his win in the Reims Sports Car Grand Prix on 29th June 1952 was the first win for a disc braked C-Type and the first win for a disc-braked car anywhere.  

 

I would go for Goodwood, not because I suggested it, but because it would have been an easy test before taking on a long distance race, perhaps they used them at Reims anyway.

 

I will try to find out.

[kayemod]

In My cars, my career he says the car in the Goodwood Easter Handicap had disc brakes.  Then, in All my races  he (or Alan Henry) says that his win in the Reims Sports Car Grand Prix on 29th June 1952 was the first win for a disc braked C-Type and the first win for a disc-braked car anywhere.  

 

Maybe he just left out the word "international", or being an Englishman, the word "foreign" for the Reims win.

 

As Paul says, it would have been sensible to try anything really new like this fairly close to home in case of unforseen problems.

[Tim Murray]

In My Cars, My Career he states (as Duncan noted) that the first use of disc brakes on the C-Type was in the Easter Handicap race at Goodwood (14th April). He then used a disc-braked car in the Mille Miglia (4th May) and again in the sports car race at the International Trophy meeting at Silverstone (10th May) which he won. If this is correct, this must pre-date Reims (29th June) as the first race win for a disc-braked Jaguar.

[vesy427]

Renault were the first to use disc brake on  production cars ,from what i lead to believe .

As far as I can remember Renault was the first car manufacturer to use discs brakes on all 4 wheels on the Renault 8 in 1963. Without any servo or assistance you had to push really hard on the pedal to have a decent deceleration.

In France Citroën was the first manufacturer to use disc brakes on a production car : the DS in 1955 on front wheels (inboard).

[312f1]

The Lancia Flaminia had 4 wheel disc brakes from 1960 onward at extra cost.

[Allan Lupton]

As far as I can remember Renault was the first car manufacturer to use discs brakes on all 4 wheels on the Renault 8 in 1963. Without any servo or assistance you had to push really hard on the pedal to have a decent deceleration.

In France Citroën was the first manufacturer to use disc brakes on a production car : the DS in 1955 on front wheels (inboard).

Well starting at 1963 and working backwards in time, the Daimler SP250 was in production from 1959-1963 and had (Girling) disc brakes all round. In 1958 the MGA Twin Cam had Dunlop disc brakes all round.

I think the Jaguar 2.4 (1955 on) and 3.4 (1957 on) (retrospectively called the Mark 1) had Dunlop disc brakes all round - may have only been an option on the 2.4 but essential for the 3.4.

From 1956 the Jensen 541 had Dunlop disc brakes all round.

So Renault was perhaps the first in France, or at least northern France, but not the first.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 05 July 2017 - 19:35.

[Geoff E]

I think the Jaguar 2.4 (1955 on) ... had Dunlop disc brakes all round - may have only been an option on the 2.4 but essential for the 3.4.

The Jaguar 2.4 tested in 1956 by Motor had drum brakes.

[D-Type]

My Jaguar history (Clausager) has:

XK120, XK140, Mk VII - drums

XK150 - optional from its introduction in 1957 but very few buyers opted for drums

2.4 / 3.4 Mk1 - optional from 1957 onwards.  

2.4 / 3.4 / 3.8 Mk2 - Standard from 1959 introduction

Mk IX - Standard from introduction in 1958

[Paul Parker]

In My Cars, My Career he states (as Duncan noted) that the first use of disc brakes on the C-Type was in the Easter Handicap race at Goodwood (14th April). He then used a disc-braked car in the Mille Miglia (4th May) and again in the sports car race at the International Trophy meeting at Silverstone (10th May) which he won. If this is correct, this must pre-date Reims (29th June) as the first race win for a disc-braked Jaguar.

 

What is interesting about this is that the public apparently believed that Le Mans 1953 was the first time Jaguar had raced with disc brakes, I haven't got any period Autosports, Motor Sport or other mags of the early 1950s, did they mention the use of disc brakes on C types in 1952?

[Roger Clark]

The earliest Autosport mention that I could find of disc brakes on the Jaguars was in the Le Mans preview.  The Autocar did say that Moss had discs at Goodwood but The Motor didn't.  Motor Sport (WB) mentioned disc brakes at the International Trophy.  I wonder whether there was an agreement to keep things quiet while discs were in the experimental stage.

 

The edition of Autosport that contains the Goodwood report also has a picture of Fangio testing the BRM with discs.  The V16 had started testing with discs in early 1952.  The thought occurs that they would have beaten Jaguar to the first race if they hadn't withdrawn from Turin.   Possibly not the first win though.

[Roger Clark]

The Thinwall Special and Vanwall cars used disk brakes developed in conjunction with Goodyear Aviation. That'll be disk with a k, owing to their American origins. 

 

Gordini raced a 2.5 litre T16 at Albi in 1953. Does anyone know which type of brakes?

I think the first race for a Gordon with discs was the 1954 Spanish Grand Prix.

[wenoopy]

I think the first race for a Gordon with discs was the 1954 Spanish Grand Prix.

This is confirmed in Motor Sport's "Racing Car Review" (by 'Jenks'). At the Spanish Grand Prix, Jean Behra drove a new 1955 model Gordini, which was apparently lighter and had a redesigned cylinder head, but was little faster. It  had French-made Messier disc brakes which were unusual in that they had twin diametrically opposed friction pads. Apparently they had been developed on Gordini's sports cars during the 1954 season. Ironically, Behra's reason for retirement was given as brake trouble. This was his last race for Gordini, as he had been signed for Maserati for 1955.

 

I gather these brakes were fitted to all their cars from 1955.

 

Stu Buchanan 

Edited by wenoopy, 07 July 2017 - 05:41.

[Ray Bell]

Diametrically opposed?

Does that mean one pad each side of the disc in two positions, or in opposite positions around the disc?

[wenoopy]

Diametrically opposed?

Does that mean one pad each side of the disc in two positions, or in opposite positions around the disc?

 

Yes . Two pairs of pads, one pair mounted ahead of the axle/hub and one mounted aft. The only photo I have is on page 67 of "Motor Sport" Racing Car Review By Denis Jenkinson (Grenville Publishing 1956) covering the 1955 Formula One Season. Perhaps there is something in the 'Motor Sport' archive. Messier are (now) an aerospace manufacturer, and in the 1950's were making disc brakes for aircraft.

 

Stu Buchanan 

[Ray Bell]

That same arrangement was used on the Mercedes-Benz 600 'Grosser' in the sixties...