22 replies to this topic

[Graveltrappen]

Seeing today Palmer being berated for being 0.8s slower than his team mate... I find F1 astonishing. It always amazes me these small margins and how they are seen to be huge. Obviously in F1 terms they are, but to drive around a circuit for a minute and a half and be 0.8 seconds either side of anyone is a feat to pull off itself. Try and count to 0.8 seconds, its tiny.

What's more amazing is when 2 teams from different countries can qualify within 0.1 seconds of each other with 1000's of different parts and different drivers. Truely amazing. You can't even count these tiny margins.

When the F1 cars cross the line at the end of the quali; the timing takes a while to update. Always wondered how accurate that can be, when the cars whizz over it so quickly.

[loki]

In racing, most any sort of competitive racing, 8/10ths is pretty big.  If you are in basically in the same equipment, same track, same conditions  beating you by 8/10ths is pretty decisive.

[Murdoch]

An F1 car can travel a long way in a second.

[William Hunt]

8/10ths is relatively big in these days but it wasn't always like that loki, in the 1980's differences of 2 seconds between team mates were not that uncommon although the 2nd driver would be performing pretty badly with such a gap but not uncommon

 

Nowadays the cars are far more reliable and much easier to drive close to the limit, they are much easier to drive in general

 

I suggest having a look at the 1986 season and compare the gap between Ayrton Senna & Johnny Dumfries at Lotus on the grid from race to race: often around 2 seconds.

Edited by William Hunt, 15 July 2017 - 21:26.

[AlcidioG]

Senna = all time great
Johnny Dumfries = also ran

Edited by AlcidioG, 15 July 2017 - 21:52.

[AlcidioG]

Hulkenberg = pretty good
Palmer = not so good

[maximilian]

.8 per lap means in the end, you're about a minute behind!

[sopa]

Seeing today Palmer being berated for being 0.8s slower than his team mate... I find F1 astonishing. It always amazes me these small margins and how they are seen to be huge. Obviously in F1 terms they are, but to drive around a circuit for a minute and a half and be 0.8 seconds either side of anyone is a feat to pull off itself. Try and count to 0.8 seconds, its tiny.

What's more amazing is when 2 teams from different countries can qualify within 0.1 seconds of each other with 1000's of different parts and different drivers. Truely amazing. You can't even count these tiny margins.

When the F1 cars cross the line at the end of the quali; the timing takes a while to update. Always wondered how accurate that can be, when the cars whizz over it so quickly.

 

The thing is that competition is fierce.

 

Yeah, put two guys on a track and if ones beats the other by 0.8 seconds, it doesn't look much over an almost 90-second-lap.

 

But now... there are not merely 2 guys racing. There are 20 of them. And I'd say the whole F1 field of drivers easily fits within 1 second per lap in terms of pace (except Palmer & Stroll on their worst days, but never mind).

 

Which means that... the top of the pile can be considered to be about 8 tenths faster than the bottom of the pile. If you are 8 tenths off the pace, it can be confidently concluded you are among the slowest drivers on the grid out of 20 competitors. And thus your position in the series can be seriously questioned.

 

8 tenths off is not just compared to your team-mate. You look out of your depth compared to the whole quality field. Yeah, there is not a direct comparison, because the rest of them are in different cars. But look at the team-mate battles. Usually there is something like 2, 3 or 4 tenths in it. 8 tenths is huge. 

 

F1 is considered to be the pinnacle of motorsports. So of course this means you should bring the very best out of drivers and finding those last few tenths is paramount.

 

Amateur drivers can be proud if they get within 8 tenths of world class drivers, but that's not the point. This is F1 and professional racers, who get paid Millions for their skills.

[Garndell]

Without Palmer having the same equipment as Hulkenberg any comparisons in this event are pointless or just pushing a rather distasteful agenda.

[AlcidioG]

Amateur drivers can be proud if they get within 8 tenths of world class drivers, but that's not the point. This is F1 and professional racers, who get paid Millions for their skills.

Well truth be told. Some are little more then amateur drivers paying millions for their drive

[William Hunt]

Senna = all time great
Johnny Dumfries = also ran

 

I certainly won't disagree with that but the story if far more complicated and nuanced

Dumfries never got testing time and he was a rookie so he needed a lot of testing, the team was operating like a 1 car team with 2 cars that year, the only reason that they ran Johnny was because they had a British sponsor (JPS) who demanded a British driver in the second car. They had initially wanted Derek Warwick but Senna gave his veto for that, he didn't want an established hungry driver like Derek next to him so they went for a rookie. The press and fans gave Johnny a really hard time in '86 because they blamed him for taking Warwick's seat but it was Senna who had denied Warwick (and Derek should consider himself lucky in the end because Dumfries was treated very badly at Lotus and driving as a second driver in a team led by Peter Warr was not a funny experience)

 

Johnny never got the updates that Senna got and never got access to the spare car, they also used him as a guinea pig to race with an experimental gearbox that was no good. Everything was 100% focussed on Senna.
In those circumstances he was never given a fair chance.
I will admit that Senna was from another planet and that Dumfries was an also ran (but so was virtually everyone compared to Senna) but he never got a fair chance and considering how amazing he was in F3 it's fair to suggest that he was better as his results show, in a different team or had he been given another year in F1 he might have become a solid midfielder. That Benetton kept Dumfries for many years as their test driver shows that they appreciated him a lot.

 

Nakajima actually got exactly the same treatment at Lotus as Johnny did and so did several others in the history of Lotus in fact (several in the 1970s).
It's safe to say that Lotus completely destroyed Dumfries' chance of having a F1 carreer.


 

Edited by William Hunt, 15 July 2017 - 23:59.

[loki]

8/10ths is relatively big in these days but it wasn't always like that loki, in the 1980's differences of 2 seconds between team mates were not that uncommon although the 2nd driver would be performing pretty badly with such a gap but not uncommon

 

Nowadays the cars are far more reliable and much easier to drive close to the limit, they are much easier to drive in general

 

I suggest having a look at the 1986 season and compare the gap between Ayrton Senna & Johnny Dumfries at Lotus on the grid from race to race: often around 2 seconds.

 

The intervals in racing in 2017 don't have anything to do with what it was like 35-40 years ago.  We also had people burned to death, death from trauma and many other tragic circumstances.  Things are different now and 8/10ths is an eon if you're at the top.  There are club races where the top of the pack is within a couple tenths of each other.

[turssi]

Seeing today Palmer being berated for being 0.8s slower than his team mate... I find F1 astonishing. It always amazes me these small margins and how they are seen to be huge. Obviously in F1 terms they are, but to drive around a circuit for a minute and a half and be 0.8 seconds either side of anyone is a feat to pull off itself. Try and count to 0.8 seconds, its tiny.

What's more amazing is when 2 teams from different countries can qualify within 0.1 seconds of each other with 1000's of different parts and different drivers. Truely amazing. You can't even count these tiny margins.

When the F1 cars cross the line at the end of the quali; the timing takes a while to update. Always wondered how accurate that can be, when the cars whizz over it so quickly.

Profissional sport is like that. The participants take it to the limit and if you compare the differences or margins to something like picking up your groceries at a store or driving home from work you notice they don't mean anything. But in sport they mean everything.

And it's not even fair. FIA can see the data and change tyre pressures or bring harder rubber if and when they want to tighten the competition.

[William Hunt]

... margins to something like picking up your groceries ...

 

my girlfriend can actually pick up the groceries 8 tenths quicker as me

what does that make of me?

[turssi]

my girlfriend can actually pick up the groceries 8 tenths quicker as me
what does that make of me?

If you're doing competitive grocery shopping then that makes you a total loser ;)

[HoldenRT]

Have you ever done any kind of racing, whether it be real life, or in sims or just regular computer games?  If you follow a car for a few laps and are losing 0.8 secs per lap, it's quite a large gap.  After 10 laps, he'd be out of sight depending on the track.  Even half a second is a lot. 

 

It depends on your perspective I guess.  But the higher up in competitive level of competition that you go.. the larger that the (small) gaps appear to be.

 

To use a basketball example, for someone who's never played just getting in a 3 point shot (22-25 feet from the basket) seems like a big deal.  For someone who plays regularly, they'll be impressed by 10 in a row but 5/10 isn't that big of a thing.  The pros can hit from 70-80 out of 100.  Some can even get up to 90/100.  And can have big streaks of 10, 20 or 30 in a row.  That's when standing on your own when practicing and being warmed up and in the flow.

 

Then you get into a game and shoot those shots in proper context with pressurised defense against you, and fatigue, and those same players that hit 80/100 in practice will hit 30-40 out of 100 in the game, if they are lucky.  The best will hit 45/100.  Pretty much no one can ever get over 50/100 for a season.  The difference between hitting 35 out of 100 and 45 out of 100 is the difference between being one of the best, or being one of the worst.

 

F1 drivers are the best in the world, and being within a tenth or two of each other is usually considered normal.  Being more than 3 tenths behind is bad, unless it's a one off like a setup problem or specific dislike of that track etc.  All humans have their ups and downs but to be considered competitive you really need to be within 3 tenths on a regular basis, with the hope of refining your technique and improving.

 

To go back to the basketball analogy.. in terms of how some people would be impressed just to see an average person hit a few 3 point shots in a row.. people who haven't raced much can be anywhere from 4-10 seconds away from someone who does.  As they improve, they'll usually get within 2 seconds or less.  But the closer they get, the harder it gets to make gains.

 

And by the time you are within a second, it becomes harder and harder to keep finding time.  And then again within half a second.  And on and on.  One of the coolest things about racing, especially in a qualifying lap is that there is no such thing as the perfect lap.. you can NEVER beat the track, and every corner is a compromise of entry speed, mid corner speed and exit speed.  If you gain somewhere, you will lose somewhere else.  In the end, it's all just a compromise and you just need to find the best way to balance all of those compromises for the biggest gain.

 

It's like trying to tippy toe towards a cliff, and trying to not fall off.  The closer you get to the edge, the harder it is to keep getting closer.  Once you get within a tenth or two, it becomes very difficult to make any gains at all.  The gains get smaller and smaller up until the point where they start becoming microscopic.

 

So it's natural that the best will always compress towards each other at the sharp end, with small margins separating them.  Especially in modern cars that are easier to drive, like William Hunt said above.  But 0.8 seconds is quite a long way away from that edge of the cliff.  It starts to get a lot harder once you get within 3 tenths.

 

I wish every F1 fan could race for one month in a proper simulator, they would appreciate the sport on a different level.  It's one of the biggest things that makes motorsports hard to relate to, compared to other sports like soccer or basketball, where it's easy to buy a ball and kick it around in the backyard and experience it for yourself.  Or to play it at school.

 

Driving on the limit on a race track is a wonderful sport, but for a lot of people it's not relatable.  And it's very physically technical.  Especially balancing the car midcorner and managing the weight transfer while at the same time and having the instinctual physical feel for it.  It's really a magical thing.  WW2 fighter pilots were very similar in terms of the art of controlling their machine with their body in such precise, and accurate ways.  Racing is 2D, in terms of up down, left right with 2 axis.  WW2 fighter pilots were in 3D with 3 axis.. and the best were freakish.  It might seem like a random example to bring up flying, but it's a very similar skillset.  Both requiring a lot of intelligence, while at the same time needing a lot of athleticism and instinctual feel and intuition for what they are doing.. and being 100% in the present moment while at the same time.. being physically at risk.. (needing big balls).

Edited by HoldenRT, 16 July 2017 - 02:48.

[ArrowsLivery]

.8 tenths at 250 kph is quite a lot, I don't feel like doing the math but it must be multiple meters.

[efuloni]

I certainly won't disagree with that but the story if far more complicated and nuanced

Dumfries never got testing time and he was a rookie so he needed a lot of testing, the team was operating like a 1 car team with 2 cars that year, the only reason that they ran Johnny was because they had a British sponsor (JPS) who demanded a British driver in the second car. They had initially wanted Derek Warwick but Senna gave his veto for that, he didn't want an established hungry driver like Derek next to him so they went for a rookie. The press and fans gave Johnny a really hard time in '86 because they blamed him for taking Warwick's seat but it was Senna who had denied Warwick (and Derek should consider himself lucky in the end because Dumfries was treated very badly at Lotus and driving as a second driver in a team led by Peter Warr was not a funny experience)

 

Johnny never got the updates that Senna got and never got access to the spare car, they also used him as a guinea pig to race with an experimental gearbox that was no good. Everything was 100% focussed on Senna.
In those circumstances he was never given a fair chance.
I will admit that Senna was from another planet and that Dumfries was an also ran (but so was virtually everyone compared to Senna) but he never got a fair chance and considering how amazing he was in F3 it's fair to suggest that he was better as his results show, in a different team or had he been given another year in F1 he might have become a solid midfielder. That Benetton kept Dumfries for many years as their test driver shows that they appreciated him a lot.

 

Nakajima actually got exactly the same treatment at Lotus as Johnny did and so did several others in the history of Lotus in fact (several in the 1970s).
It's safe to say that Lotus completely destroyed Dumfries' chance of having a F1 carreer.


 

 

You know where I heard a similar story? Alonso and Piquet at Renault.

[V8 Fireworks]

F1 margins are huge.  8 tenths would be the difference between 3rd and 20th position in V8 supercars.  Routinely Raikkonen or Vettel or whoever can be 5 tenths off their team mate but only 1 or 2 positions behind. 

[Cavalier53]

".8 tenths at 250 kph is quite a lot, I don't feel like doing the math but it must be multiple meters."

The maths are simple, 1 m/s is 3.6 kmh. So 0.8 sec is 55 meter at 250 kmh

[sopa]

my girlfriend can actually pick up the groceries 8 tenths quicker as me

what does that make of me?

 

Try to raise your game and cut it down to no more than 4 tenths. That would classify as a 'solid' performance.   

[KWSN - DSM]

Try to raise your game and cut it down to no more than 4 tenths. That would classify as a 'solid' performance.   

 

I crush Spousal Unit and everyone within the immediate social group in Super Market shopping - Key to a successful shopping trip is prepare, prepare, prepare - Know what you want to buy, shop the store left to right, do not enter ailes at all, park at the top, walk briskly to the exact item you want, go back and place in shopping cart.

 

[turssi]

I crush Spousal Unit and everyone within the immediate social group in Super Market shopping - Key to a successful shopping trip is prepare, prepare, prepare - Know what you want to buy, shop the store left to right, do not enter ailes at all, park at the top, walk briskly to the exact item you want, go back and place in shopping cart.

Just make sure no one discovers that active suspension your team installed on your sweet shopping cart!