22 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Positioned at the bottom of the slope just by the entrance to the collection area at the Festival, we were a mere handful of yards away from one end of the Ferrari display. The closest car to ours was Niki Lauda's 1974 F.1 car.

Cousin Peter gave it a thorough going over and came back eulogising about the beautifully crafted gear change gate, comparing it with our own, crude lever that simply sticks up from the gear change rod.

Just before we left for the final time on Sunday evening we chanced to have a chat with one of Hall & Hall's men - Andy, by name. Peter once again raised the matter of Ferrari's H gate, as he had numerous times throughout the weekend. He told many people to look at ours and then compare it to the Ferrari one.

However, Andy then informed us that Ferrari HAD to have a complex H gate because their gearbox was prone to selecting two gears at once whereas the good old DG 300 could not do that.

So sometimes, simple and crude equals easier and more efficient!

[Ray Bell]

They had a problem you didn't have to solve...

I recall Mercedes-Benz had some nicely crafted trickery on the W196 as well. And that Jim Clark got two gears at once at Monaco with the old ZF box.

[2F-001]

I'm not clear on which solution is being declared to be best (or simplest): a accurately-made gate for the lever is presumably simpler, and cheaper, than designing and making a decent gearbox...

[Ray Bell]

In reality, Tony, the mechanisms inside a gearbox to prevent them selecting two gears at once aren't complicated at all...

Some are simpler than others, of course, but they really present few difficulties.

[Lee Nicolle]

The H gated deal in  older Ferrari road cars seem to make shifting more difficult in my couple of rides in such. Not ideal for rapid shifting. The racecar ones? No idea. But I am of the KISS principle. Besides if not really needed it should be lighter!

[Michael Ferner]

Perhaps they applied KISS to the gearbox, rather than the gearshift. If Ray is right, then those mechanisms to prevent the selecting of two gears at once must've added to the overall weight and/or complexity of the gearbox - you don't leave something out "that isn't really complicated" for nothing.

[f1steveuk]

Plus Ferrari's of that period had interlocks, which prevented direct down changes from say 5th to 2nd, you had to go 5, 4, 3, 2. I recall Niki talking about this, which he said  he hated, but got used to it

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps it was the interlocks to which he referred?

[Jack-the-Lad]

Did Peter happen to get a picture of the Ferrari H gate?

[Barry Boor]

Easy answer - Peter doesn't take pictures.

[kevins]

There is this thread where the interlock is discussed and I posted a video of Jacques Villeneuve demonstrating it on his Father's '78 (I think) 312

http://forums.autosp...rbox-interlock/

[chr1s]

Plus Ferrari's of that period had interlocks, which prevented direct down changes from say 5th to 2nd, you had to go 5, 4, 3, 2. I recall Niki talking about this, which he said  he hated, but got used to it

There is stil some confusion around this, not helped by a Motorsport test of a 312T3. According to Lauda the interlock only activated on the 1st to 2nd gears. I.e. you had to select second befor first. Any othe gear could be selected, e.g. it was possible to go from fith straight to second. He even mentions in "For the record" that he accidentally selected second instead of fourth at Monaco in 1976. Wether the B3 was the same as the Transversal I don't know, and maybe the T3s and later models were different again

[Lee Nicolle]

Plus Ferrari's of that period had interlocks, which prevented direct down changes from say 5th to 2nd, you had to go 5, 4, 3, 2. I recall Niki talking about this, which he said  he hated, but got used to it

Sounds like sequential shifter or flappy paddles, you cannot go 5-3 or 4-2. I honestly do not believe that is ever beneficial and now with 7 speed gearboxes it must be a pain, coupled with the very short braking distances.

Call me  whatever but a proper well sorted H pattern is still the best. I know a lot of 'modern' drivers would struggle with such. Less hi tech more driver input. 

[Jack-the-Lad]

There is this thread where the interlock is discussed and I posted a video of Jacques Villeneuve demonstrating it on his Father's '78 (I think) 312
http://forums.autosp...rbox-interlock/

Thank you, Kevin.

[john aston]

Aesthetically it is peerless and it has of course been a feature of most , but not all , road going Ferraris until the paddleshift  enabled everybody to change gear as well as Niki Lauda. I have   only driven one Ferrari  and I am sure I spent more time looking where the lever should go than at the road . I dare say Lauda did not have this problem. 

[B Squared]

The H gated deal in  older Ferrari road cars seem to make shifting more difficult in my couple of rides in such. Not ideal for rapid shifting.

 
 

Aesthetically it is peerless and it has of course been a feature of most , but not all , road going Ferraris until the paddleshift  enabled everybody to change gear as well as Niki Lauda. I have   only driven one Ferrari  and I am sure I spent more time looking where the lever should go than at the road . I dare say Lauda did not have this problem.

I got seat time in my parents 365 GTB/4 and brother's 246 GT, plus a few other Ferraris of the era which had the H-pattern selector. If you had no confidence in your shift movement then it is easy to get distracted by the H-pattern as you look at it for a precise placement. Once you drive them a bit and have confidence in your instincts, it was as natural as any other gearbox shift.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I've had the good fortune to own four Ferraris with shift lever gates. They're actually quite satisfying to use once they've been mastered, which isn't difficult at all, really. Nowadays it isn't possible to purchase a current model Ferrari with a manual gearbox, gated shift or otherwise, which is truly a shame.

[chr1s]

A

 

 They're actually quite satisfying to use once they've been mastered,

And once they'd warmed up!

Also I thought it a shame that on later models, (355s perhaps?)  they moved the position of first gear to where it is on normal cars.

[Lee Nicolle]

A

 

And once they'd warmed up!

Also I thought it a shame that on later models, (355s perhaps?)  they moved the position of first gear to where it is on normal cars.

That I suspect where modern  synthetic gearoils would help a lot. Very little drag and makes changing cold as good as warm in most gearboxes. Plus added gear protection.

[jtremlett]

A

 

And once they'd warmed up!

Also I thought it a shame that on later models, (355s perhaps?)  they moved the position of first gear to where it is on normal cars.

 

355s onwards had six speeds so something had to happen.

 

I noticed that at the London Classic Car show back in February there was a 1960-ish Ferrari Dino front-engine F1 car and the gear pattern went 1, 4/5, 2/3.  Perhaps that's normal in such a car since you don't normally see anything to tell the gear shift pattern?

 

Anyway, wasn't the real point about Ferrari F1 gearboxes that they never broke?  I'm sure others with better memories than I will recall a Ferrari F1 gearbox failure (back in the days of manual changes, I mean, of course) but I can't think of one.  I do remember an interview with Eddie Cheever (by Nigel Roebuck?), who tested a T2 back in 1977, talking about the gearbox being a revelation and how it almost sucked the lever into the gear you wanted.

 

Jonathan

[chr1s]

355s onwards had six speeds so something had to happen.

 

I noticed that at the London Classic Car show back in February there was a 1960-ish Ferrari Dino front-engine F1 car and the gear pattern went 1, 4/5, 2/3.  Perhaps that's normal in such a car since you don't normally see anything to tell the gear shift pattern?

 

Anyway, wasn't the real point about Ferrari F1 gearboxes that they never broke?  I'm sure others with better memories than I will recall a Ferrari F1 gearbox failure (back in the days of manual changes, I mean, of course) but I can't think of one.  I do remember an interview with Eddie Cheever (by Nigel Roebuck?), who tested a T2 back in 1977, talking about the gearbox being a revelation and how it almost sucked the lever into the gear you wanted.

 

Jonathan

I recall reading somewhere that Carlos Reutemann said something similar about the gear change. I can't remember one ever breaking in a race but I do remeber DSJ (I think) mentioning in one of his race reports that Regazzoni's Ferrari  was having it's customary gear box change before the race!

[chr1s]

Just remembered Lauda suffered gear selection problems in the closing stages of the 1976 British Grand Prix, allowing Hunt to catch and pass him.

[Michael Ferner]

Swedish GP 1974, both Ferraris retired with gearbox failures - probably the only time this ever happened, and the last time a Ferrari gearbox failed in the last fifty years!?