3460 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Please carry on the Ferrari technical discussion in here. Dabash kindly provided a link to a Mark Hughes article just at the end of the previous thread so their post is quoted below:
 

Interesting article from Mark Hughes  about the Mercedes and Ferrari and the subsequent FIA rulings and how it has affected both cars.
 
Link

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

First!

[VolvoT5]

I notice that Pirelli have come out with the same old BS story about the tyre failure being caused by external damage.  So many tyre failures for Ferrari (and other teams) over the last few seasons and yet it is never the fault of the tyre  

 

Hungary should suit the car and both drivers are pretty solid around this circuit....  so does anyone else think if this weekend is bad that Ferrari may just start to implode?   I get the feeling everyone is quite tense already, what with the FIA removing some of our toys and Mercedes appearing to step up a level.  

Edited by VolvoT5, 26 July 2017 - 18:22.

[Jerem]

Hungary should suit the car and both drivers are pretty solid around this circuit....  so does anyone else think if this weekend is bad that Ferrari may just start to implode?   I get the feeling everyone is quite tense already, what with the FIA removing some of our toys and Mercedes appearing to step up a level.  

I agree it should be a make-or-break weekend for Ferrari. The track should suit them better than the last few ones, so if they don't win the race (or at least put up a real fight for the win) it will be game over for this year.

[anyeis]

http://www.auto-moto...l-12204445.html

 

I dont think Silverstone was winnable even if FIA had done nothing. Mercedes in medium downforce tracks have an advantage. The floor generates more downforce and not much drag from wings. Pirelli helping with high pressures.

[PilotPlant91]

If merc still hold the kind of pace advantage in silverstone over us in Hungary....we should just say goodbye to championship battle.

[VolvoT5]

If merc still hold the kind of pace advantage in silverstone over us in Hungary....we should just say goodbye to championship battle.

This is my feeling as well.  

 

Both drivers have come in for a lot of criticism this year for different reasons... however I believe both Seb and Kimi are driving really well and getting the maximum out of the car most of the time... so if they can't fight for a win at a track that suits the car what hope is there for some of the other weaker circuits coming up.

 

Ferrari can't rely on the brilliance of 1 driver to carry the team for a whole season... but where have we heard that said before? 

[nemanja]

Well, tire pressures are way lower for this race so we could get the real picture. It is true that only Merc works with crazy high tire pressure.

Edited by nemanja, 27 July 2017 - 14:16.

[Ferrari2183]

Well, tire pressures are way lower for this race so we could get real picture. It is true that only Merc works with crazy high tire pressure.

Where do you get the tyre pressure info?

[jameshunt7]

The article made it clear that Merc, before the season began, had their toys (hydraulic heave) taken away leading to them underperforming (big words) at the beginning of the season.  But because they do well during in season development they seem to have everything going their way again.

 

Ferrari, on the other hand, made the best of their toys (oil burning?, flexi floor) from the start of the season but was taken a few races ago leading to them struggling eversince.

 

In short, it all goes down to Ferrari's in season development. Which, I think everyone here will agree, is their weakest trait. C'mon Ferrari! 

Edited by jameshunt7, 27 July 2017 - 09:19.

[oetzi]

If all that is true, then Mercedes took 6 months or so to fix their issues. Why expect Ferrari to do the same in a few weeks?

[Yoshi]

Well, tire pressures are way lower for this race so we could get real picture. It is true that only Merc works with crazy high tire pressure.

 

It has been reported several times from AMuS that Mercedes is able to get more out of the tyres with high tire pressure than all the other teams.

Lower pressure helps every team, but so far it was the case that it helped Ferrari & Red Bull a bit more.

Don't know if that's still the case as Mercedes made some good steps in this area since Monaco - we will find it out this weekend. 

[nemanja]

Where do you get the tyre pressure info?

http://www.grandprix...n-grand-prix-2/

 

18.5 psi front and 17.5 psi rear. That is way lower thatn Silverstone.

Edited by nemanja, 27 July 2017 - 14:12.

[nemanja]

It has been reported several times from AMuS that Mercedes is able to get more out of the tyres with high tire pressure than all the other teams.

Lower pressure helps every team, but so far it was the case that it helped Ferrari & Red Bull a bit more.

Don't know if that's still the case as Mercedes made some good steps in this area since Monaco - we will find it out this weekend. 

I still think Merc will be faster car during the weekend but margins will be much, much smaller.

[Claudiu]

Vettel said in the press conference that Ferrari should have some new bits on the car so let's keep an eye once the car's images pop up...

[nemanja]

http://www.f1analisi...ow.html?refresh

 

Some PU information.

[Claudiu]

http://www.f1analisi...ow.html?refresh

 

Some PU information.

 

So Ferrari is again down on power compared to Mercedes (the article mentions a 20 hp deficit) ... kind of hard to believe that you can gain so much just by burning oil... when usually a good engine iteration gives you around 10-20 Hp max.

Not sure how much of that article is fact and how much is fiction... it could be accurate for all I know...

[xtremeclock]

http://www.f1technic...25969&start=960

 

 

 

[MastaKink]

So Ferrari is again down on power compared to Mercedes (the article mentions a 20 hp deficit) ... kind of hard to believe that you can gain so much just by burning oil... when usually a good engine iteration gives you around 10-20 Hp max.

Not sure how much of that article is fact and how much is fiction... it could be accurate for all I know...

 

That amount fits with what the first rumours about Mercedes gains burning oil a few years ago were saying.(15-20bhp IIRC).

[Claudiu]

That amount fits with what the first rumours about Mercedes gains burning oil a few years ago were saying.(15-20bhp IIRC).

 

The only problem with rumors is that most of them are just that... rumors... that's why I am a bit skeptical when I see these kind of fixed figures, but as I said in my original post it could well be true for all I know...

I think Monza should definitely offer a better picture since most of the team will run at minimum down-force levels so the engine should make the difference.

Edited by Claudiu, 27 July 2017 - 16:54.

[nemanja]

The only problem with rumors is that most of them are just that... rumors... that's why I am a bit skeptical when I see these kind of fixed figures, but as I said in my original post it could well be true for all I know...

I think Monza should definitely offer a better picture since most of the team will run at minimum down-force levels so the engine should make the difference.

If you read the article carefully you could see that flexy floor ban is leading to much problems and compromises Ferrari aero concept. Besides, it is not hard to see everything, especially if you compare races before and after Montreal. 

[Claudiu]

Think we've seen this during Canada's Thursday's pre-practice sessions but it was never raced before...

Wonder if it's really some sort of aero appendices at the back or some optical illusion with those two black wings bellowing to something else... maybe some sort of supporting mechanism attached to the rear cover of the car?

They don't seem to be visible in any other shoots of our car.

 

Edited by Claudiu, 27 July 2017 - 20:15.

[PilotPlant91]

 

 

New Monkey Seat / Rear Wing? (From F1technical forum)

[Whiz]

Still early days, but I doubt we'll have a Monaco 2.0.

 

RedBull is pushing hard and Merc(hamilton) is strong like always. 

[sourav1480]

Still early days, but I doubt we'll have a Monaco 2.0.

 

RedBull is pushing hard and Merc(hamilton) is strong like always. 

Unfortunately looks like that. Our development till now has been utterly disappointing   

[Vesuvius]

I wouldn't count us out yet. Ferrari were close and tomorrow Ferrari will get more out of their PU, as we could see we were quite a bit slower in top speeds (even slower than Red Bull duo). Should be a close fight, unless Lewis makes a miracle lap.

[CC2650]

It's all wide open, let's see tomorrow.

Drivers interviews havent been particurarly exiting, it seems both of them went better without the new floor, even if Seb answered "si" when Stella Bruno asked if it is going to be used tomorrow.

[Claudiu]

Maria Binnotto confirmed (during the press conference) that all turbos were fixed (on reliability grounds) and are running well, and that they are all available in the pool so that plan is to finish the season without taking penalties. 

Edited by Claudiu, 28 July 2017 - 16:52.

[CC2650]

I think it's an important weekend not just on technical side but for Sebastian too. He needs to prove he has that something more that helps to win in a tight situation like this, with the 3 top cars pretty on the same level

[xtremeclock]

Maria Binnotto confirmed (during the press conference) that all turbos were fixed (on reliability grounds) and are running well, and that they are all available in the pool so that plan is to finish the season without taking penalties. 

 

Great news, so the article from a couple of months ago (AMuS) was right, the FIA allowed Ferrari to fix all their turbos.

[EthanM]

It has been reported several times from AMuS that Mercedes is able to get more out of the tyres with high tire pressure than all the other teams.

Lower pressure helps every team, but so far it was the case that it helped Ferrari & Red Bull a bit more.

Don't know if that's still the case as Mercedes made some good steps in this area since Monaco - we will find it out this weekend. 

 

It's not that they 'get more out the tyres'

 

Mercedes is much longer car so has more floor area. So their design favors underbody aero. Underbody aero is awesome, since it doesn't add to the car's drag, however to generate consistent underbody df you need a stable car. Pitch and yaw kills underbody aero, think back to the skirt F1 cars which were basically running bricks for suspension elements. Anyway, Mercedes have their trick suspension that takes care of getting rid of pitch and yaw to keep the car stable and the floor delivering (more) downforce. When the system had its gremlins they basically had to run the car incredibly stiff (think back to the first few races of the season) to keep the floor performing, which hindered them in other areas. High tyre pressures basically 'forced' the rest of the field to run 'stiffer' then they had to (keep in mind tyre squash etc are a big if not the biggest part of an F1 cars 'suspension' travel) so also pay the same penalties, without getting the benefits of the bigger floor area Mercedes had and the added downforce.

 

My understanding is their trick suspension is fixed now so they are less reliant on high tyre pressures slowing everybody else down to keep Mercedes competitive. For sure in a high speed track they 'help' Mercedes more than they help everybody else, but I don't think Mercedes rely on them anymore.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Maria Binnotto confirmed (during the press conference) that all turbos were fixed (on reliability grounds) and are running well, and that they are all available in the pool so that plan is to finish the season without taking penalties. 

I thought Rosa Arrivabene confirmed it as well previously.

[Vesuvius]

I thought Rosa Arrivabene confirmed it as well previously.

And Kimi did as well say, that they can use used ones.

[Huffer]

Great news, so the article from a couple of months ago (AMuS) was right, the FIA allowed Ferrari to fix all their turbos.

 

Assuming that I'm understanding this correctly: that Ferrari have been allowed to fix turbos that they have already used.

 

How the hell is that even allowed? If the turbos have reliability issues, then they just have to live with them either blowing up or take penalties - just like any other team. How does this look like anything other that "Ferrari International Assistance"? How in any way, can anybody justify waiving the rules for Ferrari for any other reason than "because it's Ferrari"?

Edited by Huffer, 28 July 2017 - 21:17.

[xtremeclock]

Assuming that I'm understanding this correctly: that Ferrari have been allowed to fix turbos that they have already used.

 

How the hell is that even allowed? If the turbos have reliability issues, then they just have to live with them either blowing up or take penalties - just like any other team. How does this look like anything other that "Ferrari International Assistance"? How in any way, can anybody justify waiving the rules for Ferrari for any other reason than "because it's Ferrari"?

 

Mercedes in the past was also allowed to perform some reliability fixes...the same can be said for Renault (2014).

 

But apparently its easier to invoke the classic "Ferrari International Assistance" ...

[MastaKink]

Mercedes in the past was also allowed to perform some reliability fixes...the same can be said for Renault (2014).

 

But apparently its easier to invoke the classic "Ferrari International Assistance" ...

 

To used components?. Source?.

 

Can't say I've heard of that before to be honest. Surely McHonda can go back and fix all their old Mgu-h's then with a reliability fix?.

[Huffer]

Mercedes in the past was also allowed to perform some reliability fixes...the same can be said for Renault (2014).

 

But apparently its easier to invoke the classic "Ferrari International Assistance" ...

 

But were those used components? Or was it simply using tokens to apply fixes to new components that had not been cycled yet?

 

Because I have to be honest; this is the first I've heard of already used components being allowed to be modified / fixed. If Ferrari can do this, then perhaps Merc should have been (and should be) allowed to open up their new spec gearboxes after a couple of races and replace the bearing on "reliability" grounds. 

[MastaKink]

You can ask for a reliability upgrade on current and future components of course so it must be the FIA are viewing all the used Turbo's in Ferrari's pool as current.

 

That's the bit I've never heard of happening before but it's rare for teams to stockpile or rotate parts so far in these regs because of future development would be out of the question without penalties so maybe it's just never reared it's head before but Ferrari knew they had no performance upgrades coming from the Turbo this year so decided to do it this way instead.

 

Honda should be badgering the FIA as we speak for backdated reliability fixes to their h's bearings though, I don't know why they would be denied unless I'm having a brain fart and missing something obvious.

[xtremeclock]

But were those used components? Or was it simply using tokens to apply fixes to new components that had not been cycled yet?

 

Because I have to be honest; this is the first I've heard of already used components being allowed to be modified / fixed. If Ferrari can do this, then perhaps Merc should have been (and should be) allowed to open up their new spec gearboxes after a couple of races and replace the bearing on "reliability" grounds. 

 

Gearbox is a different story.....it needs to last a specific amount of races.

 

We're talking about the engine, Ferrari lost most of their Turbos after a couple of races, thats not normal, a reliability fix was presented to FIA and they approved it, there is nothing extraordinary here, reliability fixes are allowed if they don't increase performance.

 

Even in 2010 Ferrari had some problems (Renault @ 2009?) with their V8 and their solution was accepted by the FIA.

 

 

You can ask for a reliability upgrade on current and future components of course so it must be the FIA are viewing all the used Turbo's in Ferrari's pool as current.

 

That's the bit I've never heard of happening before but it's rare for teams to stockpile or rotate parts so far in these regs because of future development would be out of the question without penalties so maybe it's just never reared it's head before but Ferrari knew they had no performance upgrades coming from the Turbo this year so decided to do it this way instead.

 

Honda should be badgering the FIA as we speak for backdated reliability fixes to their h's bearings though, I don't know why they would be denied unless I'm having a brain fart and missing something obvious.

 

Honda doesn't have a fix for their MGU-H problems ?...they should come up with a solution before asking a favor from the FIA.

Edited by xtremeclock, 28 July 2017 - 21:52.

[MastaKink]

Gearbox is a different story.....it needs to last a specific amount of races.

 

We're talking about the engine, Ferrari lost most of their Turbos after a couple of races, thats not normal, a reliability fix was presented to FIA and they approved it, there is nothing extraordinary here, reliability fixes are allowed if they don't increase performance.

 

Even in 2010 Ferrari had some problems (Renault @ 2009?) with their V8 and their solution was accepted by the FIA.

 

That's kind of the point I think, they lost them so why are they allowed to go back and fix them so they're good as new again.

 

The only thing I can think of is that they technically never lost them so remain current and therefore eligible for a reliability fix, which would be more like a grey area or loophole than anything dodgy of course.

 

Basically getting off on a technicality. 

[Huffer]

Gearbox is a different story.....it needs to last a specific amount of races.

 

We're talking about the engine, Ferrari lost most of their Turbos after a couple of races, thats not normal, a reliability fix was presented to FIA and they approved it, there is nothing extraordinary here, reliability fixes are allowed if they don't increase performance.

 

It doesn't really matter what part of the power train we're talking about - the rules are pretty clear; no opening of currently used parts for repairs. If the fix is for parts not currently in use, then that's no problem and completely within the rules. 

If Ferrari have lost most of their turbos, then that's just too bad. The rules state that they can't fix them and that they have to cycle in more parts and take penalties if required. So this comes back to my original question; is it the turbos that were in circulation that were fixed or was it turbos that had not been used that were modified. If it's the latter, then that's all well and fine and I've misunderstood what has happened.

 

 

Even in 2010 Ferrari had some problems (Renault @ 2009?) with their V8 and their solution was accepted by the FIA.

 

The V8 rules were a different kettle of fish - and I believe that reliability upgrades appeared in fresh engines, not in engines that had already been used.

 

With Renault, it was supposedly a power upgrade that the teams all agreed to, which turned out to be something else in prep for the blown diffuser. Rather than giving the engine more power, Renault made it more fuel efficient (I think) to perform off-throttle blowing. 

[Jordan44]

Mercedes repaired Hamilton's fire-damaged Hungary 2014 engine under the reliability clause. There is no story here.

[MastaKink]

 

Gearbox is a different story.....it needs to last a specific amount of races.

 

We're talking about the engine, Ferrari lost most of their Turbos after a couple of races, thats not normal, a reliability fix was presented to FIA and they approved it, there is nothing extraordinary here, reliability fixes are allowed if they don't increase performance.

 

Even in 2010 Ferrari had some problems (Renault @ 2009?) with their V8 and their solution was accepted by the FIA.

 

 

 

Honda doesn't have a fix for their MGU-H problems ?...they should come up with a solution before asking a favor from the FIA.

 

 

They do now I believe so should be able to go back and fix them all right?.

[Huffer]

Mercedes repaired Hamilton's fire-damaged Hungary 2014 engine under the reliability clause. There is no story here.

 

They were able to rescue certain components - but that didn't involve opening them up and replacing internal things like bearings, pistons, brushes etc. 

 

The basic rule is no opening up of sealed components such as the MUG-H/K, ICE etc; not even for checking - the teams have to use non-destructive measures for checking such as x-ray. 

Edited by Huffer, 28 July 2017 - 22:06.

[MastaKink]

Mercedes repaired Hamilton's fire-damaged Hungary 2014 engine under the reliability clause. There is no story here.

 

Different story though.

[xtremeclock]

It doesn't really matter what part of the power train we're talking about - the rules are pretty clear; no opening of currently used parts for repairs. If the fix is for parts not currently in use, then that's no problem and completely within the rules. 

If Ferrari have lost most of their turbos, then that's just too bad. The rules state that they can't fix them and that they have to cycle in more parts and take penalties if required. So this comes back to my original question; is it the turbos that were in circulation that were fixed or was it turbos that had not been used that were modified. If it's the latter, then that's all well and fine and I've misunderstood what has happened.

 

 

The V8 rules were a different kettle of fish - and I believe that reliability upgrades appeared in fresh engines, not in engines that had already been used.

 

With Renault, it was supposedly a power upgrade that the teams all agreed to, which turned out to be something else in prep for the blown diffuser. Rather than giving the engine more power, Renault made it more fuel efficient (I think) to perform off-throttle blowing. 

 

Which rule ? could you please tell me ?

 

In a case by case basis the FIA decides when and how to apply the reliability clause if a team can show the "fix" won't give them some extra performance.

 

 

http://www.motorspor...lement-2016.pdf

 

Edited by xtremeclock, 28 July 2017 - 22:16.

[Huffer]

Which rule ? could you please tell me ?

 

In a case by case basis the FIA decides when and how to apply the reliability clause if a team can show the "fix" won't give them some extra performance.

 

Article 23 of the sporting regulations and Section 5 of the technical regulations. There's nothing there that specifies if the fix is for performance or reliability. I think your head is stuck in the old V8 era regulations.

 

Basically, Article 23 of the sporting regs and Section 5 of the Technical Regulations (along with Appendix 2) specify that all of the primary components must be sealed by the FIA and those seals cannot be broken. There are certain things than can be changed (such as spark plugs, filters etc) but opening up an already used turbo to replace the bearings for example, is not allowed. It doesn't matter WHY they are replacing the bearings, it's just not allowed at all.

 

If it's a turbo that the FIA hasn't sealed yet (it's not been used) then that's ok. But not a turbo that's been sealed and left the pitlane in a car - they have to use it until it goes pop, try to get along without it, or take a replacement at some point and incur a penalty.

 

Otherwise, there would have been no need for Hamilton to stockpile all those PU components last year. Merc could have just opened them up, told everybody it was for reliability only, and replaced the bits that had broken. 

 

** Edit **

 

Wr.t. the quoted reg; We're not in the engine homologation period though. That was at the start of the year. 
 

Edited by Huffer, 28 July 2017 - 22:37.

[MastaKink]

Found this clarification from Charlie in 2015 which mentions old and new part number references so seems like it's fine if they're still in the pool.

 

 

https://adamcooperf1...ility-upgrades/

 

 

 A Technical Directive from Charlie Whiting said: “All requests for changes to the homologated power unit for the purpose of improving reliability should be made to me in writing with copies to the FIA F1 Engine distribution group. All such requests, with supporting data where necessary, should be made at least eight days before the modified power unit is first used at an Event and must include:

 

“1. A complete explanation of the failure, this should not only include clear photographic evidence but also when and where the failure(s) occurred.

“2. Part number references for both old and new parts.

“3. Full drawings of any new or modified components. Any pictorial or CAD views should be represented with the same zoom and angle.

“4. Test and investigation results supporting the request where applicable.

“5. Any relevant supporting information from external suppliers.”

[Huffer]

Found this clarification from Charlie in 2015 which mentions old and new part number references so seems like it's fine if they're still in the pool.

 

 

But that seems to directly clash with the Sporting and Technical regs. If the part is sealed, it can't be modified. A part can probably be in the pool, but if it's been sealed and has not left the pitlane, then it can be opened up and modified and/or replaced under that clarification. 

Edited by Huffer, 28 July 2017 - 22:42.

[oetzi]

Iirc any reliability fixes have to be approved by the other engine manufacturers. So I guess they're ok with it.