46 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Hmmm - so what actually constitutes "New York City"?  The ePrix coverage of today's New York race - in which Sam Bird has finished first - maintains that he is the first racing driver ever to win in NYC.

 

Perhaps this is worth discussion?   

 

DCN

[RS2000]

Hmmm - so what actually constitutes "New York City"?

The five boroughs?

This ludicrous apology for motor sport was in Brooklyn wasn't it? (I saw a trailer and certainly would not admit to watching the actuality even if I had).

[FLB]

How many times did Bernie Eccclestone try to get something going in the area? Was 1983 the first attempt?

[Jim Thurman]

Off the top of my head, I'd have to take a guess and say it might have been Coney Island in the 00s...1900s.

[Jim Thurman]

But, it's ludicrous because in addition to early 1900s races, there were indoor midget races in New York City and both indoor midget and stock car races at the Kingsbridge Armory from the 40s into the 60s, at least one midget race on a board track in the Polo Grounds in 1948 and stock car racing on a paved oval at the Polo Grounds in the late 1950s.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 16 July 2017 - 01:55.

[fuzzi]

How about Tazio Nuvolari winning the Vanderbilt Cup Race on Roosevelt Field, Long Island, New York on 12 October 1936. While it was "not a road or circuit race in the accepted sense" according to Anthony Pritchard, it attracted an international field of GP cars, although Mercedes Benz and Auto Union did not enter first race, they did in 1936 and 1937. 

 

I caught a bit of the E-race on the box and that didn't look like a road or race circuit either.  

[Tim Murray]

The Vanderbilt Cup series began in 1904. My understanding is that all the Vanderbilt Cup races held on Long Island were staged in various locations in Nassau County, which is not part of New York City. The German teams only raced at the Roosevelt Raceway in 1937.

[Barry Boor]

I saw the first half a lap. That was enough. It was way worse than any other sort of motor racing I have ever seen.

Positively dreadful.

[Vitesse2]

1896 according to Saratoga Automobile Museum. Not completely within the five boroughs, but it did start and finish within the city. Looks to have been over about 60 miles.

 

The history of automobile racing in New York State goes back to 1896 when six cars competed in the state’s first auto race. The race covered the distance from New York City to Irvington-on-Hudson and back, averaging 10 miles per hour.

http://www.saratogaa...ng-in-new-york/

 

However, my suggestion would be the World's Fair Grand Prix on October 6th 1940. Organised by ARCA, it was a 75-minute race round the International Zone of the 1939-40 World's Fair site in Flushing Meadows, which is in the borough of Queens. So definitely within NYC rather than NY State! Won by Frank Griswold's Alfa Romeo tipo B - other competitors included Miles Collier in Briggs Cunningham's Bu-Merc, George Rand's Maserati V8RI, Dick Wharton's ex-Sommer Alfa Romeo 308C, Lem Ladd's Old Gray Mare Ford V8 special and Frank Alden's Delage 15S8.

[ensign14]

This ludicrous apology for motor sport was in Brooklyn wasn't it? (I saw a trailer and certainly would not admit to watching the actuality even if I had).

 

I think similar criticisms were made of the Paris-Rouen in 1894...

 

[Risil]

Think Jim Thurman alluded to it above, but there was midget racing at the Madison Square Garden Bowl in Queens in 1937.

 

So we've got:

 

The Bronx: Kingsbridge Armory

Brooklyn: Coney Island

Manhattan: The Polo Grounds
Queens: World's Fair (Flushing Meadows); Madison Square Garden Bowl
Staten Island: ???

 

Have any motor races been held at Staten Island or is that record still there for Sam Bird to claim?

[Lee Nicolle]

Formula E is not motorsport, it is a form of look at me! With electric GoKarts. Or Golf Karts.

Electric motors for limited use transport has been proven for a 100 years but now look at us we have electric racecars,,, that need two cars to complete a race.

The very little I have seen is very narrow tracks and wholesale bumping and crashing in cars that are a cross between a sports car and a Golf Kart!

[cpbell]

My complaints regarding Formula E is that the circuits are too narrow and have too many chicanes for cars that are (IIRC) as wide as a Formula 1 car, albeit shorter in wheelbase.  Combine that with a lack of power, and the usual cornering technique is rather reminiscent of archive footage of GP cars of the early '30s prior to the introduction of IFS and stiffer chassis designs - a series of short, harsh steering inputs and resultant twitchy response from the car.  By contast to the era of Varzi, however, it's often preceded by a snatching of the inside front under braking.  Sadly, on the straights, the artificially-limited power outputs are exposed rather harshly as the cars cease accelerating pretty shortly after exiting the preceding corner.  This less than aesthetically-pleasing spectacle is accompanied by a high-pitched sound from the electric motors and an irritating thumping soundtrack which, apparently, is played through the circuit PA system as well as on the TV coverage.

 

Suffice it to say, though I acknowledge that electric racing is the future, in its current form it really isn't my thing.

[Allen Brown]

No great surprise to find that few people here are interested in Formula E, this is after all a nostalgia forum, but I would argue that there are many forms of motor sport far more ludicrous. Drifting would be top of my list.

 

With the new cars slated for 2018, need to change cars mid-race will be eliminated.  One of the reasons they can race in places that other forms of motor sport cannot access, is that the cars are dramatically lighter and also have a limited top speed, so there aren't the same dangers with one going off the course.  We all know they could be made much more powerful if that's what was wanted.  

 

I agree with cpbell: it is the future; so better to try to influence the direction of its development than just insult it.  Losing some of the more stupid audience participation stuff, for example.

[Vitesse2]

I think similar criticisms were made of the Paris-Rouen in 1894...

 

A bit of research reveals that this 1896 'race' was apparently no more a race as we'd understand it today than Paris-Rouen was. The Encyclopedia of New York State by Peter R. Eisenstadt names it as the Cosmopolitan Race, while actually calling it a reliability trial. Held on Decoration (now Memorial) Day May 30th, and one-way only. Previous references on this forum seem to indicate that the 60 mile distance was perhaps a mistake perpetrated by Gerald Rose. There's also confusion about the number of starters - Rose says seven, but six seems correct - and finishers; there seems to be no doubt that Frank Duryea made it all the way, but he was probably the only one!

 

http://forums.autosp...y/#entry1950993

[HistoryFan]

I think there were some minor city races in the late 1890s, early 1900s. I have to check this on Cimorasti's book. I think there are some details about it in it.

[cpbell]

 

 

With the new cars slated for 2018, need to change cars mid-race will be eliminated. 

I knew that this development was coming, but was unaware that this was due next year.  That's the first positive step towards making Formula E a credible alternative to fossil fuel-based racing, but I think that some of the circuits in this year's chamionship are simply too twisty and narrow to provide quality racing.

[Michael Ferner]

All five boroughs have seen a fair share of motor racing over the years, Staten Island included (at the Dongan Hills Fairgrounds, for example, active throughout the teens and twenties).

The New York-to-Irvington event organized by the New York Cosmopolitan was a proper race, not a reliability trial, and it went to Irvington and back. It's true, it had only one classified finisher, but Duryea's brother also made the return trip, but arrived too late. 28 entries, 7 appeared but one DNS; four made it to Irvington.

[Doug Nye]

Any 24-hour racing then...?

 

DCN

[Jim Thurman]

There was also the Morris Park track in the Bronx c. 1907, etc., etc., etc.

 

Duryea would be the answer, but for the first Brighton Beach winner, that might be Harry Harkness. There were several races over short distances at the Brighton Beach oval in Coney Island on August 23, 1902. Harkness won a 10-mile "Free-for-all" event.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 16 July 2017 - 19:35.

[Jim Thurman]

Any 24-hour racing then...?

 

 

The 24 hour races at Brighton Beach, Coney Island came later. There was quite a bit of racing on the Brighton Beach oval on up through the early 1910s.

[Jim Thurman]

All five boroughs have seen a fair share of motor racing over the years, Staten Island included (at the Dongan Hills Fairgrounds, for example, active throughout the teens and twenties).

 

Plus, Weisglass Stadium, an oval that operated from the 40s through 1972.

[uechtel]

Maybe the oldest video footage?

[Alan Lewis]

I noticed in the second race coverage that Bob Varsha subtly amended the earlier claim to be "the first international race in New York City"...

 

APL

[BRG]

When I heard this claim made during the FE race, I wondered how long it would take TNF to demolish it!

 

I noticed in the second race coverage that Bob Varsha subtly amended the earlier claim to be "the first international race in New York City"...

 

APL

Doubtless responding to tweeted comments!  But given the comments in this thread, I don't think even that claim holds water.

 

And wasn't it a farce?  Scarcely more convincing than the World's Fair race in the Pathe footage above.

[Vitesse2]

Scarcely more convincing than the World's Fair race in the Pathe footage above.

While the Ivy Leaguers who made up much of the membership of ARCA were without doubt amateurs, don't make the mistake of thinking they weren't trying! It was a very tight and twisty circuit around the walkways of the exhibition site, not designed for any sort of car, let alone retired GP Alfas, which I doubt got out of third gear at any point. And as I mentioned Miles Collier above - he retired from the race after wrapping the Bu-Merc round a lamppost at some speed.

[Jim Thurman]

Maybe the oldest video footage?

 

Nope. Try this (despite the reversed film and ridiculous label).

 

The Sheepshead Bay Race Track board track should have also been mentioned, as it was only a short distance away in Brooklyn.

[Rob Semmeling]

Lots of minor ovals being mentioned here, but not the biggest one that existed within city limits, the Sheepshead Bay track in Brooklyn (1915-1919).

However, dismissing oval racing for a moment, the Formula E claim isn't that far off; the only road racing I can think of within the five boroughs were the obscure and one-off ARCA race at Flushing Meadows in 1940 that Richard already mentioned, and a 1953 sports car race at Floyd Bennett Field in Kings, which I think was also a one-off. I reckon the Formula E narrators may be forgiven for not knowing about these.

I think it's fair to say Sam Bird won the first international road race within New York City, which is probably what was meant.

Formula E offers decent enough racing, but the rediculously tight circuits, that seem designed purely to keep average speeds down, make it hard to watch. The location of the New York City ePrix - the ferry terminal in Brooklyn - wasn't exactly Big Apple glitter and glamour either, the nice views over Manhattan notwithstanding.

Edit: Jim beat me to Sheepshead Bay...

Edited by Rob Semmeling, 17 July 2017 - 18:27.

[BRG]

While the Ivy Leaguers who made up much of the membership of ARCA were without doubt amateurs, don't make the mistake of thinking they weren't trying!

 

I wasn't, any more than I thought the FE boys weren't trying. It was the courses that were farcical.  The Fairground film made me think of the oft-mooted London GP course taking in Admiralty Arch which some seem prepared to include in a modern GP.  Shades of Starkey's Bridge.

[Lee Nicolle]

Lots of minor ovals being mentioned here, but not the biggest one that existed within city limits, the Sheepshead Bay track in Brooklyn (1915-1919).

However, dismissing oval racing for a moment, the Formula E claim isn't that far off; the only road racing I can think of within the five boroughs were the obscure and one-off ARCA race at Flushing Meadows in 1940 that Richard already mentioned, and a 1953 sports car race at Floyd Bennett Field in Kings, which I think was also a one-off. I reckon the Formula E narrators may be forgiven for not knowing about these.

I think it's fair to say Sam Bird won the first international road race within New York City, which is probably what was meant.

Formula E offers decent enough racing, but the rediculously tight circuits, that seem designed purely to keep average speeds down, make it hard to watch. The location of the New York City ePrix - the ferry terminal in Brooklyn - wasn't exactly Big Apple glitter and glamour either, the nice views over Manhattan notwithstanding.

Edit: Jim beat me to Sheepshead Bay...

You cannot dismiss ovals. The claim was the first 'racing driver' to win in NY. 

Racing driver and formula Golf Cart do not compute! And the super narrow tracks are suited for Karts. And I feel there must be Kart tracks in greater NY?

[Barry Boor]

Of almost zero importance but if Sam Bird was or indeed wasn't the first winner.... etc etc etc.... it turns out he was the second too because he won again on Sunday.

[Stephen W]

Firstly most of Formula E races are in what appear to be car parks so I would contend they are not "road races".

 

Secondly I must echo comments made by others about how flipping narrow the tracks are. It is almost as if it is deliberate so as to trigger accidents!

 

Thirdly wouldn't it be better if they ran the events as two heats and were thus able to have twice as many starters?   

 

Fourthly why in heavens name should they have to "fuel save"? Makes a mockery of racing.   

 

Finally there is so much stuff and nonsense generated about Formula E that I find it difficult to believe anything the commentators say.   

[RCH]

I've been trying very hard to like Formula E but I can't! The circuits really are ridiculous, when I heard that there was a race at Monaco I thought that's better until I discovered half the circuit was missing, why? Will the cars not go uphill? Why can they not race on "proper" circuits? Can we expect something like this if the British GP ends up in London? On that subject I seem to recall reading years ago about a plan to run a race around Hyde Park. Wouldn't that be an ideal venue?

[Charlieman]

Why can they not race on "proper" circuits?

Donington Park is no longer the official pre-season test circuit for Formula E because it is a "proper" circuit . (And probably too hilly.)

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/126079

 

The concept of Formula E may not appeal to all of us but I've always thought it had merit. The rules are slowly changing and thankfully the mid-race car change will go away shortly. 

 

On the positive side:

* Rules were designed to keep costs down initially, with the tech regs relaxing a little each year.

* The cars become more like conventional single seaters each year.

* Formula E does not compete with other series for spectators.

* It is attractive to car manufacturers who have reduced their involvement in other categories.

* It may appeal to a new generation of racing fans who go on to watch more serious stuff.

[Charlieman]

Firstly most of Formula E races are in what appear to be car parks so I would contend they are not "road races".

 

Secondly I must echo comments made by others about how flipping narrow the tracks are. It is almost as if it is deliberate so as to trigger accidents!

I agree completely. The narrow tracks and consequential accidents unnecessarily increase the cost of racing. Or make the cars narrower with tyre widths more appropriate to power (and scarier given torque).

 

Fourthly why in heavens name should they have to "fuel save"? Makes a mockery of racing. 

 

We often associate fuel saving with endurance racing, ignoring when it happened in GP racing. Ferrari built 4.5 litre non-supercharged engines in 1949/50 onwards on the basis that fuel saving might win races. It had worked for Talbot-Lago in less important events.

 

There is nothing wrong with tyre saving either. I'd suggest the win by Stirling Moss at Monza in1959 was brilliantly calculated.

 

The problem with compulsory tyre saving, fuel saving, tyre change to a different compound etc is that it reduces the number of strategy options. It limits the opportunity of the driver to make a big difference.

[Darren Galpin]

Also Empire City in Yonkers, used from 1903. A road race was held in Staten Island on the 31st May 1902 - there were three fatalities to spectators in this event.

[Ray Bell]

It's not as if the World's Fair race was a secret, either...

I recall seeing film of it (different to the clip linked above) on a major film, maybe one of the Shell series? It was only brief, but it showed cars coming through the 'arches'.

[Jim Thurman]

I figured it was probably Mr. Varsha. He comes across as a very likeable fellow, but sometimes prone to over-enthusiastic statements. He grew up on Long Island, but I doubt he has any clue or knowledge about early New York City racing events. For that matter, I doubt many (any?) other announcers or commentators do either. When he started, he had what seemed to be near zero knowledge of racing, but learned, improved and embraced the sport. He was the lead voice on most U.S. F1 telecasts for something like 25 years.

 

Hardly the worst error or gaffe in history.

 

We now return you to old guys yelling at clouds 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 July 2017 - 20:12.

[robert dick]

Not exactly New York City - but not far away - an early electric racer driven by Riker in the road race between Springfield and Babylon, Long Island, April 1900 (report from Horseless Age/1900; photo from the Library of Congress):


 

[BRG]

Ah, progress!  Back in 1900, an electric racing car could only manage 50 miles, whereas in 2017, they can do.....erm, about 20 miles and then change to another car.

 

The electrophiles keep assuring us that range is not a problem and all will be OK after the great battery capacity leap forward that is coming any time now.  And had been for over a century, apparently!

[Jack-the-Lad]

.....as if being the first racing driver to win in NYC is worthy of some special note. I've been more impressed from the backs of several taxis I've ridden in against cross-town traffic......😜

[DCapps]

The June 1896 issue of The Horseless Age, pages 12 & 13, has a report of the Cosmopolitan Race.

 

It was held on Decoration Day, 30 May, and was from City Hall Park, where the offices of the magazine were located, close to City Hall, to Irvington-on-Hudson, the Ardsley Country Club, and return to City Hall..

 

There were six starters plus a seventh wagon, the Duryea that won in Chicago on Thanksgiving Day, that was solely there for exhibition and did not compete.

 

The rules for the race were provided in the April issue of The Horseless Age, pages 30 & 31.

 

Interestingly, the distance of the race is not mentioned...

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, the info about the actual race distance is quite confusing, generally involving multiples of 13 miles. Checking Google Maps, I think 52 miles should come at least close (and suggests, btw, that the same route can not be covered in much less time these days! )

[robert dick]

1896 Cosmopolitan race:

The route was from the New York office of the Cosmopolitan magazine, on City Hall Park, New York City, to the publication office of the Cosmopolitan at Irvington-on-the-Hudson and return, 2 x 26 miles = a total of 52 miles

- via Broadway to 23rd Street, then Fifth Avenue to 59th Street; via Central Park, Lenox Avenue, 125th Street and Broadway to Washington Bridge; then on Broadway to Yonkers where the course included five miles of asphalt pavements, Hastings and Dobbs Ferry to the Ardsley Country Club at Irvington.
 

[robert dick]

No connection to the early race in New York City - just comments from The Horseless Age, October 1899, concerning the accus of electric racers (Paris-Ostende and Jenatzy's Jamais Contente):


 

[BRG]

118 years on and people are saying pretty much the same things about electric vehicles.  Interesting comment about 'recent improvements in the storage cell' (battery capacity) which is the mantra that the elctrophiles continue to recite whenever challenged about range issues.  Improved batteries are coming, but when?

Edited by BRG, 01 August 2017 - 17:47.

[Michael Ferner]

No doubt as soon as gasoline and diesel engines are starting to get banned from major cities, so probably within the next year or so. I'm surprised about the negativity that still pervades whenever electric vehicles are mentioned - surely you must realize that this will be the only form of automobilism left in ten, twenty years from now!?!